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What, the fuck? This is quite possibly the the dumbest thing I have ever heard of someone doing in esports. Like if you're going to matchfix, ok, (NOT ok actually) but to just openly discuss you're going to do it in the game in question and not even try to disguise it by playing badly to throw the game instead of just gging when you're triple the supply, I have to question your intelligence.
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On November 16 2011 09:59 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:31 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 08:59 figq wrote:On November 16 2011 08:50 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:On November 16 2011 02:08 Emma Watson wrote:
Extremely disappointed in Boxer. As the wise mentor of team Slayers you would expect him to be strict, but also to be lenient and forgiving. Handing out such harsh punishment to a kid like Coca....I don't know, I imagined Boxer to be a White-Ra/Gandalf-like person who takes the context of Coca's actions into account and judges accordingly.
Boxer's reaction to this whole thing was equivalent to a overly eager dad who catches his son stealing a candybar and proceeds to beat the shit out of him, so the other parents don't think he is a bad father.
I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career? Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans. Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol Yeah I was agreeing with you, hence why I said 'to add to that' :o On November 16 2011 05:51 IPA wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:
[quote]
What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career?
Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans.
Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol I couldn't disagree more. I made countless mistakes at age 18, even into my early 20s. I suppose you guys were ministers by then. It's old enough to take responsibility (which they are doing); it's young enough to make it semi-understandable. Jesus, did you guys ever have fun or get into trouble? There's a huge difference between 'never had fun' and 'does not cheat in professional sports'. Comparing the two is hilariously fallacious. Do you call forfeit cheating? Because pretty much everybody forfeits when they have busy schedules, which is the case here. The manner of doing it was disrespectful to the Korean Weekly -> so they both got ban from the Weekly until January, which is fair. Anything beyond that seems pretty unnecessary, especially the Code S withdrawal. Is this confirmed? The OP set it out as forfeiting for the main aim of giving Byun the win, rather than letting Byun have the win for the main aim of not being able to compete. If Coca was playing the games, clearly his schedule was not an issue, no? Obviously the intent and primary goal of forfeiting determines whether it is cheating - whether you want your opponent to win, or merely allow it to happen. I'll repost the quotes again. Coca was using this tournament environment to practice vs Terran (Byun is Terran), but the next opponent was Protoss anyway, and Coca had to focus on his all-Terran GSL group. He forfeited game 2 which he undeniably won (no pretense, no attempt to act like losing it - he just gg and leave after clearly winning) - in order to play a 3rd game vs Byun. That allows him one more ZvT game experience as preparation. He could have just forfeited the whole match, and they could have just not sent the replays, treating them as custom practice between them, and nobody would have said anything bad about it, as players forfeit all the time due to busy schedule. They disrespected the Korean Weekly by sending the replays, and assuming it won't be such a big deal that Coca openly forfeits and the games are essentially more like a training session. But either way, if Coca didn't play at all, Byun would have advanced anyway, so it didn't matter. As viewers, most of us enjoyed their play, because it was entirely competitive, with the difference that Coca gg'd and left in the end of game 2 after winning it, demanding a 3rd game. As promised, the quotes: + Show Spoiler [Mr Chae's statements] + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=4#76On November 15 2011 13:35 Clefairy wrote:VOD with wtf moment: http://www.twitch.tv/esvision/b/300029464?t=55m00sMr Chae's official statement:Hello this is Mr Chae. ESV TV is a foreign tournament that formed a partnership with the GSL and