On December 01 2011 11:59 TuElite wrote: Balancing across multiple levels lolololol that is so wrong.
I don't know how Blizzard handles balance issue but I sure do hope they don't do it according to "skill levels".
There is no skill levels. There is playing the game right and playing it wrong.
If you're not at the top of Masters league or beyond, you're playing it wrong and your game experience should be ignored and disregarded because you don't know wtf you're doing. That's how it should be balanced imo. lol multiple skill levels that makes me laugh and facepalm so munch.
Nice job being a jackass. Remember what % of players is top master and beyond ? 1% You really think Blizzard wants to waste their money for 1% of possible RTS players ? Sorry to wake you up from your snooze in Disney Land but this is a buisness. Besides, you really think those ppl who worked their asses off up to high masters would have done it if during this whole period of time they experienced a completely imbalanced game ?
Lol. So you want the game to return to the state is was this summer? Unwatchable? The only other time I remember this much bitching by terrans was before they lobbied to get rid of KA and the game was balanced after that.
On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote: Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races.
Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad.
User was temp banned for this post.
I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier.
It's not too late, seriously. Morrow changed races relatively late and has done well and TLO has just switched. If protoss is really that much easier then please prove it to everyone by switching and winning some top tournaments.
I'm seriously not taunting you- I would love to see a pro actually have the balls to do that. I think we would be able to settle this debate once and for all if that happened.
I won Kas and many other pro terrans with both zerg and protoss without knowing any build orders just by simply going ling/infestor and zealot/archon/colossus, I play offraces once every 2 weeks.
Now I know people will want to quote and say "switch then", thats not the point of this thread, point is what I wrote in other 2 posts I made.
On December 01 2011 11:58 Vei wrote: i would say the problem is more that
a) they can deny scouting easily
b) they have 12 combat units to zerg's 9 and protoss's 10
a) All the races can deny scouting easily. Stalkers run down workers no problem and Protoss can wall regardless. Zerg can use lings to keep scouts away as well. And before someone says "bu-but scan!" no good Terran player is going to scan in the early stages of the game. It isn't worth it.
b) Where are you getting 10? Zealot, stalker, sentry, high templar, dark templar, archon, immortal, colossus, phoenix, void ray, carrier, mothership, warp prism makes 13 units not counting observers since they don't serve a "direct" combat role.
not counter carrier or warp prism; carrier is never used warp prism i suppose now could be counted
On December 01 2011 11:59 TuElite wrote: Balancing across multiple levels lolololol that is so wrong.
I don't know how Blizzard handles balance issue but I sure do hope they don't do it according to "skill levels".
There is no skill levels. There is playing the game right and playing it wrong.
If you're not at the top of Masters league or beyond, you're playing it wrong and your game experience should be ignored and disregarded because you don't know wtf you're doing. That's how it should be balanced imo. lol multiple skill levels that makes me laugh and facepalm so munch.
Nice job being a jackass. Remember what % of players is top master and beyond ? 1% You really think Blizzard wants to waste their money for 1% of possible RTS players ? Sorry to wake you up from your snooze in Disney Land but this is a buisness. Besides, you really think those ppl who worked their asses off up to high masters would have done it if during this whole period of time they experienced a completely imbalanced game ?
You forgot the part about having the highest level of play be a legitimate spectator event brings Blizzard a shit load of exposure. Thats a huge part of business. The amount of imbalance at lower levels is pretty small, definitely small enough for casual players to ignore and buy the game anyway.
Sad for you.
Edit: And yes I think the people who worked their asses off up to high masters would have done it anyway. Thats what makes them high masters/grandmasters/professionals. They take the adversity and run with it. They run into hard times and they fight through it to get better instead of bitching and moaning. Remember when Zerg was considered to be by far the shittiest race in SC2? Fruitdealer won GSL1 anyway despite the pathetic metagame and general mood. Idra considered quitting because of it but just kept on going. Thats the difference between the pros and people like us
On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote: Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races.
Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad.
User was temp banned for this post.
I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier.
It's not too late, seriously. Morrow changed races relatively late and has done well and TLO has just switched. If protoss is really that much easier then please prove it to everyone by switching and winning some top tournaments.
I'm seriously not taunting you- I would love to see a pro actually have the balls to do that. I think we would be able to settle this debate once and for all if that happened.
I won Kas and many other pro terrans with both zerg and protoss without knowing any build orders just by simply going ling/infestor and zealot/archon/colossus, I play offraces once every 2 weeks.
Now I know people will want to quote and say "switch then", thats not the point of this thread, point is what I wrote in other 2 posts I made.
Nice to see some credible players being open about this. Hopefully it will become the consensus soon.
I don't know if anyone's highlighted this but if you take a look at the foreigner pool of Terran player's it's significantly smaller. Most notable NA and Euro pro players are either Zergs or Protoss.
Thorzain, DeMuslim, Drewbie, Sjow, Jinro, **TLO** are pretty much all of the pro Terran players that get their names thrown around regularly outside of the Koreans. If you think about it that's a meager sum since that number can almost be matched by an individual teams roster. I mean look at Liquid Ret, Sheth, Haypro, then add TLO, who's switched; and that team alone's already almost equaled the entire pool of named Terran players. With that it's actually no surprise that so many tournaments have lacked a foreign Terran breakout since the actual foreign Terran pool's so small.
I'm not saying you're not raising interesting details, but just like Korea has a massive swell of pro Terrans, I think NA and Europe have a tendency to find their most dedicated pros coming from Zerg's and Protoss.
I honestly find Terran to be the most diverse race in terms of build opportunities. I think their players are lacking behind if anything. The reason we don't see top terran foreigners is, in my eyes, because the top korean terrans are so good.
On December 01 2011 16:57 Testuser wrote: It's funny how you say this.
I honestly find Terran to be the most diverse race in terms of build opportunities. I think their players are lacking behind if anything. The reason we don't see top terran foreigners is, in my eyes, because the top korean terrans are so good.
so you're saying the korean zergs and protoss are bad?
I just hope that with HotS will blizzard get off this ridiculous idea that the game needs to be balanced at all skill levels with stupid, boring units like the Marauder for an example.
I hope that being that it is just an expansion and they are keeping the WoL ladder live and supported anyways they might as well go full force into making an epic esports no matter how difficult to play the game ends up being.
The more difficult the game sorta-ish = the better the esport if it is watchable because the more difficult it is the wider the skill gap between pros and noobs which means it makes it easier to distinguish the good players from the bad or even separate the top players and the legends.
the harder the game the means the more you can learn from practice means the more of a sport it can become.
I don't care how difficult to play Terran is in HotS i'm gunna play it regardless as long as i know it is balanced eventually at the pro level and pro terrans can somehow win games i will play and work hard to be just like my idols.
edit: i basically mean to say get rid of dumb units specifically designed to make the game easier and just go hardcore into cool ideas that would just make the game epic.
This thread is such a whine and I don't know how Teamliquid staff allows it. I mean to call other races easy and A-Movers is just ignorant and stupid. Sorry. Back it up with real facts. Show us videos from streams with battles to see what micro is so insanely done by the terrans.
Until you give me that let me remind you something: unmicroed units in tvp and terran ALWAYS wins. Microed units in tvp protoss wins most of the time. So guess what, the protoss has the hard time and requirement to micro to get the upper hand.
Now stop the whine and learn to play from the successful terrans.
On December 01 2011 16:45 synkronized wrote: Thorzain, DeMuslim, Drewbie, Sjow, Jinro, **TLO** are pretty much all of the pro Terran players that get their names thrown around regularly outside of the Koreans.
Maybe if you live in the US, but here in EU there are other popular Terrans:
Kas, Beastyqt, Major, Brat_OK, dde, Happy, Select, Strelok etc. The foreign scene isn't lacking in Terran players compared to P or Z.
