[D] Defining Early, Mid and Meta (end) game - Page 2

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Callynn

Netherlands917 Posts

November 10 2011 17:26 GMT

#21

On November 11 2011 02:24 canikizu wrote:
Meta game is the current trend, the flavor of the month, game shift,.....

I like that as well as a clear example on the word, I will add it to the definition above.

YaShock

Hungary119 Posts

November 10 2011 17:35 GMT

#22

Is it just me, or people don't use "End" game, rather "Late" game? I personally have never heard "End" game.

Stiver

Canada285 Posts

November 10 2011 17:41 GMT

#23

On November 11 2011 01:58 vaderseven wrote:
Example 3: Joe is in the Code S GSL finals and Nestea is his enemy. Nestea JUST 6 pooled in game 1 and won. Joe is certain (or is at least willing to bet) that Nestea won't 6 pool 2 games in a row. Joe opens with a 1 rax and starts the CC before his wall is even done. This allows him to get a bit more econ at the cost of being vulnerable to a 6 pool which he does not think will come. Nestea predicts that Joe will predict that Nestea won't 6 pool and, of course, 6 pools. Nestea has used metagame to beat the metagame move that Joe just made.

Whayt if Joe knows that Nestea knows Joe won't expect a 6 pool, so he defends it. Except Nestea has figured out that Joe knows that Nestea knows Joe won't expect a 6 pool, so he knows a second 6 pool is coming, in which case Joe is better off playing greedy, except that is also what nestea figures...

jonaa

Netherlands151 Posts

November 10 2011 17:41 GMT

#24

Early game ends for me around 100 supply ish. But this might be because im zerg and for this part of the game I'm usually building up to whatever im going to do. Mid game will be anything between 80 and 200 supply ish pushes harrass etc. lategame once u reach 4 or more bases and get to your final tech stages.

Callynn

Netherlands917 Posts

November 10 2011 17:44 GMT

#25

On November 11 2011 02:41 cLunAsTyY wrote:
Early game ends for me around 100 supply ish. But this might be because im zerg and for this part of the game I'm usually building up to whatever im going to do. Mid game will be anything between 80 and 200 supply ish pushes harrass etc. lategame once u reach 4 or more bases and get to your final tech stages.

You are now basicly using my definitions of the terms to say where the boundaries lie for you as an individual. This is however not the question at all. As I am unsure if I defined the terms correctly I'd like responses that correct or alternate definitions I provided.

1st_Panzer_Div.

United States621 Posts

November 10 2011 17:49 GMT

#26

On November 11 2011 01:58 vaderseven wrote:
Meta = After, Outside or Beyond

MetaGame = The work and decisions you do outside of actually playing the game that will effect how you play the game.

Example 1: Joe has seen 20 replays of Brad and Joe noticed that Brad DT rushed in 12 of those games. Joe is going to mod his build to have an early eng bay for turrets if/when he faces Brad.

Example 2: Joe has been rushed on the ladder every time he does a 1 rax FE. Joe is now going to blindly build 2 bunkers as his expansion goes up.

Example 3: Joe is in the Code S GSL finals and Nestea is his enemy. Nestea JUST 6 pooled in game 1 and won. Joe is certain (or is at least willing to bet) that Nestea won't 6 pool 2 games in a row. Joe opens with a 1 rax and starts the CC before his wall is even done. This allows him to get a bit more econ at the cost of being vulnerable to a 6 pool which he does not think will come. Nestea predicts that Joe will predict that Nestea won't 6 pool and, of course, 6 pools. Nestea has used metagame to beat the metagame move that Joe just made.

Haha, thank you for this. Metagame is just a tool Nestea uses to beat his opponents.

Fuhrmaaj

167 Posts

November 10 2011 17:53 GMT

#27

Four your reference, Liquipedia I is a good starting point for this topic.

1) I think the early game refers to the part of the game where each player executes an opener and commits their entire army to all engagements. This is also the period where cheeses are executed, and natural bases are taken. Games which end in this phase typical end due to cheese or all-in, but can also end to strong pressure such as bunker rushes.

2) This stage of the game is when each player tries to use a portion of their army to harass, a portion to defend and map control is the most important resource. Both players attempt to expand and tech as greedily as they can. Often, the game is decided when entire armies are committed to a push - usually a result of being caught out of position.

3) This is the point where all of the bases are taken and most of the map is in vision. This point of the game relies on small pushes to take map control and harassment to delay the enemy's tech/economy. The goal in the end game is to mine out your side of the map and pick the most efficient engagements while increasing production. This phase typically ends with one long, slow push on multiple fronts while both sides are being constantly reinforced.

