On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote: [quote]
so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game.
Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no
Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely
People need to stop comparing apples to oranges.
Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven :
Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports
Any consequence should be enforced by ESV, the party that is involved in this. If they determine that what CoCa did was unfair to the integrity of the tournament they should ban him for any duration they choose. What is a clear overreaction however is to deny CoCa the opportunity to compete in ALL tournaments, such as MLG and GSL.
I won't speak for CoCa but if I did this and the entire team sat down and explained to me what I did was wrong I would realize my mistake. SlayerS and GOM doesn't need to make life-changing decisions to get a point across any more clear than a sit-down and penalty from ESV would have done.
And really? comparing a juvenile mistake to planned murder is quite extreme.
Gom didn´t enforce anything. It was the teams. The teams themeselves decided the punishment.
Last time I checked GSL isn't a team league and has nothing to do with this particular ESV.
If I was causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket I wouldn't get a ban from all the restaurants in the city. Why should CoCa be removed from a party with no affiliation to this incident? Because it reflects negatively on GSL? No, that is silly.
Ummm, Gom didn´t enforce anything?
This is like you causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket and your parents finding out and grounding you for a month.
I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't a mutual decision between SlayerS and GOM, not am I convinced CoCa, on his own accord, forfeited his Code-S spot.
Or think for a minute, and maybe it was slayersboxer, the owner of slayers, and the iconic figure from bw that probably should keep his players intact with appropriate punishments regardless of age? Or maybe the punishment is an overreaction and we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya.
If true, why is Boxer allowed to choose which of his players can play in Code-S and who can't? Regardless of any behavior, GSL isn't a team league and there is no requirement to be on a team in order to participate in GSL. Last I checked it was CoCa who earned that spot and any decision to leave should be made only by him or the league.
I don't think he was kicked out of SlayerS. He was just not allowed to practice in the team house.
On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote: [quote]
so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game.
Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no
Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely
People need to stop comparing apples to oranges.
Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven :
Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports
Any consequence should be enforced by ESV, the party that is involved in this. If they determine that what CoCa did was unfair to the integrity of the tournament they should ban him for any duration they choose. What is a clear overreaction however is to deny CoCa the opportunity to compete in ALL tournaments, such as MLG and GSL.
I won't speak for CoCa but if I did this and the entire team sat down and explained to me what I did was wrong I would realize my mistake. SlayerS and GOM doesn't need to make life-changing decisions to get a point across any more clear than a sit-down and penalty from ESV would have done.
And really? comparing a juvenile mistake to planned murder is quite extreme.
Gom didn´t enforce anything. It was the teams. The teams themeselves decided the punishment.
Last time I checked GSL isn't a team league and has nothing to do with this particular ESV.
If I was causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket I wouldn't get a ban from all the restaurants in the city. Why should CoCa be removed from a party with no affiliation to this incident? Because it reflects negatively on GSL? No, that is silly.
Ummm, Gom didn´t enforce anything?
This is like you causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket and your parents finding out and grounding you for a month.
I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't a mutual decision between SlayerS and GOM, not am I convinced CoCa, on his own accord, forfeited his Code-S spot.
Or think for a minute, and maybe it was slayersboxer, the owner of slayers, and the iconic figure from bw that probably should keep his players intact with appropriate punishments regardless of age? Or maybe the punishment is an overreaction and we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya.
If true, why is Boxer allowed to choose which of his players can play in Code-S and who can't? Regardless of any behavior, GSL isn't a team league and there is no requirement to be on a team in order to participate in GSL. Last I checked it was CoCa who earned that spot and any decision to leave should be made only by him or the league.
Yes, the decision to withdraw from Code S should be decision between GSL and CoCa. However the amount of pressure from his team would forced his hand. Think about what would happen to CoCa's career if he didn't cooperate with Boxer and Jessica. He'd pretty much be blacklisted.
On November 15 2011 15:02 MiXyass wrote: You people need to realize that this match DID mean something
This was not a showmatch with 0 money on the line
This was a match that could potentially lead to Byun winning a code A spot (Provided that one was given to the winner of the tournament and that he won)
It doesn't matter if the match itself didn't grant a code A spot, this is definitely not something to just overlook
See what I mean? Every other page, there's someone assuming wrongly that this was for a Code A spot...
