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On November 08 2011 11:11 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:06 Snaphoo wrote:On November 08 2011 10:46 s3rp wrote:
TvP is just not fun to play . What i hate most that only 1 unit comp is valid unless you cheese. There's basically 5 useful Terran Units in long macro games MMM/Ghosts/Vikings the rest is just gimmicky or near useless unless you push fast with it or get years of time.
Protoss has alot more variation if the chose to use it. Only 1 Techtree is kinda bad against Terran and thats Stargate. For Terran its 2 of 3 Techtrees that just suck against Toss That's 5 units from 2 of 3 tech-trees (Barracks and Starport). Isn't Zea/Stalk/Colossus/HT/Archon pretty much every endgame Toss ball in TvP? 5 units from 2 of the 3 tech-trees? Even if you throw in Immortals, 6 kinds of units vs. 5 doesn't strike me as a "lot more variation." You forget Sentry and DT's and idk if they count Observers(?) ^^ . Maybe even building a Warpprism. Most of the Terran units don't have a role in TvP beyond 15 Minutes. As a Protoss you can at least throw in every unit besides Stargate units without making your actual army worse in big lategame situations. I don't whine about balance but or anything here just how the TvP has to be played . I'm not a cheesy player so I'm basically forced into MMM/Vikings/Ghosts every game.
Rarely do you see more than one or two sentries lategame; they are just there for Guardian Shield, and I see DTs about as frequently as I see Banshees in PvT.
Warp Prisms are a fair point, they are seeing more use these days... but again, Mech is definitely viable (even if not as easy as Bio) as players like Goody and Happy have shown.
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damn i want that blizzcon avatar, looks cool, didn't attend it tho
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I'm a bit unhappy with the EMP changes, for I thought ghosts vs spellcaster energy was quite balanced. Ghosts vs protoss shields may have been a bit imbalanced, but this change affected both. I would've preferred if they nerfed the shield damage and kept the radius.
Cheaper shield upgrades I can understand and it was necessary.
Ground/weapons should've been untouched - since a lot of protoss units benefit from upgrades. Unlike, for instance, terran, who have bio, mech and air upgrades respectively.
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On November 08 2011 09:49 aksfjh wrote:
Can't believe the EMP nerf made it through as is. Wonder how many Terrans will flee during this patch...
I'll just keep one-base all-ining. It's obviously what Blizzard wants terran players to do, considering that terran has to go for what is basically an early/midgame composition all game long and that factory units are worthless. Oh, and every protoss player with any brains will be doing double forge now, as if that style wasn't ridiculously strong already. Tvp has - since the damage modifier was added on tanks - been a garbage match up, now it's going to be worse. And from what I can tell from twiddling with the HOTS custom stuff, the expansion isn't going to make mech work there either. Fun
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Germany222 Posts
So, I expect even less people to play terran. Every patch, the number of terrans shrinks. And with every patch, it has been becoming harder for terrans. And that's kinda sad when Terran is already the least played race on battlenet.
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Hopefully we will see the older style of protoss with high upgrades, and low tech units. I always thought this looked the best with 30 warpgates and clashes across the map instead of the same ball that usually happens.
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On November 08 2011 11:34 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:12 Gatored wrote:On November 08 2011 10:51 Zombo Joe wrote:
So now Protoss has the fastest and cheapest, and most efficient upgrades... At least they now have one advantage over the other races :/ Instant reinforcement anywhere on the map isn't an advantage?
I have no problem with Toss having an Upgrade advantage. Gateway units seem a little too weak and lose to T & Z early units so allowing Toss to have an edge there might balance that more - which I think is good for the game.
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On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted?
In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit.
So yes, I do think they should be on par.
Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable.
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On November 08 2011 11:42 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 09:49 aksfjh wrote:
Can't believe the EMP nerf made it through as is. Wonder how many Terrans will flee during this patch... I'll just keep one-base all-ining. It's obviously what Blizzard wants terran players to do, considering that terran has to go for what is basically an early/midgame composition all game long and that factory units are worthless. Oh, and every protoss player with any brains will be doing double forge now, as if that style wasn't ridiculously strong already. Tvp has - since the damage modifier was added on tanks - been a garbage match up, now it's going to be worse. And from what I can tell from twiddling with the HOTS custom stuff, the expansion isn't going to make mech work there either. Fun
I agree on most point but ...
