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On November 16 2011 14:35 LaGTTJack wrote:
Overblown situation, this is not max fixing to the same degree as savior or any of the others. These people threw a small online tournament and if anyone should give them the disciplines it should be GOM and not the teams. I'm actually disappointed in Slayers for the first time since they were founded on SC2. At least give the kids a freaking warning for Christ's sake.
You've got to be kidding me. Both Prime and Slayers did the right thing by swiftly delivering reprimands because it allows them to maintain control their own players' future.
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On the one hand, I'm glad the teams handled this on their own and CoCa resigned his spot instead of being kicked out. Still, my sympathy goes to CoCa and I wish him the best. Hopefully he and the team will be able to recover from this mistake.
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paradoxical that coca is so smart in sc2 but yet is clearly so dumb att he same time :S
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On November 16 2011 14:35 LaGTTJack wrote:
Overblown situation, this is not max fixing to the same degree as savior or any of the others. These people threw a small online tournament and if anyone should give them the disciplines it should be GOM and not the teams. I'm actually disappointed in Slayers for the first time since they were founded on SC2. At least give the kids a freaking warning for Christ's sake.
You must be joking; what they did was exploit the current mechanics of the tournament. The size of the tournament does not matter due to representation they adhere to. When you are playing competitively in a field that is still growing, how one acts it quite important. Especially if they are part of a team. The players are representatives of their teams and their sport. So of course, they need to be made an example of for this sort of behavior (especially since events such as Savior took place, preventing that from happening again is very important).
Slayer was in the right to discipline in this manner, it shows that this behavior is not acceptable in the pro scene and they will be held accountable. Furthermore, they were not stripped or kicked out of the team. Suspension is far better than completely being removed from a team. Look to it as a form of justice and mercy.
One last note which I thought was fitting due to some people's defense; "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".
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On November 16 2011 14:03 BronzeKnee wrote:
It always disgusts me that every time someone does something awful, whether it be sexual harassing people, scamming people out of money, or match fixing whatever, that all these people come out of the woodwork to defend them.
I don't think somebody who has lost money due to a scandal or been sexually harassed would put match fixing ESPECIALLY of this level on the same terms.
What you are saying is that it isn't the intention that matter, it is the result of the action that matters. It has been proven many times that this outlook is wrong, the classic philosophical scenario being as follows:
Imagine a man is helping his young son shower, and he accidentally drops the soap on the shower floor and his son slips on it and dies. Now imagine that another man wants to kill his young son while showering him and purposely drops the soap on the floor so he will slip and then his son slips on it and dies. Now assuming you knew the intentions of both men and the whole story, should one, both or neither be punished?
It is not obvious?
IdrA didn't leave the GSL to give free wins to anyone, and the GSL could have replaced him, they choose not to. These two purposely fixed matches to give free wins. Both resulted in people getting free wins, but it is indeed the intentions that matter. These two intended to cheat. And cheating is wrong.
You are right, but I don't see how you can claim premeditation when clearly they worked it out in the middle of a game and didn't think it would be a big thing. That's like the man intentionally dropping the soap and unintentionally killing his son, it's incredibly stupid, but there was no harm meant by it. Should he still be punished? Yes! But not to the extent that somebody who intentionally killed somebody should be...
There can be no logically sound and valid defense of their actions.
From what I can tell, nobody is defending what they did. Everybody admits it's stupid, but what bothers me is that so many people who have no say in what happens and rightfully shouldn't (unless it goes completely unpunished or extremely over punished) are popping up left and right calling for this kid's head. He made a mistake, I seriously doubt anybody is saying that he didn't, it's obnoxious to see people being so critical. It's as if people are trying to prove how much they care about "esports" by showing no compassion what-so-ever and saying that we can't stand for this, when in reality it's like shooting a sheep who bares it's teeth pretending to be a wolf when there are probably twenty wolves in the surrounding bushes.
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There can be no logically sound and valid defense of their actions.
Can you share your definition of defense?