awarded players with GSL Nov. Code A seeds. However a partnership has not been confirmed for the GSL's first season of Code A in 2012, and we are still negotiating with ESV TV at the moment (this is because we are gathering feedback from all the teams on the GSL format during this Nov. season so any changes in format for 2012 may not accommodate a partnership). However, even if it is a tournament that does not award GSL Code A seeds, the use of profanities in a broadcast with many viewers and a blatant disregard for competition cannot be ignored by the GSL. We are unable to make a decision on the punishment yet based on only screenshots and the community. Therefore, we will be asking Prime and SlayerS about the situation and what further action should be taken. The consequences that the players will need to face will be announced as soon as possible after the situation has been assessed. Thank you. Source: http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23901&p=1Mr Chae's unofficial statement:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/X4OHM.jpg) Control your brains as well. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=7#134On November 15 2011 13:43 Tanatos wrote:Full translation 슬레이어스가 ESV TV 코리안 위클리 시즌4 ‘고의 패배’ 사건에 대해 공식 사과하고 최종환을 집으로 돌려보냈다. Team SlayerS apologize about what happen to Coca's 'match fixing' during the ESV TV Korean Weekly S4 and send Coca back to home. 슬레이어스 김가연 게임단주는 “슬레이어스에 소속된 선수가 온라인 대회에서 고의 패배로 물의를 일으켜 죄송하다”고 말한 뒤 “이번 사건은 대회의 규모나 경기의 중요도에 관계없이 e스포츠 팬들에게 오해를 줄 수 있는 명백한 실수다. 팀 소속 선수에 대한 관리가 부족했던 것을 반성하고, 앞으로는 절대로 이런 일이 재발하지 않도록 노력하겠다”고 말했다. Manager SlayerSJessica said, "I am sorry about what happen to one of SlayerS member during the online tournament." "This is complete mistake from us to e-sports fans to cause misundertanding with no matter of importance nor size of tournament. I regret about reckless management and I will work hard to prevent such an incident ever again." 임요환 역시 “과거 승부조작 파문이 어떤 결과를 초래했는지 모두 알고 있다. 비록 온라인에서 진행된 일이라고 할지라도 선수로서 절대 해선 안될 일을 저지른 것”이라고 말한 뒤 “팀의 맏형으로서 사과 드리고, 이번 사건이 얼마나 나쁜 일인지 선수들에게 인지시키고 더 멋진 경기를 보여드릴 수 있도록 노력하겠다”고 덧붙였다. Boxer also said, "We all know what result match fix scandal has caused. Even in online tournament, this is a non-exceptable matter as progamer." "I apologize as big brother of the team, and I will remind how terrible it is to other players, and we will work hard to show you better games." 슬레이어스는 이번 사건의 책임을 물어 최종환을 2군으로 강등시키고 집으로 귀가 시켰다. 또한, 자숙과 반성의 의미로 앞으로 펼쳐지는 국내외 모든 스타2 대회에 최종환을 출전시키지 않는다고 말했다. 슬레이어스의 이번 징계는 무기한 조치이며, 최종환이 대회에 출전할 수 있는 상황이 됐다고 판단했을 때 복귀할 수 있다. SlayerS asked responsiblity of this incident to Coca and place him to B team and set him home. Also, by the meaning of self-reflect, SlayerS will ban Coca to any Starcraft 2 matches inside of Korea and rest of the world. This decision is for an indefinite period, and Coca will be back to SC2 when he is ready. 사건의 당사자인 최종환은 반성의 의미로 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S를 기권했다. 최종환은 이번 사건의 책임을 통감하고 스스로 코드S 잔여경기 출전을 포기하고 자숙하기로 결정했다. 이에 따라 최종환은 오는 16일 열리는 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S 16강 C조 경기에 출전하지 않는다. Coca has forfeit the GSL Nov. Code S for meaning of self-reflect. Coca himself has felt responsible to this incident and forfeit the rest of matches. So, Coca will not be on GSL Code S RO16 Group C match on 16th. 한편, 곰TV는 커뮤니티 공지를 통해 이번 사건에 대한 공식입장을 발표했다. 채정원 팀장은 ESV TV와 GSL의 연계와 관련된 내용을 설명하고, 공식적인 확인 절차가 끝난 뒤 선수들에 대한 징계나 처벌에 대해 공식 발표하겠다고 밝혔다. GomTV has announced their official comment on community board. Mr. Chae has explained relationship between ESV TV and GSL. After their official comfirmation, discipline action on players will be announced. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=40#790On November 15 2011 16:11 anrimayu wrote:Here's the chat log in question. I omitted parts that are irrelevant. 1:00 C: i'll let you win B: fuck off. 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event 26:20, Coca at 150pop 4 mining bases to Byun's 45pop 0 mining base B: fuck, get out, fuck fuck C: I forfeit B: let's do game 3 too C: gg *leaves the game
If he wanted to practice his ZvT for his upcoming Code S matches he shouldn't have a joined a tournament where he may or may not face Terran opponents. Your explanation is really no excuse at all considering he's on the team with the best Terrans in the world. If he wanted to practice for his upcoming matches all the tools were in place for him to do that. That is the entire point of being on such a prestigious team.
