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Korea (South)855 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:51 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:44 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:37 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Ruining pro-gamers careers with ridiculous over-reactions is killing esports. Not some 17 year old kid throwing a game. I am aware that these are just kids and I do feel pitty but I still think this is unacceptable. A 'pro-gamer' should not insult fans who watch the game anticipating good game. Sure many players fail to entertain but there is difference doing it unintentionally and doing it on purpose, not to mention showing it to viewers witout shame or guilt. So you are insinuating that CoCa had malicious intent? That he doesn't regret his decision at all? Dante Stallworth committed second-degree manslaughter but he is still in the NFL. CoCa apparently deserves the same punishment (temporary removal from league) for throwing a single game in a small tournament that has nothing to do with GOM.
I never said that Coca doesn't regret nor was I speaking on GOM's term.
Boxer decided he should be banned from playing in tourneys temporarily and I agree to his decision as a fan.
And do not compare this to corrupt American sports scene. I gave up hope after OJ Simpson.
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On November 15 2011 14:53 ThePlayer33 wrote:
This can be said about the same thing as Oz vs YugiOh at the up and down. many people said Oz threw the game so YugiOh gets the code S spot rather then keen. but where do we draw the line????
Yes, but could they prove that? If they could this controversy would seem like peanuts.
It is like a body at the morgue, can the morticians prove that the person was killed? If not then there is no case and no investigation.
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On November 15 2011 14:53 Fubi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:43 mtn wrote:On November 15 2011 14:42 SenorChang wrote:On November 15 2011 14:40 mizU wrote:On November 15 2011 14:39 SenorChang wrote:On November 15 2011 14:36 mizU wrote:On November 15 2011 14:35 SenorChang wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:
[quote]
so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game.
Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports That's isn't a good analogy Murder is murder, this is two completely different circumstances Throwing a game, is throwing a game. Throwing a game and match fixing are not the same thing. Match fixing is when you stand to gain something in return for throwing it. Coca didn't stand to gain anything Does it matter? He still threw a game. And publicly. Yes, of course it matters when their careers are on the line, how can you be so dismissive about it? They made a small mistake - something that they would most likely never repeat after seeing the backlash of this incident. I agree some punishment is needed but this is so excessive. Small mistake? It was for Code S spot FFS. He should have been punished, and I'm glad that he was. It was for NO SPOTS. God can OP clarify that in the first post instead of having so much misinformation spreading around?
But it was clarified in the first post. It's the thread title that's misleading.
"Coca lets a series go to the third game and loses; SlayerS punishes him for not trying to win 2nd game against his friend."
The "man" here is SlayerS, unfortunately, trying to bring down Coca. But oh well. He had to have expected some kind of punishment after the series.
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So he gave left on purpose to help his friends chances of getting in Code S? Is slayers forcing him to drop out of code s?
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On November 15 2011 14:52 windsupernova wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:47 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 15 2011 14:38 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Any consequence should be enforced by ESV, the party that is involved in this. If they determine that what CoCa did was unfair to the integrity of the tournament they should ban him for any duration they choose. What is a clear overreaction however is to deny CoCa the opportunity to compete in ALL tournaments, such as MLG and GSL. I won't speak for CoCa but if I did this and the entire team sat down and explained to me what I did was wrong I would realize my mistake. SlayerS and GOM doesn't need to make life-changing decisions to get a point across any more clear than a sit-down and penalty from ESV would have done. And really? comparing a juvenile mistake to planned murder is quite extreme. Gom didn´t enforce anything. It was the teams. The teams themeselves decided the punishment. Last time I checked GSL isn't a team league and has nothing to do with this particular ESV. If I was causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket I wouldn't get a ban from all the restaurants in the city. Why should CoCa be removed from a party with no affiliation to this incident? Because it reflects negatively on GSL? No, that is silly. Ummm, Gom didn´t enforce anything? This is like you causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket and your parents finding out and grounding you for a month.