4) Metagame literally means "beyond the game." According to Liquipedia:

"The metagame has three major branches, which contain some overlap:

1. Preparation done before a match to exploit current trends in StarCraft.
2. Preparation done specifically to exploit an opponent's or map's style of play.
3. Strategic decisions designed specifically to exploit a player's reaction or weakened mental state in the future. These are also known as 'mind games' or 'psychological warfare'. "

So the current trend of meching in TvT is called metagaming because it's a long-term decision which was made before the game started, based on the prevalence of current strategies and prior success with mech play. Going sky terran against zerg is not a metagame play, but it might be your style in TvZ. Your opponent can metagame you by getting spores in every base before your tech is revealed, then putting out corruptors in the first batch of larva after the spire pops.

BONUS

All-in: This is where you commit all your resources to one big push which is designed to either gain an advantage or win the game. You are all-in when you can't reinforce an engagement and can not defend yourself if you lose your entire army. Some people debate whether or not marine/scv all-ins are actually "all-ins" because you can continue to make marines and after a couple volleys of mules you can be back on your feet. The reason this type of push is all-in is because of Z crushes it, then you will not be able to hold a roach counter and a muta counter could completely destroy your economy because you weren't able to tech behind this push. It is all-in vs P because if Protoss holds well, then they will be able to pressure you with a two base timing and instantly win the game.

Cheese: This is any play which is unconventional relies on not being scouted in order to be successful. These typically include proxy openers, or early tier 1 tech before the opponent has enough tech to defend themselves. The success of a prozy 2 gate, for example, relies on the opponent not scouting your gateways early enough to wall off; pull workers; and/or put down more production facilities to repel the push. Most cheeses are also all-ins. I would not define a cloaked banshee opener as a cheese because standard play dictates that you have detection before the banshee gets cloak, and the banshee can still do a lot of damage even if the opponent knows they're coming.

Of course, all of this is either in my opinion or copied from Liquipedia.

Acritter

Syria7637 Posts

November 10 2011 17:56 GMT

#28

Early game: Start of game to two bases saturated for each player.

Mid game: Two bases saturated for each player to both players reaching endgame unit composition.

Late game: Endgame unit composition and onward.

emythrel

United Kingdom2599 Posts

November 10 2011 17:57 GMT

#29

On November 11 2011 02:35 YaShock wrote:
Is it just me, or people don't use "End" game, rather "Late" game? I personally have never heard "End" game.

Well the concepts of early game, midgame, late game are taken from Chess but not copied. In chess they are Opening, Midgame and Endgame. I used to refer to sc2 in these terms until recently because few others use Opening and Endgame so i switched to late game ;p

sVnteen

Germany2238 Posts

November 10 2011 17:57 GMT

#30

On November 11 2011 01:55 VeryAverage wrote:
That's not the definition of metagame at all... it has nothing to do with what time you are in the game.

Metagame is the use of outside materials to gain an advantage. It's like if I watch 10 replays of a player's TvP and I see he walls off every single time and goes 1 rax expand so I do a void ray all in.

yeah i think youre quite right with this

nice post nonetheless since i like the other definitions you gave

(dont exactly get the purpose of this thread though...)

BabyKnight

Denmark112 Posts

November 10 2011 17:58 GMT

#31

Wow, nobody knows what the word "meta game" means? Wth. It deals with factors outside of the actual game. If you 'metagame' someone, you're abusing something you know outside of the actual game you're playing. Maybe you know the guy you're playing goes mutalisks 90% of the time, so you assume he will do it in this game aswell, and thus you prepare for mutalisks without even scouting it. Tsk. people. Tsk.

Micket

United Kingdom2163 Posts

November 10 2011 17:59 GMT

#32

It is all dependant on the matchup.

TvP:

Early game ends when Terran decides to build a factory after his expand.

Late game starts when Protoss gets a 4 base economy and Terran has more cc than bases.

TvZ: Early game ends when Zerg has got his mutas/infestors / mass upgraded lings out.

Late game starts when Terran has ghosts to counter Zerg tier 3. Basically, early, mid and late game come be mapped to hatch, lair, hive.

PvZ: Early game ends when Protoss takes his expansion and has either twilight or robo tech.

Late game starts when Zerg reaches Hive.

PvP: Mid-Late game barely exists. Midgame starts when the players take their natural.

TvT: Early game ends when a-moving towards your opponent with even with a superior force is stupid (assuming even game).

ZvZ: Early game has lots of aggression. Mid game has no aggression, or mutas. Late game is Hive

emythrel

United Kingdom2599 Posts

November 10 2011 18:00 GMT

#33

On November 11 2011 02:58 The_13abyKnight wrote:
Wow, nobody knows what the word "meta game" means? Wth. It deals with factors outside of the actual game. If you 'metagame' someone, you're abusing something you know outside of the actual game you're playing. Maybe you know the guy you're playing goes mutalisks 90% of the time, so you assume he will do it in this game aswell, and thus you prepare for mutalisks without even scouting it. Tsk. people. Tsk.