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i just hope these two come back since this isn't ANYTHING like the savior debacle. yes, he threw the match on purpose but there wasn't any bad intentions.
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To think, all this could have been avoided if they had just used the private-chat function instead of all-chat. I wonder what they were thinking; I mean they knew that they had to submit the replay, right? Did they assume no one would watch it? This may be the least well thought-out scheme in esports history.
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On November 16 2011 09:59 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:31 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 08:59 figq wrote:On November 16 2011 08:50 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:On November 16 2011 02:08 Emma Watson wrote:
Extremely disappointed in Boxer. As the wise mentor of team Slayers you would expect him to be strict, but also to be lenient and forgiving. Handing out such harsh punishment to a kid like Coca....I don't know, I imagined Boxer to be a White-Ra/Gandalf-like person who takes the context of Coca's actions into account and judges accordingly.
Boxer's reaction to this whole thing was equivalent to a overly eager dad who catches his son stealing a candybar and proceeds to beat the shit out of him, so the other parents don't think he is a bad father.
I am a social worker myself and let me tell you this: Kids make mistakes, your job as an adult is make sure that they learn from it by giving them second chances. And lets be clear: Coca's actions were well-intentioned, but he chose the wrong way to go about it.
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career? Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans. Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol Yeah I was agreeing with you, hence why I said 'to add to that' :o On November 16 2011 05:51 IPA wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:
[quote]
What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career?
Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans.
Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol I couldn't disagree more. I made countless mistakes at age 18, even into my early 20s. I suppose you guys were ministers by then. It's old enough to take responsibility (which they are doing); it's young enough to make it semi-understandable. Jesus, did you guys ever have fun or get into trouble? There's a huge difference between 'never had fun' and 'does not cheat in professional sports'. Comparing the two is hilariously fallacious. Do you call forfeit cheating? Because pretty much everybody forfeits when they have busy schedules, which is the case here. The manner of doing it was disrespectful to the Korean Weekly -> so they both got ban from the Weekly until January, which is fair. Anything beyond that seems pretty unnecessary, especially the Code S withdrawal. Is this confirmed? The OP set it out as forfeiting for the main aim of giving Byun the win, rather than letting Byun have the win for the main aim of not being able to compete. If Coca was playing the games, clearly his schedule was not an issue, no? Obviously the intent and primary goal of forfeiting determines whether it is cheating - whether you want your opponent to win, or merely allow it to happen. I'll repost the quotes again. Coca was using this tournament environment to practice vs Terran (Byun is Terran), but the next opponent was Protoss anyway, and Coca had to focus on his all-Terran GSL group. He forfeited game 2 which he undeniably won (no pretense, no attempt to act like losing it - he just gg and leave after clearly winning) - in order to play a 3rd game vs Byun. That allows him one more ZvT game experience as preparation. He could have just forfeited the whole match, and they could have just not sent the replays, treating them as custom practice between them, and nobody would have said anything bad about it, as players forfeit all the time due to busy schedule. They disrespected the Korean Weekly by sending the replays, and assuming it won't be such a big deal that Coca openly forfeits and the games are essentially more like a training session. But either way, if Coca didn't play at all, Byun would have advanced anyway, so it didn't matter. As viewers, most of us enjoyed their play, because it was entirely competitive, with the difference that Coca gg'd and left in the end of game 2 after winning it, demanding a 3rd game. As promised, the quotes: + Show Spoiler [Mr Chae's statements] + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=4#76On November 15 2011 13:35 Clefairy wrote:VOD with wtf moment: http://www.twitch.tv/esvision/b/300029464?t=55m00sMr Chae's official statement:Hello this is Mr Chae. ESV TV is a foreign tournament that formed a partnership with the GSL and awarded players with GSL Nov. Code A seeds. However a partnership has not been confirmed for the GSL's first season of Code A in 2012, and we are still negotiating with ESV TV at the moment (this is because we are gathering feedback from all the teams on the GSL format during this Nov. season so any changes in format for 2012 may not accommodate a partnership). However, even if it is a tournament that does not award GSL Code A seeds, the use of profanities in a broadcast with many viewers and a blatant disregard for competition cannot be ignored by the GSL. We are unable to make a decision on the punishment yet based on only screenshots and the community. Therefore, we will be asking Prime and SlayerS about the situation and what further action should be taken. The consequences that the players will need to face will be announced as soon as possible after the situation has been assessed. Thank you. Source: http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23901&p=1Mr Chae's unofficial statement:Control your brains as well. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=7#134On November 15 2011 13:43 Tanatos wrote:Full translation 슬레이어스가 ESV TV 코리안 위클리 시즌4 ‘고의 패배’ 사건에 대해 공식 사과하고 최종환을 집으로 돌려보냈다. Team SlayerS apologize about what happen to Coca's 'match fixing' during the ESV TV Korean Weekly S4 and send Coca back to home. 슬레이어스 김가연 게임단주는 “슬레이어스에 소속된 선수가 온라인 대회에서 고의 패배로 물의를 일으켜 죄송하다”고 말한 뒤 “이번 사건은 대회의 규모나 경기의 중요도에 관계없이 e스포츠 팬들에게 오해를 줄 수 있는 명백한 실수다. 팀 소속 선수에 대한 관리가 부족했던 것을 반성하고, 앞으로는 절대로 이런 일이 재발하지 않도록 노력하겠다”고 말했다. Manager SlayerSJessica said, "I am sorry about what happen to one of SlayerS member during the online tournament." "This is complete mistake from us to e-sports fans to cause misundertanding with no matter of importance nor size of tournament. I regret about reckless management and I will work hard to prevent such an incident ever again." 임요환 역시 “과거 승부조작 파문이 어떤 결과를 초래했는지 모두 알고 있다. 비록 온라인에서 진행된 일이라고 할지라도 선수로서 절대 해선 안될 일을 저지른 것”이라고 말한 뒤 “팀의 맏형으로서 사과 드리고, 이번 사건이 얼마나 나쁜 일인지 선수들에게 인지시키고 더 멋진 경기를 보여드릴 수 있도록 노력하겠다”고 덧붙였다. Boxer also said, "We all know what result match fix scandal has caused. Even in online tournament, this is a non-exceptable matter as progamer." "I apologize as big brother of the team, and I will remind how terrible it is to other players, and we will work hard to show you better games." 슬레이어스는 이번 사건의 책임을 물어 최종환을 2군으로 강등시키고 집으로 귀가 시켰다. 또한, 자숙과 반성의 의미로 앞으로 펼쳐지는 국내외 모든 스타2 대회에 최종환을 출전시키지 않는다고 말했다. 슬레이어스의 이번 징계는 무기한 조치이며, 최종환이 대회에 출전할 수 있는 상황이 됐다고 판단했을 때 복귀할 수 있다. SlayerS asked responsiblity of this incident to Coca and place him to B team and set him home. Also, by the meaning of self-reflect, SlayerS will ban Coca to any Starcraft 2 matches inside of Korea and rest of the world. This decision is for an indefinite period, and Coca will be back to SC2 when he is ready. 사건의 당사자인 최종환은 반성의 의미로 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S를 기권했다. 최종환은 이번 사건의 책임을 통감하고 스스로 코드S 잔여경기 출전을 포기하고 자숙하기로 결정했다. 이에 따라 최종환은 오는 16일 열리는 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S 16강 C조 경기에 출전하지 않는다. Coca has forfeit the GSL Nov. Code S for meaning of self-reflect. Coca himself has felt responsible to this incident and forfeit the rest of matches. So, Coca will not be on GSL Code S RO16 Group C match on 16th. 한편, 곰TV는 커뮤니티 공지를 통해 이번 사건에 대한 공식입장을 발표했다. 채정원 팀장은 ESV TV와 GSL의 연계와 관련된 내용을 설명하고, 공식적인 확인 절차가 끝난 뒤 선수들에 대한 징계나 처벌에 대해 공식 발표하겠다고 밝혔다. GomTV has announced their official comment on community board. Mr. Chae has explained relationship between ESV TV and GSL. After their official comfirmation, discipline action on players will be announced. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=40#790On November 15 2011 16:11 anrimayu wrote:Here's the chat log in question. I omitted parts that are irrelevant. 1:00 C: i'll let you win B: fuck off. 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event 26:20, Coca at 150pop 4 mining bases to Byun's 45pop 0 mining base B: fuck, get out, fuck fuck C: I forfeit B: let's do game 3 too C: gg *leaves the game
After looking at all these quotes I feel bad for coca.... this really is no big deal....He obviously had no bad intention otherwise he wouldn't send in replays of him doing the act. Its not like he suddenly forgot he "match" fixed.