I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't a mutual decision between SlayerS and GOM, not am I convinced CoCa, on his own accord, forfeited his Code-S spot.
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I think we should all just respect the decisions made by the respective parties involved in the Korean SC2 scene.
Bringing up examples of foreign incidents and comparing Savior incident to this is kind of meaningless. The context itself is completely different to begin with. This is the first incident (from what I know) since the birth of the SC2 scene in Korea. It will set a precedent that may seem harsh towards the players, but it comes with good intentions to preserve the integrity of E-Sports in Korea.
It looks like a temporary ban for both players. I think we're just blowing things out of proportion here. Both players will be back some time next year I'm guessing.
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On November 15 2011 14:55 _Depression wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:54 Corrosive wrote:On November 15 2011 14:53 snafoo wrote:On November 15 2011 14:51 Corrosive wrote:
Would you ban a team from the NHL/NBA/NFL if they messed around during an exhibition game? No, 100% for sure not.
Obviously this game was part of a tournament, and wasn't an exhibition game, but it's similar as it has no effect on any important, serious games. Read the OP before you post. GOM didn't ban him, SlayerS did. Can you show me where i said gom banned him? thanks. The way you worded your analogy was bad. It's not the league that would do the bannings, it's the team's management.
What i'm saying is no team management in any sport would ban their team / players for messing around in a game that meant nothing.
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On November 15 2011 14:49 slytown wrote:
How is this match fixing? A: He didn't gain anything. It's not match fixing.
"dishonest activity to make sure that one team wins a particular sports match"
~http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/match-fixing
Maybe because match-fixing isn't necessarily relient on you gaining something tangible? Surely he was doing something nice for his friend, right? That's gaining something for himself. What if I fixed a match as a third party so that an enemy of mine automatically lost, but all I gained was the satisfaction of that man's misery? (Such a thing doesn't even have to be premeditated necessarily, either.) Still match-fixing, but I didn't profit economically from it.
He didn't do it to the extent that Savior did, but throwing the game was match-fixing, by definition. And everyone else who worked hard in that tournament gets screwed over by playing fairly and not getting free wins. It doesn't matter if it was a spur of the moment decision or not; he still cheated. And it doesn't matter if he makes money off the decision or not; he still broke the tournament rules by making sure that one player progressed when he shouldn't have. That's match-fixing (specifically by throwing his own game).
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Goddammit... This is absurd. Byun and Coca are two of my favorites - how can they be so careless? If you're going to give up wins, at least ask for them/set them up in a private chat.
I'm not surprised that this happens and I'm not angry either. There's literally no way to stop this kind of stuff from happening.
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On November 15 2011 14:56 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:54 Kiyo. wrote:
I hate how so many of you are going to give Slayers a free pass on this because it's Slayers. If EG had done this to DeMuslim when he threw games to Idra, people would be bitching at EG nonstop. Huge overreaction by Slayers and their reputation of being assholes to their own players only grows. Funny story ... Demuslim did throw games for IdrA. There wasn't much drama, if I can recall correctly, and everyone got away scott-free.
There is a reason why Koreans perform much better than foreigners. They simply take e-sports much more seriously than the latter.
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Damn, coca huge mistake just when he was surging to the top and kicking ass the time off is really gonna cut into his momentum
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Korea (South)855 Posts
On November 15 2011 14:54 kccc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:44 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:37 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Ruining pro-gamers careers with ridiculous over-reactions is killing esports. Not some 17 year old kid throwing a game. I am aware that these are just kids and I do feel pitty but I still think this is unacceptable. A 'pro-gamer' should not insult fans who watch the game anticipating good game. Sure many players fail to entertain but there is difference doing it unintentionally and doing it on purpose, not to mention showing it to viewers witout shame or guilt. They werent intentionally doing it on purpose to insult any fans. They were having a friendly match on a tournament that meant relatively nothing to there careers, so why not have some fun?