Ehh i wouldn't give too much about that Custom Map. There will probably alot pretty signifacent in HOTS although smaller changes that haven't been announced yet.
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Germany222 Posts
On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable.
Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots.
oh wait.
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sweet, now that i can only EMP about half of the HT protoss will have his army, I'll also only be able to EMP 1/3 of the Archons he wishes to merge right after! And as soon as I go overboard with Ghosts just to beat archon zealot I may as well just die to a colossus tech switch.
Blizzard had to make the Deathball deathier. Can't wait to see how protoss executes their 1a post patch!
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Ugh, I know blizzard needs to patch it for pro play but TvP is so hard when you don't have the mechanics of pros. People don't realize how hard it is to play Terran when Toss/Zerg can actually macro. Like the other guy said, there's just going to be less and less terrans in ladder.
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The shield cost needed to be reduced, and I agree with it completely so it might see some actual use.
The weapon/armor cost reduction, ehhhhhh....unnecessary. I don't know. Double forge was already pretty strong and widespread, I'm not for or against it, I guess I just don't understand it? What's the point of the reduction?
EMP radius nerf....yikes. I'm ok with this change for TvP, but since it's a smaller radius, I would like to see it drain full energy again. If the intention was to make it less effective in TvP for draining shields, then it needs to be able to actually do its job of draining energy from units properly. It will still be *ok* against HT energy (though will actually take skill to land instead of just EMPing in their general direction), but it's going to be hell to land on any real number of archons (probably as intended), and I'm especially I'm seriously worried about being able to hit the fat infestors.
I'm willing to play with it for a while as-is, but it seems our anti-caster abilities are just getting harder and harder to use every patch....
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I don't see speedlings being useful for anything besides runbys this patch against protoss. There's no reason why a protoss shouldn't be at least 1 attack upgrade ahead of the Zerg and now, shields are going to be upgraded more in the late game as well.
Not too worried... Just a little concerned.
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On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait.
If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly.
If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly.
If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly.
So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots.
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On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait.
lets try casting 1 EMP on moving zealots and 1 storm on moving zealots
don't be stupid now
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On November 08 2011 11:42 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 09:49 aksfjh wrote:
Can't believe the EMP nerf made it through as is. Wonder how many Terrans will flee during this patch... I'll just keep one-base all-ining. It's obviously what Blizzard wants terran players to do, considering that terran has to go for what is basically an early/midgame composition all game long and that factory units are worthless. Oh, and every protoss player with any brains will be doing double forge now, as if that style wasn't ridiculously strong already. Tvp has - since the damage modifier was added on tanks - been a garbage match up, now it's going to be worse. And from what I can tell from twiddling with the HOTS custom stuff, the expansion isn't going to make mech work there either. Fun
I'm trying to understand something, so bear with me.
You're upset that Terrans have to use "an early/midgame composition all game long," which is shorthand for "Barracks units." You lament that "factory units are worthless". OK.
So what exactly is it that you want? It can't be to be able to go for MMM for a while, then transition into Mech. Because the Terran race doesn't work that way. Every Barracks you build for your MMM ball is a Factory you don't have. Every upgrade for your MMM ball is worthless for your eventual transition to Mech.
More than any other race, Terrans are hidebound to a single production structure. You have to pick your path and go with it. You can't go 4-rax and then transition into Mech, because those 4-rax and the associated upgrades are now worthless.
Which means that what you really want is to be able to use a lategame composition all game long. Why is that any better than "an early/midgame composition all game long?" As long as the composition works, who cares what Tier it is?
It seems to me that the problem is the structure of the Terran race. At some point, you become committed to a tech path, and there's nothing you can do except continue to follow it to its inevitable conclusion. You are either going to go with that earlygame composition forever or the lategame one.
It sounds to me like what Terrans need are more StarPort units that can enhance the effectiveness of their "early/midgame composition". Medivacs are a good start, but beefing up the Raven would be a great addendum late-game to give MMM a good kick in the pants.
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On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots.
Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead.
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EPT