I feel like coca is having to face such a harsh punishment because of the Savior incident but they are completely unrelated and should be treated as such. Sadly most people won't differentiate.
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I feel bad for Coca; his punishment is too harsh and he made a dumb move but nothing worth this punishment. (More like a stern warning, given his intentions.)
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On November 16 2011 10:23 Devolved wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 09:59 figq wrote:On November 16 2011 09:31 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 08:59 figq wrote:On November 16 2011 08:50 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:On November 16 2011 02:30 Condor Hero wrote:
[quote]
What the fuck are you talking about?
Do you have any idea what Boxer and other people gave up for progaming to be a legitimate career?
Esports was sold on the passion of the players and fans.
Nobody gives a shit that Coca is a "kid." He's a progamer on Slayers so he should be counted on to be professional. aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time? the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol Yeah I was agreeing with you, hence why I said 'to add to that' :o On November 16 2011 05:51 IPA wrote:On November 16 2011 05:48 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 04:01 Dfgj wrote:On November 16 2011 02:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 16 2011 02:33 MrTortoise wrote:
[quote]
aww did your parents and teachers give you a hard time?
the point is that kids are not able to undesrtand the consequences of their actions - in fact a lot of adults cant either (which is fueling some interesting legal debates). As such punishment that could seriously damage their improvement and progression does nobody any favors. What if one of these kids coul dof been the next boxer ... but did something stupid and met the anger of all othe other people out there that are pissed off at life and want to see someone crucified to make them feel better? Whats with the smugness in your post? Those kids are 17 and 18. And how do you teach people that there are consequences to their actions? By making them live through the consequences. And how this is hampering their improvement? They didn't get kicked out of their teams, only a few unreasonable humans are the ones wanting to see them crucified(see the posts that say the punishment was not enough) If anything it seems you are the one angry at life here lol. Jessica, boxer and gerard are not their parents, they are the team managers, they have to respond to their sponsors and to their fans, if one of the members of their team act in a way to embarass their organizations they have all the right in the world to punish them. Punishment may be harsh, but crucifying? Not really 18 isn't a 'kid' anymore, to add to that. 18 is old enough to be drafted in Korea. Age is not an excuse here. Did you read my post? because thats what I was saying lol I couldn't disagree more. I made countless mistakes at age 18, even into my early 20s. I suppose you guys were ministers by then. It's old enough to take responsibility (which they are doing); it's young enough to make it semi-understandable. Jesus, did you guys ever have fun or get into trouble? There's a huge difference between 'never had fun' and 'does not cheat in professional sports'. Comparing the two is hilariously fallacious. Do you call forfeit cheating? Because pretty much everybody forfeits when they have busy schedules, which is the case here. The manner of doing it was disrespectful to the Korean Weekly -> so they both got ban from the Weekly until January, which is fair. Anything beyond that seems pretty unnecessary, especially the Code S withdrawal. Is this confirmed? The OP set it out as forfeiting for the main aim of giving Byun the win, rather than letting Byun have the win for the main aim of not being able to compete. If Coca was playing the games, clearly his schedule was not an issue, no? Obviously the intent and primary goal of forfeiting determines whether it is cheating - whether you want your opponent to win, or merely allow it to happen. I'll repost the quotes again. Coca was using this tournament environment to practice vs Terran (Byun is Terran), but the next opponent was Protoss anyway, and Coca had to focus on his all-Terran GSL group. He forfeited game 2 which he undeniably won (no pretense, no attempt to act like losing it - he just gg and leave after clearly winning) - in order to play a 3rd game