|
On November 16 2011 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament that he was sent to represent his team, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh. Let me help. Re-read my edit of your post and understand why I don't approve of their juvenile delinquent actions. Both of them had no regard of being team representatives and thought lightly of the tournament, their responsibilities to the team and duty to their fans to put their best foot forward. It shows in their conduct: - Openly telling their opponent they'll let them win, - Leaving after their opponent calls them out for not letting them win, - Submits the replay to the tournament organiser openly stating that they treat the tournament as a practice game - ESV TV Korean Weekly aka iCCup TV, they have 2,195,628 Views. That's a lot of visibility for any sponsor when considering to sponsor a team. It is truly a headdesk moment, like calling out to your friend/neighbour "HERE LOOK AT MY PAPER" in a CCTV monitored exam.
Ohh I was under the oppression that he just joined himself. I had no idea he was sent by slayers to represent them. I thought he just signed up to an online tournament as tournament practice. That makes sense why slayers is being so harsh then.
|
On November 16 2011 17:33 NipponBanzai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament that he was sent to represent his team, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh. Let me help. Re-read my edit of your post and understand why I don't approve of their juvenile delinquent actions. Both of them had no regard of being team representatives and thought lightly of the tournament, their responsibilities to the team and duty to their fans to put their best foot forward. It shows in their conduct: - Openly telling their opponent they'll let them win, - Leaving after their opponent calls them out for not letting them win, - Submits the replay to the tournament organiser openly stating that they treat the tournament as a practice game - ESV TV Korean Weekly aka iCCup TV, they have 2,195,628 Views. That's a lot of visibility for any sponsor when considering to sponsor a team. It is truly a headdesk moment, like calling out to your friend/neighbour "HERE LOOK AT MY PAPER" in a CCTV monitored exam. Ohh I was under the oppression that he just joined himself. I had no idea he was sent by slayers to represent them. I thought he just signed up to an online tournament as tournament practice. That makes sense why slayers is being so harsh then.
rofl, what a bullshit quote. he is representing slayers because he is a team member. they didn't SEND him to compete in an online tourney, he signed up himself to play for practise while his teammates where busy at another LAN event...
|
On November 16 2011 17:36 fleeze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 17:33 NipponBanzai wrote:On November 16 2011 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament that he was sent to represent his team, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh. Let me help. Re-read my edit of your post and understand why I don't approve of their juvenile delinquent actions. Both of them had no regard of being team representatives and thought lightly of the tournament, their responsibilities to the team and duty to their fans to put their best foot forward. It shows in their conduct: - Openly telling their opponent they'll let them win, - Leaving after their opponent calls them out for not letting them win, - Submits the replay to the tournament organiser openly stating that they treat the tournament as a practice game - ESV TV Korean Weekly aka iCCup TV, they have 2,195,628 Views. That's a lot of visibility for any sponsor when considering to sponsor a team. It is truly a headdesk moment, like calling out to your friend/neighbour "HERE LOOK AT MY PAPER" in a CCTV monitored exam. Ohh I was under the oppression that he just joined himself. I had no idea he was sent by slayers to represent them. I thought he just signed up to an online tournament as tournament practice. That makes sense why slayers is being so harsh then. rofl, what a bullshit quote. he is representing slayers because he is a team member. they didn't SEND him to compete in an online tourney, he signed up himself to play for practise while his teammates where busy at another LAN event...
Huh? He specifically edited my post and said "that he was sent to represent his team". I was just responding to that...
Edit: Nvm I misread what you said.
|
On November 16 2011 12:02 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 11:44 figq wrote:On November 16 2011 11:26 Oktyabr wrote:On November 16 2011 11:17 hawthwang wrote:
For people who says that Coca can go to another team, he can't, he just caused a scandal that hasn't happened once in a while, which team will accept him? Foreigner teams, because they don't mind about this type of behavior that much. But Coca obviously took this punishment like a man. He's willing to pay this price to stay on Slayers. On November 16 2011 11:24 1Eris1 wrote:
Hmm. I'm curious, why the hell did Coca not have practice partners available? Shit, the kid was on his first run into Code S, you'd think he'd get preference.