But it doesn't matter if it was for a Code A spot or not. The reason Boxer is upset is because he was in a game representing SlayerS and didn't try to win, regardless of whether it was to help out a former teammate. When you are hired for a team, you are expected to try for that team.
I'm sort of changing my position on this, since he needs to represent his new team. So...
1. Boxer had a right to at least punish a team member for giving up a game under the name SlayerS in a tournament.
2. Byun definitely did no wrong, for the incident did not seem pre-determined, nor was it to Coca's advantage.
3. GOM had nothing to do with this. Don't blame GOM. It's SlayerS job to punish their players in the ESV, not GOM.
4. The viewers seemed to like it. If ESV cares more about good games than entertainment, then they may punish Coca in future weeklies. But, it seems the crowd liked it. It seemed spur of the moment between buddies, so I don't think GOM or ESV feel a need to worry about Coca and Byun dropping games in their tournaments in the future.
5. Don't compare this to the Savior incident. It's nowhere near the scope.
6. Please read about the stakes and what actually happened before posting.
On November 15 2011 14:39 Sabu113 wrote: Can't have this be so blatant.
Ban them for life.
No tolerance. No Forgiveness. Sure we knew this was happenign but to be so blatant about this is unforgivable.
You can`t be serious. That is way too harsh. This is their career and life, you want to end that because of one thrown game in some ESV tournament? They aren`t even adults.
I've seen posts that this was a joke match. ESV doesn't matter. We shouldn't take it seriously.
I mean it's pretty apparent now that ESV is a joke.
This is about setting the right incentives. We're so paranoid about match fixing that to even sniff that behavior is to risk annihilation.
Though I suppose being kicked off slayers for a good while is adequate.
Ok I have read everything over and it is without a doubt what CoCa and Byun did was 100% wrong. They took away the very spirit the Korean Weekly was built on. While it was created to have a quick, fun tournament for Koreans and inject more money into the scene, it is just that, a tournament, a competition. What CoCa and Byun did was incredibly stupid, and ruins the very foundation the tournament itself is based on (the best player wins).
However I am a man that has made more mistakes in my life then I care to admit. CoCa and Byun are both very young and I in no way feel this was a highly premeditated incident like the Savior incident. They deserve a second chance, but not one without punishment.
Until January 1st, 2012 CoCa and Byun are both suspended from the Korean Weekly. We hope they will use this time to look upon themselves and to make sure this never happens again. Additionally the suspension cannot be lifted without the direct approval of their respective coaches (both the time and approval requirements must be met). I feel this will give them the time they need to work past whatever made them do this. They will also be ineligible for any qualified spots in the next Korean Weekly Finals.
In the meantime I will be looking at alternate formats for the Korean Weekly that will somehow separate Code A and S players from Code B. I do not know what the system is yet, but I will be working on it during our two week break.
On November 15 2011 14:49 slytown wrote: How is this match fixing? A: He didn't gain anything. It's not match fixing.
"dishonest activity to make sure that one team wins a particular sports match" ~http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/match-fixing
Maybe because match-fixing isn't necessarily relient on you gaining something tangible? Surely he was doing something nice for his friend, right? That's gaining something for himself. What if I fixed a match as a third party so that an enemy of mine automatically lost, but all I gained was the satisfaction of that man's misery? (Such a thing doesn't even have to be premeditated necessarily, either.) Still match-fixing, but I didn't profit economically from it.
He didn't do it to the extent that Savior did, but throwing the game was match-fixing, by definition. And everyone else who worked hard in that tournament gets screwed over by playing fairly and not getting free wins. It doesn't matter if it was a spur of the moment decision or not; he still cheated. And it doesn't matter if he makes money off the decision or not; he still broke the tournament rules by making sure that one player progressed when he shouldn't have. That's match-fixing (specifically by throwing his own game).
Ironically in this case it's more like honest activity, given that they blared it out on the chat.
More seriously, how is this different from simply not showing up? What is the additional cost to the tournament or the fans of showing up and then losing? What if you 6-pool, and then feel so bad about it you decide to 15-hatch next game even if you knew you could win by rushing again? What if you realize that the other player is that much better than you and a-click your workers? The only difference is that they were dumb enough to say it out loud.
Seriously?
If you show up and lose, then you're at least being respectful to the tournament and the other players. Better luck next time!
If you don't show up, then you're not respecting the tournament and all the hard work everyone's done. Pretty dumb move.