vs Byun. That allows him one more ZvT game experience as preparation. He could have just forfeited the whole match, and they could have just not sent the replays, treating them as custom practice between them, and nobody would have said anything bad about it, as players forfeit all the time due to busy schedule. They disrespected the Korean Weekly by sending the replays, and assuming it won't be such a big deal that Coca openly forfeits and the games are essentially more like a training session. But either way, if Coca didn't play at all, Byun would have advanced anyway, so it didn't matter. As viewers, most of us enjoyed their play, because it was entirely competitive, with the difference that Coca gg'd and left in the end of game 2 after winning it, demanding a 3rd game. As promised, the quotes: + Show Spoiler [Mr Chae's statements] + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=4#76On November 15 2011 13:35 Clefairy wrote:VOD with wtf moment: http://www.twitch.tv/esvision/b/300029464?t=55m00sMr Chae's official statement:Hello this is Mr Chae. ESV TV is a foreign tournament that formed a partnership with the GSL and awarded players with GSL Nov. Code A seeds. However a partnership has not been confirmed for the GSL's first season of Code A in 2012, and we are still negotiating with ESV TV at the moment (this is because we are gathering feedback from all the teams on the GSL format during this Nov. season so any changes in format for 2012 may not accommodate a partnership). However, even if it is a tournament that does not award GSL Code A seeds, the use of profanities in a broadcast with many viewers and a blatant disregard for competition cannot be ignored by the GSL. We are unable to make a decision on the punishment yet based on only screenshots and the community. Therefore, we will be asking Prime and SlayerS about the situation and what further action should be taken. The consequences that the players will need to face will be announced as soon as possible after the situation has been assessed. Thank you. Source: http://esports.gomtv.com/gsl/community/view.gom?mbid=1&msgid=23901&p=1Mr Chae's unofficial statement:Control your brains as well. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=7#134On November 15 2011 13:43 Tanatos wrote:Full translation 슬레이어스가 ESV TV 코리안 위클리 시즌4 ‘고의 패배’ 사건에 대해 공식 사과하고 최종환을 집으로 돌려보냈다. Team SlayerS apologize about what happen to Coca's 'match fixing' during the ESV TV Korean Weekly S4 and send Coca back to home. 슬레이어스 김가연 게임단주는 “슬레이어스에 소속된 선수가 온라인 대회에서 고의 패배로 물의를 일으켜 죄송하다”고 말한 뒤 “이번 사건은 대회의 규모나 경기의 중요도에 관계없이 e스포츠 팬들에게 오해를 줄 수 있는 명백한 실수다. 팀 소속 선수에 대한 관리가 부족했던 것을 반성하고, 앞으로는 절대로 이런 일이 재발하지 않도록 노력하겠다”고 말했다. Manager SlayerSJessica said, "I am sorry about what happen to one of SlayerS member during the online tournament." "This is complete mistake from us to e-sports fans to cause misundertanding with no matter of importance nor size of tournament. I regret about reckless management and I will work hard to prevent such an incident ever again." 임요환 역시 “과거 승부조작 파문이 어떤 결과를 초래했는지 모두 알고 있다. 비록 온라인에서 진행된 일이라고 할지라도 선수로서 절대 해선 안될 일을 저지른 것”이라고 말한 뒤 “팀의 맏형으로서 사과 드리고, 이번 사건이 얼마나 나쁜 일인지 선수들에게 인지시키고 더 멋진 경기를 보여드릴 수 있도록 노력하겠다”고 덧붙였다. Boxer also said, "We all know what result match fix scandal has caused. Even in online tournament, this is a non-exceptable matter as progamer." "I apologize as big brother of the team, and I will remind how terrible it is to other players, and we will work hard to show you better games." 슬레이어스는 이번 사건의 책임을 물어 최종환을 2군으로 강등시키고 집으로 귀가 시켰다. 또한, 자숙과 반성의 의미로 앞으로 펼쳐지는 국내외 모든 스타2 대회에 최종환을 출전시키지 않는다고 말했다. 슬레이어스의 이번 징계는 무기한 조치이며, 최종환이 대회에 출전할 수 있는 상황이 됐다고 판단했을 때 복귀할 수 있다. SlayerS asked responsiblity of this incident to Coca and place him to B team and set him home. Also, by the meaning of self-reflect, SlayerS will ban Coca to any Starcraft 2 matches inside of Korea and rest of the world. This decision is for an indefinite period, and Coca will be back to SC2 when he is ready. 사건의 당사자인 최종환은 반성의 의미로 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S를 기권했다. 최종환은 이번 사건의 책임을 통감하고 스스로 코드S 잔여경기 출전을 포기하고 자숙하기로 결정했다. 이에 따라 최종환은 오는 16일 열리는 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S 16강 C조 경기에 출전하지 않는다. Coca has forfeit the GSL Nov. Code S for meaning of self-reflect. Coca himself has felt responsible to this incident and forfeit the rest of matches. So, Coca will not be on GSL Code S RO16 Group C match on 16th. 한편, 곰TV는 커뮤니티 공지를 통해 이번 사건에 대한 공식입장을 발표했다. 