I'm not saying that their intention was to insult fans I'm saying Coca intentionally(although I am assuming unwillinngly) threw the game he had won to please Byun
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On November 15 2011 14:54 Kiyo. wrote:
I hate how so many of you are going to give Slayers a free pass on this because it's Slayers. If EG had done this to DeMuslim when he threw games to Idra, people would be bitching at EG nonstop. Huge overreaction by Slayers and their reputation of being assholes to their own players only grows.
Of course they are reacting harshly. Imagine them trying to get one of their lesser known but talented players into a tournament and getting turned down because the Slayers name isn't enough of a guarantee.
They have more reasons to be angry than GSL or even most of the fans.
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On November 15 2011 14:55 jsemmens wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:49 slytown wrote:
How is this match fixing? A: He didn't gain anything. It's not match fixing.
How is this failing to represent a team in a tournament? A: It's not. They went on to ANOTHER GAME.
Please reinstate your players please. Your disregard for understanding the importance of this is not surprising seeing as you have a combatex quote in your sig. The point is: 1. Coca left a game that he was clearly going to win, this winning him the series. He forfeited it and lost the subsequent game, this changing the result of the match to a victory for Byun. So, it did gain Byun something. 2. As mentioned somewhere in the OP, this behavior isn't necessarily warranting of permanent ban from esports or anything, but it does demonstrate that these players do not have the proper attitude towards playing the game if they cannot take the results of these tournaments seriously. 3. The Slayers and Prime teams punishing these players by not allowing them to compete in tournaments is probably helping out Byun and Coca more than anything. The teams are actually stepping up and claiming responsibility for their players actions and punishing them within the team in order to show the GSL that the community at large doesn't need to give out additional punishment to these players. Hopefully if the teams can resolve this "in-house" so to speak, they can teach these players to respect the game and, somewhere down the line, Coca and Byun can eventually begin to compete in tournaments again. To sum it up, we should be grateful that the teams are mature enough to take this matter into their own hands and to show the community that they are always taking these games seriously (a show of professionalism).
Good post, very well thought.
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So what's going to happen to Byun? Anybody know yet?
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I don't know why people keep insisting there's no code A spot.
It's only being said in this thread that it's not been *confirmed* if a spot would be handed out, and/but the last time I spoke to Diamond/ESV, I was told there would most likely be one.
If the players had the same information I had (assuming they did), then you can't say there's nothing on the line.
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On November 15 2011 14:54 kccc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:44 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:37 R1CH wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Ruining pro-gamers careers with ridiculous over-reactions is killing esports. Not some 17 year old kid throwing a game. I am aware that these are just kids and I do feel pitty but I still think this is unacceptable. A 'pro-gamer' should not insult fans who watch the game anticipating good game. Sure many players fail to entertain but there is difference doing it unintentionally and doing it on purpose, not to mention showing it to viewers witout shame or guilt. They werent intentionally doing it on purpose to insult any fans. They were having a friendly match on a tournament that meant relatively nothing to there careers, so why not have some fun?
It doesn´t matter if it was intentional or not. They gave the impression that they were doing a fake competition on a real tournament, Korean scene didn´t like it because they want e sports competitions to be seen as legit competitive competitions. So they punished the players.
Do you have to agree with their decision? No, but the Korean team managers felt that this was an unacceptable behaviour from a pro player. so they punished them. Fair? maybe, but thats what they decided.
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On November 15 2011 14:57 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:55 _Depression wrote:On November 15 2011 14:54 Corrosive wrote:On November 15 2011 14:53 snafoo wrote:On November 15 2011 14:51 Corrosive wrote:
Would you ban a team from the NHL/NBA/NFL if they messed around during an exhibition game? No, 100% for sure not.