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On November 16 2011 14:34 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 13:49 iMYoonA wrote:On November 16 2011 12:07 DrainX wrote:
I don't really have a problem with people match fixing as long as there is no gambling money involved. It would be classier to not say anything or just to not play the matches. The difference between this and Idra leaving GSL after taking part in the group selection ceremony, giving a free win to someone in his group really isn't that big. Or any of the players in NASL season 1 who missed one of their matches because they were sick or were busy in other tournaments. Of course it is sad if one of the players gives a walkover to the other player late in a tournament and we don't get to see the games, but I don't think the players should get punished for it. How are games fun when you know people aren't trying their best and outcomes are decided beforehand such that you aren't seeing the upper echelon of play? Prime example is the All star's from GOM. It had a fun premise but once games started being thrown it became stale quick (not including the offrace games). That being said, the punishment in this particular instance is too harsh, and it is probably so that there aren't more thrown games. I mean come on, Nestea throwing that game v HuK, even if not match fixing intentional, completely ruined the day yesterday. But if you watched the three games they played, both players tried their best in all three of them, and CoCa just wanted another match to practice in a high stress environment. He wasn't deliberately throwing a game, he just allowed Byun "to win" in order to get another game.
What the fuck do you consider to be 'deliberately throwing a game' if consciously leaving a game after deliberation with the other player isn't that? HE LET BYUN WIN. HE GAVE THE WIN TO HIM ON PURPOSE.
Coca left to get another practice game in a high stress environment? Where did you come up with that nonsense?
Regardless of Coca's intentions, he was 'at work' doing his job. He is a pro player who was at a pro tournament for $ and he acted unprofessionally -- arguably stupidly.
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Hard to say about Coca given there was no Code A spot available
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Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh.
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The thing is this: There was no malicious intent involved in either player's actions. This was a game that clearly, by the way they were chatting about, they didn't care about, and was not a serious matter. If you read Mr. Chae's statement, he doesn't single out the match fixing, but rather the profanity used as a reason that their actions were shameful. It was two players who weren't thinking about what they were doing, weren't taking it seriously, and OPENLY made a stupid decision, rather than some pre-made collaboration.
That said, the punishments suit the players. Slayers has to come off as hard asses or they will act like they condone their players, so they punish Coca and Byun. The tourney was embarrassed by their actions, so both are out of the tournament, and prohibited from competing in future tournaments. The losing of the Code S spot is a pre-emptive punishment to avoid further punishment from GSL (happens all the time in college sports), where most likely Coca's going to forfeit his Code S and A slot, and get the Rain punishment of being banned from competition for two months, thus he'll have to requalify. The punishments aren't death sentences and suitable to the crime, which was committed, but due to really any lack of malicious intent or forward thinking, everything should be forgiven in a month or two when they come back.
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On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh.
GOMTV would have been 3 times as harsh on them, the team coaches and manager pulling them saved there career or whatever is left of it and maybe in a year or two they will be able to get back to where they should be at the moment.
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On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh.
Maybe. But as a fan of CoCa myself, I would almost rather see a punishment that's too harsh than not harsh enough, lest people rag on him for getting off easy from something that's obviously wrong.
The guy's young, and it seems to me like it's being handled relatively well. Stuff like this you want to nip in the bud quickly before it happens in a more important match. I just hope that SlayerS doesn't blow this out of proportion (not comfortable about that hope), and that CoCa can get back to competing in GSL before too long.
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On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh.
When you are in a team led by Boxer, and you know what his values are in e-sports and what he stands for, and you pull off such an amature and stupid move like that? I personally think Coca's punishment was just right, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out if Boxer wanted to kick him out completely.
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I probably think this was an honest mistake.
Coca already being code S. probably talked with byung about his match.
Came up with some kind of arrangement where Cocoa would forfeit his matches.
Forgetting about the whole code of conduct.
Sharing is good, but be fair.
In my opinion, Honest mistake. Nothing too serious to look into, have a great afternoon south africa.
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Let's just say it was lucky that they got punished for THIS, instead of like MLG or something bigger where I could Imagine COCA giving up spots
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On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament that he was sent to represent his team, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh.
Let me help. Re-read my edit of your post and understand why I don't approve of their juvenile delinquent actions.
Both of them had no regard of being team representatives and thought lightly of the tournament, their responsibilities to the team and duty to their fans to put their best foot forward.
It shows in their conduct:
- Openly telling their opponent they'll let them win,
- Leaving after their opponent calls them out for not letting them win,
- Submits the replay to the tournament organiser openly stating that they treat the tournament as a practice game
- ESV TV Korean Weekly aka iCCup TV, they have 2,195,628 Views. That's a lot of visibility for any sponsor when considering to sponsor a team.