채정원 팀장은 ESV TV와 GSL의 연계와 관련된 내용을 설명하고, 공식적인 확인 절차가 끝난 뒤 선수들에 대한 징계나 처벌에 대해 공식 발표하겠다고 밝혔다. GomTV has announced their official comment on community board. Mr. Chae has explained relationship between ESV TV and GSL. After their official comfirmation, discipline action on players will be announced. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285580¤tpage=40#790On November 15 2011 16:11 anrimayu wrote:Here's the chat log in question. I omitted parts that are irrelevant. 1:00 C: i'll let you win B: fuck off. 3:48 B: fuck, you said you'll let me win C: I have to practice, there's 3 Ts in my group ... C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit B: Where's your teams T? C: G-star event 26:20, Coca at 150pop 4 mining bases to Byun's 45pop 0 mining base B: fuck, get out, fuck fuck C: I forfeit B: let's do game 3 too C: gg *leaves the game If he wanted to practice his ZvT for his upcoming Code S matches he shouldn't have a joined a tournament where he may or may not face Terran opponents. Your explanation is really no excuse at all considering he's on the team with the best Terrans in the world. If he wanted to practice for his upcoming matches all the tools were in place for him to do that. That is the entire point of being on such a prestigious team. Please check the last quote:
C: I'm here just because I don't have other Ts to practice
B: Next opponent is P, so just forfeit
B: Where's your teams T?
C: G-star event
His teammates Terrans were not available.
He couldn't know beforehand how his GSL path would go, and that he would be busy at this stage of the Weekly. Many players enter the event, and due to schedule conflicts forfeit - the act of forfeiting is perfectly okay, you can't be everywhere.
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On November 16 2011 03:54 Lorch wrote:
Wow SlayerS really is hard in punishment. I understand why they would have him forfeit his code s spot and not allow him to play in any tournaments this year and even removing him from the a team seems somewhat reasonable, but making him train outside the slayers house? Seems a little too harsh to me.
If he can't behave professionally, he shouldn't be treated as one by having a spot in the training house.
Sorry, but CoCa's actions to help his friend is a punch In the gut to everyone who put their blood, sweat and tears into working to get Starcraft eSports to be acknowledged and treated as a legitimate sport by the S.korean public.
Especially Boxer.
I can't believe that people think it is acceptable for a professional to throw a match at any level for any price.
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For people who says that Coca can go to another team, he can't, he just caused a scandal that hasn't happened once in a while, which team will accept him?
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I agree with the punishments for both players so long as they both are able to compete in future events (I'm a huge Byun/Ghostking fan TT). That being said, I feel like calling this "match-fixing" evokes a meaning that has serious connotations with it--that's not to say that what happened is not stupid or bad, but it isn't as stupid or bad as the 2010 Brood War incident. I think that this is a lot less premeditated and a lot less malicious of an act. So yes, their actions were stupid and saying that they should not be punished is ridiculous (actually Mr. Chae saying that swearing in broadcasted games is unacceptable makes me more supportive of any decision he makes because frankly that's the sort of decree that should have been made by IGN back in games such as IPL2: IdrA vs MaNa).
But calling it match-fixing invokes bitter memories, and I don't think that it is fair to categorize these young, talented (and stupid) players as being as low level of individuals as  sAviOr or  Justin. Of course, I suppose that "a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet," and in this case a match-fixer by any other name is still as stupid and unacceptable as ever.
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Unacceptable glad slayers brought down the ban hammer on him
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Hmm. I'm curious, why the hell did Coca not have practice partners available? Shit, the kid was on his first run into Code S, you'd think he'd get preference.
And I mean MMA had two zergs in his group, wouldn't it have been good for them to practice? -.-
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On November 16 2011 11:17 hawthwang wrote:
For people who says that Coca can go to another team, he can't, he just caused a scandal that hasn't happened once in a while, which team will accept him?