And I mean MMA had two zergs in his group, wouldn't it have been good for them to practice? -.- It is actually his second run, but MMA and co were at another event. He could still have hooked up customs with other ex Zenex people instead. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15His route ahead showed that he's in for a bunch of Code B terrans, except for Taeja. He can't honestly consider that real practice either. I honestly doubt that it was his intent to use this tournament for vT practice. What was his intent then? Do you realize that he could have just forfeited the match without playing and without sending replays, and Byun would have advanced anyway with no trouble for anyone. I don't see the intent then. The intent was clearly to play 3 games vs Byun in a tournament environment, because Byun is Terran and Coca needed that ZvT practice before his all-Terran GSL group, just as he says in chat. So if this were a High school football televised local tournament for a $100 trophy and the coach says during half-time, "I'll let them win, the other coach and I go way back and besides we need the practice" and with a 50 pt lead their team leaves the pitch. You are okay with this... However, I'm sure the spectators, parents and the charity would be having raging fits and with pitchforks demand the coaches resignation... And be a huge national news. This is not a live game. It's from replays. If they had any agenda, they could have not sent any replays. Just report that Coca forfeits the match. Forfeiting due to scheduling conflicts happens all the time and is normal.
So the only reason for playing those games was exactly what Coca says in chat - he needed that ZvT practice for his Terran group, in the absence of his Terran teammates. In this sense the games he played with Byun were more of a training session. But they sent the replays anyway, which was a bit disrespectful to the event. And the event banned them until January. Fair and square. The followup reaction by the GSL and their teams was very rushed and probably even less thoughtful than what the two young players did.
|
From my iPhone so I can't quote to figq,
The respective team's reaction tell the opposite story. If it was a "friendly" tournament as you claim, why'd every stakeholder go ape shit? Why did use their team IDs if it was friendly?
The reactions of their team, organizers and fan base are telling who is telling the truth.
|
On November 16 2011 18:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From my iPhone so I can't quote to figq,
The respective team's reaction tell the opposite story. If it was a "friendly" tournament as you claim, why'd every stakeholder go ape shit? Why did use their team IDs if it was friendly?
The reactions of their team, organizers and fan base are telling who is telling the truth. What? Please read my post when you have time. It's not a friendly (??) tournament, and it's not about the size of the tournament either. The games are not played live, that's the point. The match can be reported as forfeit, without sending replays.
The reactions of their teams were rushed, almost instant. You can see from the comments made that there was no time to properly investigate what actually happened. The managers assumed there was "match-fixing" and acted accordingly, whereas there was no such thing, just a forfeit due to schedule conflict, which happens all the time.
I think Coca should be compensated for being robbed of his Code S position for which he worked so hard.
|
On November 16 2011 18:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
From my iPhone so I can't quote to figq,
The respective team's reaction tell the opposite story. If it was a "friendly" tournament as you claim, why'd every stakeholder go ape shit? Why did use their team IDs if it was friendly?
The reactions of their team, organizers and fan base are telling who is telling the truth.
Just look at the recent ESV results (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15). it is a very competitive tournament that all players take VERY seriously... </sarcasm>
maybe you should listen to the fans that actually SAW the incident, instead of the angry mob shouting burn the witch?
On November 16 2011 07:05 common_cider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:50 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:44 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:37 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Ruining pro-gamers careers with ridiculous over-reactions is killing esports. Not some 17 year old kid throwing a game. I am aware that these are just kids and I do feel pitty but I still think this is unacceptable. A 'pro-gamer' should not insult fans who watch the game anticipating good game. Sure many players fail to entertain but there is difference doing it unintentionally and doing it on purpose, not to mention showing it to viewers witout shame or guilt. I agree it's unacceptable but I think the punishment in this case (essentially destroying his career) is also unacceptable. An apology and reprimand by SlayerS would have been enough to get the message across. I viewed this broadcast live, and what I can say is that I enjoyed the games, and both players played their hardest to win during the game. It was only after Coca had clearly won that he left the game. Plus, I got to see an extra ZvT between Byun and Coca. Match fixing is where you in secret purposely lose. Both players tried their hardest to win. To me this is matter of when a match is already decided, are you allowed to give your opponent the win.
|
|
|
Shouldn't IdrA be banned from every SC2 event for leaving early when he was ahead?
|
Why Byung didn't told Coca before the game to "let him win"? No one would have proof about that and now they are gonna be punished... But I will tell that. If someone WANTS to leave a game, then he CAN leave and loose.
Don't you also think that maybe this have been happedned again? Maybe some players loose a game to help their opponents.
f.e. A terran can do a fake failed 1/1/1 all in vs a toss. Or a toss oppened with DT and terran know about it and throw turrets.