Or that in TvZ everyone is doing roach/ling all-ins (example, not actually the case atm) and so you prepare for that blindly or do a build that will beat that all-in but also be safe to other builds.

saynomore

Norway149 Posts

November 10 2011 18:05 GMT

#34

An easy definition is:
Early game is when 1 player is at Tier 1 tech.

Mid game is when both players have reached Tier 2 tech.

Late game is when both players have reached Tier 3 tech.

howLiN

Portugal1676 Posts

November 10 2011 18:07 GMT

#35

On November 11 2011 01:59 Rotodyne wrote:
Anyone that says the m word should be banned

Um, why? Metagame is actually something that has a role in high level tournament games.

stenole

Norway868 Posts

November 10 2011 18:08 GMT

#36

Early game: The part of the game where getting up a startup economy, basic tech, staying alive and doing damage. The goal is coming into the midgame in an advantageous position. It is mostly the same situations in that arrise in different games because there are a small selection of things you and your opponent can do.

Midgame: This part is about comparatively getting ahead of your opponent, either by getting an economic or technological advantage or punishing your opponent from doing the same.

Endgame: Most of the tech is availible. Although both armies may be maxed, it is becoming clear that the remaining minerals and gas on the map and in your banks are finite. Efficiency in battle and fighting for the last few remaining resources are important parts of the endgame.

Metagame: Anything about Starcraft 2 that isn't really about the game, such as what you are writing in chat, playing to lose in a tournament to manipulate brackets, Decisions based on more games being played in a series, like which game of the series to cheese and saving secret strategies for important games or difficult opponents. The fact that this word is used to mean so many different things by different people makes it a better choice not to use this term altogether to avoid misunderstandings and frustration.

yomi

United States773 Posts

November 10 2011 18:08 GMT

#37

Early: The first 10 minutes
Mid: 10-20 minutes
Late: 20+ minutes
Meta: The combined weighted average ranges of player's build order selections.

The "anything outside the game" definition is incorrect, that is gamesmanship.

legatus legionis

Netherlands559 Posts

November 10 2011 18:13 GMT

#38

To reason why many find the actual in game uses for meta game appalling is because it's something you do outside of the game to influence your opponent in order to get an advantage inside the game.

To illustrate. We play ball and I try to pass by you. I can predict you will be faster to step right so I will go over my right. That is not a meta game. Me calling you names, or giving you an elbow are. "Look over there! -> Run past" I have to do something, that influences you, that will make you adjust your play, in order to give me an advantage. Unless those tricks aren't part of the games rule set. Like they would be in rugby. It's not meta. It's still the game itself.

Similarly with soccer, since the yellow and red cards and many types of fouls are defined. They are part of the game. Van Bommel during the most recent World Cup finals using many sneaky types of fouls in order to barely skim by cards, while constantly sucking up to the ref and making friendly talk or keeping others from harrasing the ref and making the ref notice this etc in order to influence him not to punish harshly which allows him to purposely make the fouls. A part of that is meta game. The fouls are not. Exploiting the rules of the game are not. Playing the referee is.

Language is dynamic. If everyone changes the meaning then it doesn't matter what was once right or wrong. The new meaning will get adapted. That is why for so many people trends in strategy get denoted as being the meta game. It's because some people use the word to help describe what they try to illustrate. Like saying cheese or standard, just so you know what I mean, even I don't acknowledge those being actual things. For those listening to that and when the word is new, that will be the meaning they give it.

That is already done by the majority of people. In my eyes the word has been changed to this since years ago. I don't even care if that is good or bad.
Also interesting to read up on is epistemology, "what is knowledge". It would allow me to not have to make the argument for how much value sources like wikipedia or an online dictionary have for this topic.

Early game and whatever fall in the same category as cheese, standard and meta game. Only they have no previous meaning since them come from the game and because of such I see no interest for them. The fact you would have to define what it means implies that it's not usable for communicating since it's obvious people are gonna have many different views on it. At best it can be used to refer to broad strokes. As such trying to define them more in depth seems like a waste.

TheOrigin

Sweden7 Posts

November 10 2011 18:26 GMT

#39

I would say the Metagame is the evolution of viable strategies in the environment of the game. Just like in biological evolution, once a strategy/species exists it is part of the environment and other strategies/species must adapt to it. In this way the metagame keeps evolving and different strategies are born, adapt, branch off and die out.

HigoSeco

Chile232 Posts

November 10 2011 18:48 GMT

#40

I've always seen it like this:

the game is what the rules (of the game) define. In the case of starcraft these rules would be something like the races/buildings/units and their characteristics (hp/energy/skills), the economics of mineral and gas and the condition "destroy all your enemy's buildings to win"

The metagame is how the game is actually played at the competitive level, in particular the strategies for each matchup that are dominant at a given period of time.

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[D] Defining Early, Mid and Meta (end) game - Page 2

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