Foreigner teams, because they don't mind about this type of behavior that much. But Coca obviously took this punishment like a man. He's willing to pay this price to stay on Slayers.
On November 16 2011 11:24 1Eris1 wrote:
Hmm. I'm curious, why the hell did Coca not have practice partners available? Shit, the kid was on his first run into Code S, you'd think he'd get preference.
And I mean MMA had two zergs in his group, wouldn't it have been good for them to practice? -.-
It is actually his second run, but MMA and co were at another event. He could still have hooked up customs with other ex Zenex people instead.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15
His route ahead showed that he's in for a bunch of Code B terrans, except for Taeja. He can't honestly consider that real practice either. I honestly doubt that it was his intent to use this tournament for vT practice.
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Wooooooow! Brain fart indeed wtf were they thinking?? Especially after that fiasco with savior...hope they get a grip on things and sort their shit out
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On November 16 2011 11:26 Oktyabr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 11:17 hawthwang wrote:
For people who says that Coca can go to another team, he can't, he just caused a scandal that hasn't happened once in a while, which team will accept him? Foreigner teams, because they don't mind about this type of behavior that much. But Coca obviously took this punishment like a man. He's willing to pay this price to stay on Slayers. Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 11:24 1Eris1 wrote:
Hmm. I'm curious, why the hell did Coca not have practice partners available? Shit, the kid was on his first run into Code S, you'd think he'd get preference.
And I mean MMA had two zergs in his group, wouldn't it have been good for them to practice? -.- It is actually his second run, but MMA and co were at another event. He could still have hooked up customs with other ex Zenex people instead. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15His route ahead showed that he's in for a bunch of Code B terrans, except for Taeja. He can't honestly consider that real practice either. I honestly doubt that it was his intent to use this tournament for vT practice. What was his intent then? Do you realize that he could have just forfeited the match without playing and without sending replays, and Byun would have advanced anyway with no trouble for anyone. I don't see the intent then. The intent was clearly to play 3 games vs Byun in a tournament environment, because Byun is Terran and Coca needed that ZvT practice before his all-Terran GSL group, just as he says in chat.
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I wonder if things will be different if Coca just suicide A-move all his units to the back of Byun's base and let Byun kill all his stuff and never rebuild. Then Coca types in GG. Won't that be more subtle?
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Ugh this sucks that he had to do this, I was looking forward to watching him and wanted him to do well this season. 
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Hopefully the "grounding" will only last one season! :/
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the only thing these players deserve to be punished for is being dumb enough to submit the replays to ESV
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On November 16 2011 11:44 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2011 11:26 Oktyabr wrote:On November 16 2011 11:17 hawthwang wrote:
For people who says that Coca can go to another team, he can't, he just caused a scandal that hasn't happened once in a while, which team will accept him? Foreigner teams, because they don't mind about this type of behavior that much. But Coca obviously took this punishment like a man. He's willing to pay this price to stay on Slayers. On November 16 2011 11:24 1Eris1 wrote:
Hmm. I'm curious, why the hell did Coca not have practice partners available? Shit, the kid was on his first run into Code S, you'd think he'd get preference.
And I mean MMA had two zergs in his group, wouldn't it have been good for them to practice? -.- It is actually his second run, but MMA and co were at another event. He could still have hooked up customs with other ex Zenex people instead. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/ESV_TV_Korean_Weekly/Weekly_15His route ahead showed that he's in for a bunch of Code B terrans, except for Taeja. He can't honestly consider that real practice either. I honestly doubt that it was his intent to use this tournament for vT practice. What was his intent then? Do you realize that he could have just forfeited the match without playing and without sending replays, and Byun would have advanced anyway with no trouble for anyone. I don't see the intent then. The intent was clearly to play 3 games vs Byun in a tournament environment, because Byun is Terran and Coca needed that ZvT practice before his all-Terran GSL group, just as he says in chat.
And you know he could just as easily played him in several customs afterwards? He obviously didn't take this tournament seriously. Those replays are definitive of him fucking around with the tournament's integrity. If he had forfeited the match and chose not to send any replays, you realize that every other result in the bracket still hold true?
Whatever the case is, he knows hes in the wrong and that's why he didn't leave Slayers. That's all there is to it.
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EPT
