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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:16 Grettin wrote: There is a reason to make such a big deal of it. They want no one to do something that Savior and others did in Broodwar or even close to it. This is not a reason to do anything. You don't try avoid past mistakes by being unreasonable, that's how you make the past repeat itself. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:04 Kresnik02 wrote: I don't get it, they are teamates, one of then already has the code S spot and the other needed the code A, there is no real problem doing this if there is no rule against matchfixing. If you wan't esports to be considered an sport you need to understand that this can happen and unless there is some explicit rule against you will see everytime friends or teamates meet on important games. Just to show that this kind of stuff happen everywhere: Yea, I guess the issue here really is where and how you draw the line. Obviously, if Coca were careful, he could have made sure nobody ever finds out about letting Byun win the match. Again, just because it happens in other sports does not mean this is okay in e-Sports or that they should not attempt to find the optimal solution. It does ruin the spirit of the competition based on fair wins and losses. You could almost say that Byun is "stealing" the spot of someone else who could have beaten Coca, it's not as simple as a friend helping another one out. | ||
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gwixter
Slovakia336 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:22 trinxified wrote: This is different because the other matches everyone is speaking of has no definite proof that they are match fixing, throwing games, etc. This one with Coca and Byun however is different. It's blatantly expressed and proven with chat. Thats what I said. So without chat it's ok, with chat it's matchfixing? And proof in this case is irrelevant. SlayerS (over)reaction would have come regardless any proof and GSL hasn't reacted yet (afaik). | ||
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Zocat
Germany2229 Posts
On November 15 2011 19:01 Grettin wrote: They have sponsors who give them money, they have a lot in line here and they want to give the best result as possible. Of course they take these things seriously, jesus. And not to mention, if you want this "E-sports" to be something huge in the future, things like this should be happening more often. Yeah and now we look how big teams/clubs punish their players in something "huge" (football^^): Fines. A 1000$ fine, or in Coca's case all of his GSL winnings this seaons. And in order to get back the image/pr damage you received you use that money to organize stuff for the fans. A tournament, a contest for the fans with stuff to win, a fanmeeting. That's how the big / huge professional teams handle shit from their players.... On November 16 2011 00:16 Grettin wrote: There is a reason to make such a big deal of it. They want no one to do something that Savior and others did in Broodwar or even close to it. And what comes to the "forcing him to forfeit" or "kicking him out of Code S", seems like Coca was pretty cooperative here. Not to mention, the language they used SHOULDN'T BE tolerable in a broadcasted match, especially when we are talking about team Slayers here. They do have sponsors you know, thus they should act professionally if they represent the team. + Show Spoiler + 사건의 당사자인 최종환은 반성의 의미로 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S를 기권했다. 최종환은 이번 사건의 책임을 통감하고 스스로 코드S 잔여경기 출전을 포기하고 자숙하기로 결정했다. 이에 따라 최종환은 오는 16일 열리는 소니에릭슨 GSL 시즌7 코드S 16강 C조 경기에 출전하지 않는다. Coca has forfeit the GSL Nov. Code S for meaning of self-reflect. Coca himself has felt responsible to this incident and forfeit the rest of matches. So, Coca will not be on GSL Code S RO16 Group C match on 16th. I dont know about the language used, since I dont speak Korean. But I do remember i.e. Idra telling Huk to "fuck off" (also present in the transcript of Coca-Byun). Or Idra's "fuck you" to Mana in IPL. And I think EG has also sponsors like SlayerS  About Coca beeing cooperative: Yeah, sure. Strange that we dont have a single comment/apology from Coca himself (or I have missed it^^) But then again - it's SlayerS. Making mountains out of molehills again. (The evil bad journalist who said Boxer was just Code B scrub material and the following shitstorm). Edit: Diamond & ESV's reactions are completely fine though! | ||
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Oktyabr
Singapore2234 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:08 fleeze wrote: WTF are you talking about? where is this match fixing? and where is it planned? It seems like Slayers left Coca alone while he had to prepare for his next GSL Code S matches in a group with 3 terrans. Obviously he had no terran training partner in house and maybe he is not allowed to practise with other teams members or byun is not allowed to practise with him (i dunno about this, just speculating). So he wanted a 3rd game to at least get some more practise against high level terrans, this is also why he didn't care to advance and play a protoss. IMHO this totally understandable AND professional (to prepare for GSL). who the fuck cares about a first round of some random tourney with low prizes. it also puts SlayerS in a bad spot if they don't support Coca with a good training partner before his Code S matches. they should have plenty of good terrans to train with him... It's not professional to throw a match if it's a legit tournament with an actual prizepool at stake, no matter how small. Using it as a practice match is a retarded excuse, because he could always seek other terrans out there, or even play Byun with a load of customs afterwards. This is neither totally understandable nor totally professional in Boxer's book. | ||