If you show up and cheat (what Coca did), then you're not respecting the tournament, the hard work everyone's done, you're screwing over every other player that's participating in the tournament, you're disrespecting the way the game and tournaments work in general, and you end up causing the fans to start questioning every single game that's ever been played and going to be played. Pretty much the worst thing you can do. Savior epitomized that, and we don't need anything (even the tiniest match-fixing controversy) to remind us.
This is not match fixing. Match fixing is when the outcome of the match is determined BEFORE the match starts. This is not technically what happened. Both players went into the game wanting victory. It was only when Byan asked for Coca to forfeit was then the match decided in Byun's favor. Byun (and Coca as an accomplice) is guilty of winning a match through nontraditional and unsportsmanlike means.
What baffles me is how ESV allowed this to air before sorting it out properly (casted from replays) and where was the referee in all this? Allowing this to happen shows how unprofessional the organization is. Edit: Just read Diamond's post, this is the exact response that should be given.
People are wound up too tight about this in the wrong way. This is not the BW match fixing situation. It's an isolated incident, and the first where such a punishment has been enforced, where a kid mad a terrible mistake in which the repercussions were obviously not outlined to him. Obviously punishment is in order, but nothing more than a message which says that things like this are not acceptable. The fact that Coca's GSL career has been damaged is far too harsh.
The irony of the situation is that people are so divided on this issue its doing far more damage than the actual incident itself. I personally, will not give a cent to any eSports organization until Coca receives his Codes S spot back.
Coca and Byun need to be suspended from the scene for least a couple of month if not a year. Match fixing is hurting the very foundation of esports. Look at the Savior case and how that effected SCBW in Korea.
On November 15 2011 14:47 _Depression wrote: I just want to make a distinction here for anyone saying that the GSL or Gom should enforce some kind of punishment - they can't. This tournament had nothing to do with Gom or the GSL, as far as I know the ESV Weekly is a different entity entirely. So any and all punishments have to be made by the teams that the players are on.
Of course they can. It's their league after all. They can ban any player for any reason. It's up to the fans to judge if the criteria was acceptable and support/criticise GSL.
The match-fixers from BW are all banned from GSL, just an example.
On a unrelated note, I feel terrible and powerless about Coca, Byun and this incident in general because I'm a Korean myself and I know better than anyone how irrational Koreans can be on these kind of situations. Our mob mentality is nothing to be scoffed at. The majority of people just want to see the thing crash and burn, without even wanting to know what really happened. They see "SC2" "match fixing" and jump in like vultures to a carcass. The worst part? The people in charge cannot make reasonable decisions because they know that, if they fail to satisfy the bloodlust of the crowd, they will be the next target of the mob. (This is already happening to Prime, as the punishment given to Byun is not considered enough by most Koreans, so a lot of hate is being thrown to the team)
Here's to hoping that my concerns are in vain and everything ends up being alright, even for Coca and Byun. They learned their lesson, they will pay for it. Let it be the end.
Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely
People need to stop comparing apples to oranges.
Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven :
Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports
Any consequence should be enforced by ESV, the party that is involved in this. If they determine that what CoCa did was unfair to the integrity of the tournament they should ban him for any duration they choose. What is a clear overreaction however is to deny CoCa the opportunity to compete in ALL tournaments, such as MLG and GSL.
I won't speak for CoCa but if I did this and the entire team sat down and explained to me what I did was wrong I would realize my mistake. SlayerS and GOM doesn't need to make life-changing decisions to get a point across any more clear than a sit-down and penalty from ESV would have done.
And really? comparing a juvenile mistake to planned murder is quite extreme.
Gom didn´t enforce anything. It was the teams. The teams themeselves decided the punishment.
Last time I checked GSL isn't a team league and has nothing to do with this particular ESV.
If I was causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket I wouldn't get a ban from all the restaurants in the city. Why should CoCa be removed from a party with no affiliation to this incident? Because it reflects negatively on GSL? No, that is silly.
Ummm, Gom didn´t enforce anything?
This is like you causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket and your parents finding out and grounding you for a month.
I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't a mutual decision between SlayerS and GOM, not am I convinced CoCa, on his own accord, forfeited his Code-S spot.
Or think for a minute, and maybe it was slayersboxer, the owner of slayers, and the iconic figure from bw that probably should keep his players intact with appropriate punishments regardless of age? Or maybe the punishment is an overreaction and we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya.