I can blame player for "helping" other player cause I think that this may have happend even before and in major tournaments.
|
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series?
|
On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers cause they'd already qualified (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series?
Because this match-fixing incident was done in our faces.
Big difference.
Edit: The legality of Match-fixing has nothing to with secrecy or its returns.
No different than playing online tournaments that your sister signed up for under her name and image; she's the opponent that others are supposed to face, not you. Your well-intentions to "practice" in tournaments and help your sister does not change the fact that she was cheating.
Would you likely to have faced any penalties? No.
Why? Because evidence is impossible to procure. How could anyone prove before a judge that it was you playing and not your sister? Both live under the same roof and likely the same IP address. She could claim she was in good spirits and comfortable in her surroundings which is why she played better from home than before the judge and jury.
The evidence of both Byun and CoCa colluding to match-fix and carrying it out was recorded and presented to anyone who watches the VODs or replays. A crime in-progress does not make it less of a crime.
|
On November 16 2011 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers cause they'd already qualified (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series? Because this match-fixing incident was done in our faces. Big difference.
That doesn't warrant the massive amount of hate for a simple mistake. People are overreacting far too much. No need to crucify CoCa, or Byun (though I see less of Byun hate) for that matter. Yes CoCa definitely should be reprimanded harshly. But he shouldn't be treated like sAviOr is. What sAviOr did is unforgivable. It was malicious and done for personal gain. CoCa threw one game for fun and cause he wanted to play another game. It was childish and stupid, but definitely not malicious. He should be treated like an immature kid who made a mistake that is easily forgiven, not like sAviOr.
|
On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series?
The reason is difrence in view on esports in korea and in the west.
In korea Esports is a serious buisness... (yeah i know how that sounds)
A pro player was cought red handed throwing away a game - the pro who should always be competetive in tournaments.
In korea match-fixing (that includes throwing away games when asked by oponent) is a big no no... Teams had to temporary ban players from tournaments to save their face (well theirs and the players) Both Coca and Byun are in repent state now (similar to puting ash on your head). Thats why Coca had forfeit his Code S. If he didn't do it he would be kicked from Slayers and no other korean team would be willing to take him in. If the foreign team would pick him that team would have a stigma in korea.
And now back to western esports.
Its still isn't viewed as a real job by most of the populace. Also teams usually dont care about the manner ofthe players as long as they have their fans. Everyone is lentient for example with Idra and his ingame BM of oponents cause he has the one of the biggest fanbases. So tournament admins and teams are turning a blind eye on some of those players actions. Even the instances of cheating are forgiven in western esport world.
To sum it up. If those weren't korean players on a korean team there would be no penalty from the teams (or the penalty would be symbolical).
Diffrent cultural values are showing.
|
On November 16 2011 19:46 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:29 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers cause they'd already qualified (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series? Because this match-fixing incident was done in our faces. Big difference. That doesn't warrant the massive amount of hate for a simple mistake. People are overreacting far too much. No need to crucify CoCa, or Byun (though I see less of Byun hate) for that matter. Yes CoCa definitely should be reprimanded harshly. But he shouldn't be treated like sAviOr is. What sAviOr did is unforgivable. It was malicious and done for personal gain. CoCa threw one game for fun and cause he wanted to play another game. It was childish and stupid, but definitely not malicious. He should be treated like an immature kid who made a mistake that is easily forgiven, not like sAviOr.
Which is why he's still on the team just not in the training house.
Which is why he "voluntarily" withdrew from Code S rather than face the music from the governing body, which could have resulted in a permanent ban. Better to be thrashed by your dad than possibly be lynched by the mob, imho.
|
On November 16 2011 19:51 Frankon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series? The reason is difrence in view on esports in korea and in the west. In korea Esports is a serious buisness... (yeah i know how that sounds) A pro player was cought red handed throwing away a game - the pro who should always be competetive in tournaments. In korea match-fixing (that includes throwing away games when asked by oponent) is a big no no... Teams had to temporary ban players from tournaments to save their face (well theirs and the players) Both Coca and Byun are in repent state now (similar to puting ash on your head). Thats why Coca had forfeit his Code S. If he didn't do it he would be kicked from Slayers and no other korean team would be willing to take him in. If the foreign team would pick him that team would have a stigma in korea. And now back to western esports. Its still isn't viewed as a real job by most of the populace. Also teams usually dont care about the manner ofthe players as long as they have their fans. Everyone is lentient for example with Idra and his ingame BM of oponents cause he has the one of the biggest fanbases. So tournament admins and teams are turning a blind eye on some of those players actions. Even the instances of cheating are forgiven in western esport world. To sum it up. If those weren't korean players on a korean team there would be no penalty from the teams (or the penalty would be symbolical). Diffrent cultural values are showing.