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
jesus christ. putting an end to coca's career at this stage ? are you serious ? i doubt we will see him back anytime soon -.- another punishment of a different entity would have been appropriate. | ||
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AtreSamus
Sweden142 Posts
I guess the best thing happend as an aftermath though, that it was left to the team(s) to deal with their own players. Im glad they they put their feet down tbh to "nip it in the bud / set examples" etc and Im sure it wasnt an easy decision. I dont see the point in speculating how long this lock out will be nor judge it. You play for a / reperesent a team/club/whatever you agree to stand by their standards, rules etc. But as with most things on the internet, Im sure this will be long forgotten as soon as someone else makes a bad step. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43764 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:30 OneOther wrote: Yea, I guess the issue here really is where and how you draw the line. Obviously, if Coca were careful, he could have made sure nobody ever finds out about letting Byun win the match. Again, just because it happens in other sports does not mean this is okay in e-Sports or that they should not attempt to find the optimal solution. It does ruin the spirit of the competition based on fair wins and losses. You could almost say that Byun is "stealing" the spot of someone else who could have beaten Coca, it's not as simple as a friend helping another one out. I think that's a really important point to consider. We're assuming that all players are playing to the fullest extent of their potential, and that's what makes it incredibly exciting. If an underdog wins, or if someone makes a great run through a tournament, it's truly a great story. We already hate it when we see our favorite players screw up; to see them purposely lose matches is a hundred times worse. Imagine if StarCraft became as real as pro-wrestling. What a tragedy that would be. We wouldn't care about tournaments, because they're all pre-planned as far as we knew. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:04 Kresnik02 wrote: I don't get it, they are teamates, one of then already has the code S spot and the other needed the code A, there is no real problem doing this if there is no rule against matchfixing. If you wan't esports to be considered an sport you need to understand that this can happen and unless there is some explicit rule against you will see everytime friends or teamates meet on important games. Just to show that this kind of stuff happen everywhere: + Show Spoiler + I'm not sure, but isn't Buyn in Prime not Slayers? So if that is so, they aren't team mates -- just friends. There was a rule. This was posted by Diamond, the owner of ESV and it was sent to every team that participated in the tournament. "3: No cheating. This includes but is not limited to, hacks, third-party programs, minimap enlargement tools, automated scripts, “macro keys”. This also includes people messaging you in game, or account sharing/playing under an ID you did not register for. Any cheating of any kind will be dealt with harshly and we will also forward the incident to both GOM TV and the Korean Players Association, along with other notable Non-Korean tournament organizers (Teamliquid, NASL, MLG, etc). We take this VERY seriously. Not every type of cheating is covered here, but if there is a new method of cheating we don’t cover currently, it still counts. Do not test this rule. Note that violation of this rule is an automatic forfeiture of your prize money you earned in the event that the violation occurred in." Well now you might think which of the rule this falls into? Well Diamond also answered to that. not limited to" indeed. I knew match fixing was sensitive in Korean culture, so I did not mention it by name. But either way I could have made a list of 55,000 ways to cheat and still missed some, or just left the rule vague for any situation. Even more so it still can be considered a violation of Rule #2 in the book." | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
"oh there was no money so who cares. just practice blablabla" if he wants practice so badly he could play with him afterwards or ladder or find someone else and dont play in a freaking tournament. Byun was supposed 2 be out of the tournament. but coca let him advance if u think that is not match fixing just because this match had no money on it ... then i really dont know what to say... | ||
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gwixter