Obviously this game was part of a tournament, and wasn't an exhibition game, but it's similar as it has no effect on any important, serious games. Read the OP before you post. GOM didn't ban him, SlayerS did. Can you show me where i said gom banned him? thanks. The way you worded your analogy was bad. It's not the league that would do the bannings, it's the team's management. What i'm saying is no team management in any sport would ban their team / players for messing around in a game that meant nothing.
Oh yes, yes they would. Any team that wanted to keep their integrity would, at least. If the Mets were playing the Yankees in spring training and the Yankees pitcher decided to just lob the ball over the plate all night, he'd be out after an inning and he'd probably get some pretty heavy fines from his management.
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On November 15 2011 14:57 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:52 windsupernova wrote:On November 15 2011 14:47 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:42 windsupernova wrote:On November 15 2011 14:38 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:32 JunkkaGom wrote:On November 15 2011 14:28 setzer wrote:On November 15 2011 14:25 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 15 2011 14:21 Redmark wrote:
It's not match-fixing, Christ.
It's dumb, but it's not match-fixing. Not everyone in jail committed murder. Some of them are there for a couple of nights for getting drunk and punching a guy. so what would you call this? throwing a game? you make no sense, This is match fixing. It was intentional of coca to loose the game. Did CoCa benefit in anyway leaving the game? no Did the BW match-fixers benefit from what they did? Absolutely People need to stop comparing apples to oranges. Let me say this to people who say that since this isn't as big deal as Savior incident because Coca dind't gain anything and hasn't caused as huge scandal as then, he should be forgiven : Killing some owner of rich company to steal money is just as bad as killing homeless guy for fun. Small or big, match fixing is killing esports Any consequence should be enforced by ESV, the party that is involved in this. If they determine that what CoCa did was unfair to the integrity of the tournament they should ban him for any duration they choose. What is a clear overreaction however is to deny CoCa the opportunity to compete in ALL tournaments, such as MLG and GSL. I won't speak for CoCa but if I did this and the entire team sat down and explained to me what I did was wrong I would realize my mistake. SlayerS and GOM doesn't need to make life-changing decisions to get a point across any more clear than a sit-down and penalty from ESV would have done. And really? comparing a juvenile mistake to planned murder is quite extreme. Gom didn´t enforce anything. It was the teams. The teams themeselves decided the punishment. Last time I checked GSL isn't a team league and has nothing to do with this particular ESV. If I was causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket I wouldn't get a ban from all the restaurants in the city. Why should CoCa be removed from a party with no affiliation to this incident? Because it reflects negatively on GSL? No, that is silly. Ummm, Gom didn´t enforce anything? This is like you causing disruptive behavior in the local supermarket and your parents finding out and grounding you for a month. I'm not entirely convinced this wasn't a mutual decision between SlayerS and GOM, not am I convinced CoCa, on his own accord, forfeited his Code-S spot.
Or think for a minute, and maybe it was slayersboxer, the owner of slayers, and the iconic figure from bw that probably should keep his players intact with appropriate punishments regardless of age? Or maybe the punishment is an overreaction and we should all hold hands and sing kumbaya.
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On November 15 2011 14:57 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 14:55 _Depression wrote:On November 15 2011 14:54 Corrosive wrote:On November 15 2011 14:53 snafoo wrote:On November 15 2011 14:51 Corrosive wrote:
Would you ban a team from the NHL/NBA/NFL if they messed around during an exhibition game? No, 100% for sure not.
Obviously this game was part of a tournament, and wasn't an exhibition game, but it's similar as it has no effect on any important, serious games. Read the OP before you post. GOM didn't ban him, SlayerS did. Can you show me where i said gom banned him? thanks. The way you worded your analogy was bad. It's not the league that would do the bannings, it's the team's management. What i'm saying is no team management in any sport would ban their team / players for messing around in a game that meant nothing.
So you're call ESV weekly tournament as meaningless? That would also mean pro gamers who are spending their time and effort in this tournament are just retarded, and sponsors who are paying for it are retarded too. This isn't some friendly matches. This is a tournament.
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EPT