On December 01 2011 17:10 ceaRshaf wrote: This thread is such a whine and I don't know how Teamliquid staff allows it. I mean to call other races easy and A-Movers is just ignorant and stupid. Sorry. Back it up with real facts. Show us videos from streams with battles to see what micro is so insanely done by the terrans.
Until you give me that let me remind you something: unmicroed units in tvp and terran ALWAYS wins. Microed units in tvp protoss wins most of the time. So guess what, the protoss has the hard time and requirement to micro to get the upper hand.
Now stop the whine and learn to play from the successful terrans.
how can you write a post like that and call anyone ignorant and stupid..... it's blatantly obvious terran micros a crap ton in tvp whereas it definitely can appear like the protoss death ball is just a-move because in reality aside from keeping the collosus alive and focus firing...it's really all you have to do whereas the Terran cannot fight a protoss army straight on he has to maneuver his vikings to kill the collossi while stutter stepping back to avoid damage while dealing damage because terran units are squishy as heck especially when facing a collosus beam.
On December 01 2011 16:45 synkronized wrote: Thorzain, DeMuslim, Drewbie, Sjow, Jinro, **TLO** are pretty much all of the pro Terran players that get their names thrown around regularly outside of the Koreans.
Maybe if you live in the US, but here in EU there are other popular Terrans:
Kas, Beastyqt, Major, Brat_OK, dde, Happy, Select, Strelok etc. The foreign scene isn't lacking in Terran players compared to P or Z.
when was the last time ANY of the players you just named did something like win an MLG or Dreamhack that had korean players in it. hmm? I don't know much about minor weekly tournaments other than the korean weekly but i know for a fact that non of those players have had an achievement worth talking about int he community. not any foreign terran. not since thorzain in TSL3 which nobody even talks about anymore.
On December 01 2011 17:10 ceaRshaf wrote: This thread is such a whine and I don't know how Teamliquid staff allows it. I mean to call other races easy and A-Movers is just ignorant and stupid. Sorry. Back it up with real facts. Show us videos from streams with battles to see what micro is so insanely done by the terrans.
Until you give me that let me remind you something: unmicroed units in tvp and terran ALWAYS wins. Microed units in tvp protoss wins most of the time. So guess what, the protoss has the hard time and requirement to micro to get the upper hand.
Now stop the whine and learn to play from the successful terrans.
"unmicroed units in TvP and Terran ALWAYS wins"- the most stupid thing i've ever heard. a-move vs a-move, protoss absolutely CRUSHES terran in a 200/200 battle.
This thread's already been talked to death, but I agree that there is a severe lack of good foreign Terrans. Just look at the featured TL stream ANY time of day. It's usually about 60% zerg, 30% protoss, and 10% terran. And that's not because terrans don't stream, it's just that there aren't that many to begin with.
Meanwhile in Korea there's a gajillion ultra-gosu terrans that roflstomp everyone on the korean ladder and the GSL. It's no wonder Blizzard nerfs terran if the top players in the world are mostly terran. I for one play terran and of the my main reasons for doing is that terran is so underplayed on the NA server.
I still don't understand this whole rant. You are saying that it's hard to balance terran because... ...there's a higher skill ceiling which makes korean play better...because koreans are more skilled....
Isn't that the point? More skill-->more wins?
Who cares if the foreigners are not doing well with Terrans.
On December 01 2011 17:23 Jacuzzi wrote: This thread's already been talked to death, but I agree that there is a severe lack of good foreign Terrans. Just look at the featured TL stream ANY time of day. It's usually about 60% zerg, 30% protoss, and 10% terran. And that's not because terrans don't stream, it's just that there aren't that many to begin with.
There are currently 2 T (Drewbie and Beastyqt) and a Z (TLO), that alone proves this (anecdotal, and in my experience dead wrong) argument wrong.
I think we should give it another 2-3 months and see how all the results stack up in foreigh/korean tournaments. I want to see if this trend changes direction or if it continues and why.
EPT