Slovakia336 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:34 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I think that's a really important point to consider. We're assuming that all players are playing to the fullest extent of their potential, and that's what makes it incredibly exciting. If an underdog wins, or if someone makes a great run through a tournament, it's truly a great story. We already hate it when we see our favorite players screw up; to see them purposely lose matches is a hundred times worse. Imagine if StarCraft became as real as pro-wrestling. What a tragedy that would be. We wouldn't care about tournaments, because they're all pre-planned as far as we knew. lol .. with this attitude you can say one was matchfixing just because he hadn't trained enough ... we do not live in utopia .... welcome to real world | ||
qetou
39 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Don't worry, plenty of people understand how terrible this actually is (especially those who live in Korea), because they're not brand new to the community, they understand sportsmanship, fair play, and respect, and they're not wasting time creating strawman arguments like "Well he didn't make money off throwing the game and jeopardizing the sanctity of tournament play and cheating the system, so I'm not going to call it match-fixing, which means it's not a big deal." The vocal minority is just piping up, that's all. Not only you are doing that, you also spent some quality time trying to harass those whose opinion differs from yours. Wp lol. | ||
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ETisME
12266 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Don't worry, plenty of people understand how terrible this actually is (especially those who live in Korea), because they're not brand new to the community, they understand sportsmanship, fair play, and respect, and they're not wasting time creating strawman arguments like "Well he didn't make money off throwing the game and jeopardizing the sanctity of tournament play and cheating the system, so I'm not going to call it match-fixing, which means it's not a big deal." The vocal minority is just piping up, that's all. it isn't that terrible, even hong kong gave 7 goals to china in the 2006 world cup, no one ever had a say against it these stuff happens everywhere all the time | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:32 Zocat wrote: Yeah and now we look how big teams/clubs punish their players in something "huge" (football^^): Fines. A 1000$ fine, or in Coca's case all of his GSL winnings this seaons. And in order to get back the image/pr damage you received you use that money to organize stuff for the fans. A tournament, a contest for the fans with stuff to win, a fanmeeting. That's how the big / huge professional teams handle shit from their players.... I dont know about the language used, since I dont speak Korean. But I do remember i.e. Idra telling Huk to "fuck off" (also present in the transcript of Coca-Byun). Or Idra's "fuck you" to Mana in IPL. And I think EG has also sponsors like SlayerS About Coca beeing cooperative: Yeah, sure. Strange that we dont have a single comment/apology from Coca himself (or I have missed it^^) But then again - it's SlayerS. Making mountains out of molehills again. (The evil bad journalist who said Boxer was just Code B scrub material and the following shitstorm). Edit: Diamond & ESV's reactions are completely fine though! And i definitely agree and i think that EG or MLG/IPL should have done something about it, yet they didn't. But the fact is that they(Slayers and other teams with sponsors) should act professionally and talking like that isn't it. Overall, Korean scene seem to be taking this far more seriously than foreign teams/events. Which is IMO a good thing. ( At least Byun apologized, but i don't know if Coca even has a twitter. Yep, at least i haven't seen his apology yet, so i don't know if there is one already. If someone has seen it, feel free to share. edit. About the first part of your post, the translations seem to be in OP or at least page or two back. | ||
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dsll
United Kingdom143 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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Jathin
United States3505 Posts
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Zorgaz
Sweden2951 Posts
Really bummed about Coca though, Code S losing a Z sucks! | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On November 16 2011 00:08 fleeze wrote: WTF are you talking about? where is this match fixing? and where is it planned? It seems like Slayers left Coca alone while he had to prepare for his next GSL Code S matches in a group with 3 terrans. Obviously he had no terran training partner in house and maybe he is not allowed to practise with other teams members or byun is not allowed to practise with him (i dunno about this, just speculating). So he wanted a 3rd game to at least get some more practise against high level terrans, this is also why he didn't care to advance and play a protoss. IMHO this totally understandable AND professional (to prepare for GSL). who the fuck cares about a first round of some random tourney with low prizes. it also puts SlayerS in a bad spot if they don't support Coca with a good training partner before his Code S matches. they should have plenty of good terrans to train with him... Haha random tourmanent with low prizes? You think it's easy to get to a code a spot? People like you can really make the blood boil... | ||
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