The team reactions are different of course. Obviously. I was more wondering why TL's reaction to CoCa's is so harsh but Demuslim throwing an entire match is disregarded.
|
On November 16 2011 19:55 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:51 Frankon wrote:On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series? The reason is difrence in view on esports in korea and in the west. In korea Esports is a serious buisness... (yeah i know how that sounds) A pro player was cought red handed throwing away a game - the pro who should always be competetive in tournaments. In korea match-fixing (that includes throwing away games when asked by oponent) is a big no no... Teams had to temporary ban players from tournaments to save their face (well theirs and the players) Both Coca and Byun are in repent state now (similar to puting ash on your head). Thats why Coca had forfeit his Code S. If he didn't do it he would be kicked from Slayers and no other korean team would be willing to take him in. If the foreign team would pick him that team would have a stigma in korea. And now back to western esports. Its still isn't viewed as a real job by most of the populace. Also teams usually dont care about the manner ofthe players as long as they have their fans. Everyone is lentient for example with Idra and his ingame BM of oponents cause he has the one of the biggest fanbases. So tournament admins and teams are turning a blind eye on some of those players actions. Even the instances of cheating are forgiven in western esport world. To sum it up. If those weren't korean players on a korean team there would be no penalty from the teams (or the penalty would be symbolical). Diffrent cultural values are showing. The team reactions are different of course. Obviously. I was more wondering why TL's reaction to CoCa's is so harsh but Demuslim throwing an entire match is disregarded.
Wasn't TL reaction more in line - He didn't do anything wrong, he wanted to practice, its only a small online cup, he should change teams cause they treated him harsh, teams were to harsh on its players, GOM shouldn't ban him...
Thats whats most people basically wrote in this thread. The GOM part is especially interesting cause it shows that people cannot read andjust skim som parts.
|
On November 16 2011 19:55 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 19:51 Frankon wrote:On November 16 2011 19:24 Femari wrote:
So why aren't people crucifying the foreigners who have blatantly thrown games in qualifiers (IdrA/Demuslim)? Why is there only so much hate for CoCa who threw one game while others have thrown series? The reason is difrence in view on esports in korea and in the west. In korea Esports is a serious buisness... (yeah i know how that sounds) A pro player was cought red handed throwing away a game - the pro who should always be competetive in tournaments. In korea match-fixing (that includes throwing away games when asked by oponent) is a big no no... Teams had to temporary ban players from tournaments to save their face (well theirs and the players) Both Coca and Byun are in repent state now (similar to puting ash on your head). Thats why Coca had forfeit his Code S. If he didn't do it he would be kicked from Slayers and no other korean team would be willing to take him in. If the foreign team would pick him that team would have a stigma in korea. And now back to western esports. Its still isn't viewed as a real job by most of the populace. Also teams usually dont care about the manner ofthe players as long as they have their fans. Everyone is lentient for example with Idra and his ingame BM of oponents cause he has the one of the biggest fanbases. So tournament admins and teams are turning a blind eye on some of those players actions. Even the instances of cheating are forgiven in western esport world. To sum it up. If those weren't korean players on a korean team there would be no penalty from the teams (or the penalty would be symbolical). Diffrent cultural values are showing. The team reactions are different of course. Obviously. I was more wondering why TL's reaction to CoCa's is so harsh but Demuslim throwing an entire match is disregarded.
I am guessing because EG do not value sportsmanship enough to enforce it. I mean... they have Evil in the team name... They certainly live up to it, imo
|
On November 16 2011 18:40 mrjpark wrote:
Shouldn't IdrA be banned from every SC2 event for leaving early when he was ahead?
IdrA leaving early has nothing to do with this
|
Majority saying they deserve life time ban, with only a handful saying the current punishment is enough. I haven't seen any response saying this was too much. There's so much ugly hatred and threats toward the two involved that it doesn't deserve any translation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