If true, why is Boxer allowed to choose which of his players can play in Code-S and who can't? Regardless of any behavior, GSL isn't a team league and there is no requirement to be on a team in order to participate in GSL. Last I checked it was CoCa who earned that spot and any decision to leave should be made only by him or the league.
Sure, CoCa could have defied the Emperor and his team, destroyed his reputation in the korean scene and became teamless and continued to play in the GSL. He choose to save what honor he had left and take the high road with his punishment. You don't understand korean culture so you have no reason to comment on it.
^this. Setzer, read what you wrote and think for a minute before you click on post. No really... you don't even need to be in korean culture to understand this, its just common sense. Do you not know who slayersboxer is? Would this behavior been allowed in broodwar even for b teamers? no, and where did slayersboxer come from? I think the word started with brood and ended with war.
On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote: It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy.
so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game.
Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no
Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely
People need to stop comparing apples to oranges.
Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven :
Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports
Ruining pro-gamers careers with ridiculous over-reactions is killing esports. Not some 17 year old kid throwing a game.
I am aware that these are just kids and I do feel pitty but I still think this is unacceptable.
A 'pro-gamer' should not insult fans who watch the game anticipating good game. Sure many players fail to entertain but there is difference doing it unintentionally and doing it on purpose, not to mention showing it to viewers witout shame or guilt.
So you are insinuating that CoCa had malicious intent? That he doesn't regret his decision at all?
Dante Stallworth committed second-degree manslaughter but he is still in the NFL. CoCa apparently deserves the same punishment (temporary removal from league) for throwing a single game in a small tournament that has nothing to do with GOM.
I never said that Coca doesn't regret nor was I speaking on GOM's term. Boxer decided he should be banned from playing in tourneys temporarily and I agree to his decision as a fan. And do not compare this to corrupt American sports scene. I gave up hope after OJ Simpson.
Lol John careful there with the generalization here, you mind end up offending somewhere as you seem to be implying every American sports scene is corrupt, could be an unintended effect of the word choice.
On November 15 2011 15:13 qwazar wrote: What baffles me is how ESV allowed this to air before sorting it out properly (casted from replays) and where was the referee in all this? Allowing this to happen shows how unprofessional the organization is.
No weekly tournament in the planet has refs in every match.
Doesn't sound like match fixing. Sure, it's bad because it was broadcasted, but the fact that they're not completely banned just means people realize they just did it on a whim. It was for fun and Coca didn't mind playing a 3rd game vs Byun.
It's like losing a best of 3, and asking for a "best of 5?" and the other party saying "sure, why not?"
I really don't think the punishment fits the crime for this, this is just two friends messing around, it definitely does not deserve to be called match fixing. Match fixing is premeditated, malicious, and also implies that the player stands to gain something by doing it, neither of which apply to this situation.
It was certainly not very smart of them to do this, but I think the magnitude of what they did is getting insanely blown out of proportion by haphazard use of the phrase 'match fixing.' I think that getting banned from the SlayerS house for a week or something would have been adequate if a warning wasn't enough.
On November 15 2011 15:13 qwazar wrote: R1CH is correct.
This is not match fixing. Match fixing is when the outcome of the match is determined BEFORE the match starts. This is not technically what happened. Both players went into the game wanting victory. It was only when Byan asked for Coca to forfeit was then the match decided in Byun's favor. Byun (and Coca as an accomplice) is guilty of winning a match through nontraditional and unsportsmanlike means.
What baffles me is how ESV allowed this to air before sorting it out properly (casted from replays) and where was the referee in all this? Allowing this to happen shows how unprofessional the organization is.
People are wound up too tight about this in the wrong way. This is not the BW match fixing situation. It's an isolated incident, and the first where such a punishment has been enforced, where a kid mad a terrible mistake in which the repercussions were obviously not outlined to him. Obviously punishment is in order, but nothing more than a message which says that things like this are not acceptable. The fact that Coca's GSL career has been damaged is far too harsh.
The irony of the situation is that people are so divided on this issue its doing far more damage than the actual incident itself. I personally, will not give a cent to any eSports organization until Coca receives his Codes S spot back.
Nope, you're wrong. At the start of game 2, Coca told Byun that he can have the game. If you don't know, don't assume things.
EPT