It is truly a headdesk moment, like calling out to your friend/neighbour "HERE LOOK AT MY PAPER" in a CCTV monitored exam.
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I also think it was an honest mistake. Think of it this way. Coca could have just quit the tournament, giving Byun a Bye. Instead, he played the games to give players some entertainment. I think he was just helping out his friend and didn't think of the consequences. What matters most is always intentions.
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On November 16 2011 17:01 Disastorm wrote:
I also think it was an honest mistake. Think of it this way. Coca could have just quit the tournament, giving Byun a Bye. Instead, he played the games to give players some entertainment. I think he was just helping out his friend and didn't think of the consequences. What matters most is always intentions.
Look at it this way, SlayerS team reps will help Prime team reps in minor league tournaments if they are friends.
Because it is good to help friends and helping friends is always good, no?
*double face palm*
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On November 16 2011 17:01 Disastorm wrote:
I also think it was an honest mistake. Think of it this way. Coca could have just quit the tournament, giving Byun a Bye. Instead, he played the games to give players some entertainment. I think he was just helping out his friend and didn't think of the consequences. What matters most is always intentions.
Is that before or after you arrive in hell?
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On November 16 2011 16:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 16:21 NipponBanzai wrote:
Hmmm this is issue is confusing for me. I thought the problem with match throwing at least in things like boxing was because of betting. If someone pays a player to throw a game because they have money riding on the match, it is obviously wrong. If a player throws a match because he doesn't really care about the tournament that he was sent to represent his team, is it still as bad? I don't know. Still think that Coca's punishment was way too harsh. Let me help. Re-read my edit of your post and understand why I don't approve of their juvenile delinquent actions. Both of them had no regard of being team representatives and thought lightly of the tournament, their responsibilities to the team and duty to their fans to put their best foot forward. It shows in their conduct: - Openly telling their opponent they'll let them win, - Leaving after their opponent calls them out for not letting them win, - Submits the replay to the tournament organiser openly stating that they treat the tournament as a practice game - ESV TV Korean Weekly aka iCCup TV, they have 2,195,628 Views. That's a lot of visibility for any sponsor when considering to sponsor a team. It is truly a headdesk moment, like calling out to your friend/neighbour "HERE LOOK AT MY PAPER" in a CCTV monitored exam.
ESV Korean Weekly is a minor tourney (that's the nature of most "weeklys"). total viewers says nothing at all.
and maybe read some posts of people that have seen this "incident":
On November 16 2011 07:05 common_cider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:50 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:44 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:37 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Ruining pro-gamers careers with ridiculous over-reactions is killing esports. Not some 17 year old kid throwing a game. I am aware that these are just kids and I do feel pitty but I still think this is unacceptable. A 'pro-gamer' should not insult fans who watch the game anticipating good game. Sure many players fail to entertain but there is difference doing it unintentionally and doing it on purpose, not to mention showing it to viewers witout shame or guilt. I agree it's unacceptable but I think the punishment in this case (essentially destroying his career) is also unacceptable. An apology and reprimand by SlayerS would have been enough to get the message across. I viewed this broadcast live, and what I can say is that I enjoyed the games, and both players played their hardest to win during the game. It was only after Coca had clearly won that he left the game. Plus, I got to see an extra ZvT between Byun and Coca. Match fixing is where you in secret purposely lose. Both players tried their hardest to win. To me this is matter of when a match is already decided, are you allowed to give your opponent the win.
i don't get how a forfeit would have been better then at least playing the match out and then forfeiting. if the viewer quoted above is honest it was actually a good game and he just forfeited after winning. giving the viewers an extra game.
it should be obvious that this is not an intention to cheat and saying "match fixing" and comparisons to savior are totally out of place...
hell i dont' even understand why ESV wouldn't just say after the match that it was just practise. there are more then enough forfeits in the ESVs already. just take a look at the tourney itself... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15:
6! matches out of the 16 have been played in the first round... byun vs coca are one of the 6 matches played.... punishment for such a nonsense is retarded. they should actually be rewarded by ESV cuz they played at least, so they had some games to show AT ALL...
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EPT
