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On November 08 2011 11:46 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:42 Quotidian wrote:On November 08 2011 09:49 aksfjh wrote:
Can't believe the EMP nerf made it through as is. Wonder how many Terrans will flee during this patch... I'll just keep one-base all-ining. It's obviously what Blizzard wants terran players to do, considering that terran has to go for what is basically an early/midgame composition all game long and that factory units are worthless. Oh, and every protoss player with any brains will be doing double forge now, as if that style wasn't ridiculously strong already. Tvp has - since the damage modifier was added on tanks - been a garbage match up, now it's going to be worse. And from what I can tell from twiddling with the HOTS custom stuff, the expansion isn't going to make mech work there either. Fun I agree on most point but ... Ehh i wouldn't give too much about that Custom Map. There will probably alot pretty signifacent in HOTS although smaller changes that haven't been announced yet.
I know. I'm just saying that from what we know about mech in HOTS at the moment, it's not going to be much of an improvement. MAYBE it'll be better against colossus based builds (though I doubt it) but builds like chargelot/archon/ht - especially with some immortals in there - is still going to roll mech, because tanks don't do enough initial damage to archons or zealots. That army will be on top of a siege position extremely quickly. I don't really see the battle hellion really changing the landscape that much either - it seems more like a buff to mech in tvz than anything else. I am of course reserving judgement since everything is subject to change, but I'm not optimistic. And it's not like protoss is getting any less mobile in HOTS with their recalls and what not. There will be no basetrading and no catching a protoss army out of position.
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On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots.
... what?
One EMP kills nothing. Those units are still alive. There's no "effectively killed" anything. EMP doesn't kill anything.
Those units still exist. They still have to be shot to die. They can still do damage. There is no way in which you can say that those units are "dead".
While 1 EMP on 3 Zealots may have done sufficient damage to kill a Zealot, you still have three Zealots. They are weaker, but they have not gone anywhere. An EMP'd Stalker can still kill stuff. A Stalker at 1 health can still kill stuff.
No, 1 EMP kills nothing. What kills the army is the EMP plus the followup attack.
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On November 08 2011 08:35 Deleuze wrote:
Hopefully TvP will be a little more balanced now, though we'll have to see whether the upgrades buff burns my zerg ass...
Afaik according to statistics ZvP is the most imba setup. (In Z's favour). TvP was even favored to P's last month (according to this month's graph at least, and that one should be the most updated one).
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On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait.
Plague sure was weak, I never saw it kill anything!
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On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead.
marines are dead, marauders are not, and you can still save a few marines from it
you can't dodge EMP, you can just try to stay away from the ghost as long as possible and kill them before they get to ur army
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On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead.
You do kill 1/4 of your units when you stim. Have you never over stimmed your army without enough medivacs?
Yes my example is exaggerated because the units still deal dps, however lets not act like 1 storm instantly erases terran armies.
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2 ---> 1.5 is a pretty big change. Remember that the area of a circle is equal to the radius squared; therefore a change of .5 actually means that the size of the circle is only about half as big (2.25/4, or about 9/16), meaning that you'll need double the number of EMP's to carpet an army. I don't know about most terrans, but I don't have the energy to EMP the same number of times again after I hit the toss army. I'm afraid that this will make things even harder for diamond/masters TvP.
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On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots.
Well, in terms of damage, yes, you have dealt the same. But you haven't killed any units yet. It's only dead when you've killed it. If it's dead, it no longer deals any damage. If it's not dead, it will deal damage. That's the difference between the effectiveness of storm vs emp, thus the protoss DPS after spellcasting should/can be higher. Also, anything that lives might be able to run back and recover. Dead units don't.
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yeah balance at the diamond level matters so much :D
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On November 08 2011 11:59 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead. marines are dead, marauders are not, and you can still save a few marines from it you can't dodge EMP, you can just try to stay away from the ghost as long as possible and kill them before they get to ur army
You can still anticipate where he will EMP you and force him to miss, that's what I do vs storm. Oh and you can also spread your units out, that seems like a logical maneuver. Dunno why protoss are having trouble figuring that one out herp derp maybe it's the apm that it takes to actually do it.
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This really makes me want to experiment more with heavy upgraded warpgate compositions now, although I still don't like the emp change. I feel like, although this patch helps, the mechanics of the emp are wrong and simply reducing the size of the radius is not a permanent solution, but rather, a crutch. IMO
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On November 08 2011 12:00 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead. You do kill 1/4 of your units when you stim. Have you never over stimmed your army without enough medivacs? Yes my example is exaggerated because the units still deal dps, however lets not act like 1 storm instantly erases terran armies.
Lol? yes it does?
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On the b.net forums a bunch of people have posted pics of their portrait pages where "starcraft master" is the same picture as the master chef zealot thing.
one of the links they give,
here
not sure how reliable that is though, could be fake.
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On November 08 2011 12:03 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:00 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead. You do kill 1/4 of your units when you stim. Have you never over stimmed your army without enough medivacs? Yes my example is exaggerated because the units still deal dps, however lets not act like 1 storm instantly erases terran armies. Lol? yes it does?
It's 80 damage over 4 seconds and is an enormous investment. Terran only has a couple units that will die from a full storm, and it can easily be nullified just by running backwards and having medivacs overhead.
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On November 08 2011 11:51 IlIlIlIl wrote:
Ugh, I know blizzard needs to patch it for pro play but TvP is so hard when you don't have the mechanics of pros. People don't realize how hard it is to play Terran when Toss/Zerg can actually macro. Like the other guy said, there's just going to be less and less terrans in ladder.
this is actually pretty silly, you're implying that T will be too weak, but it could just as well mean that people chose T before because it was too strong, and now that it may not be that strong anymore those who were seeking an advantage will switch. I doubt a lot of terrans will switch races because of this patch.
Anywho, as P im obviously happy about this, upgrade costs aren't that much of a buff but still nice, while EMP change is huge I think. If its too much Bliz might change it back later, or maybe T will adapt fine, with extra ghosts for example.
its amazing how hard it is to separate yourself from bias towards your race, as most post show (including my own). It would be cool to see a balance discussion threat were only people that play random post
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On November 08 2011 12:02 Avril_Lavigne wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 11:59 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead. marines are dead, marauders are not, and you can still save a few marines from it you can't dodge EMP, you can just try to stay away from the ghost as long as possible and kill them before they get to ur army You can still anticipate where he will EMP you and force him to miss, that's what I do vs storm. Oh and you can also spread your units out, that seems like a logical maneuver. Dunno why protoss are having trouble figuring that one out herp derp maybe it's the apm that it takes to actually do it.
yeah he can split his unit but he has to attack at some point right? and that's when SC2 fucks things up, it becomes a goddamn ball again before u reach ur opponent's army, you just have to back a little bit, it's a cute ball again and u EMP all of it
how about you start playing protoss and try dodging EMPs
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On November 08 2011 12:04 killerdog wrote:On the b.net forums a bunch of people have posted pics of their portrait pages where "starcraft master" is the same picture as the master chef zealot thing. one of the links they give, herenot sure how reliable that is though, could be fake.
That's what it was pre-patch
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On November 08 2011 12:04 killerdog wrote:On the b.net forums a bunch of people have posted pics of their portrait pages where "starcraft master" is the same picture as the master chef zealot thing. one of the links they give, herenot sure how reliable that is though, could be fake.
That was, presumably, just a placeholder.
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OK, I must admit that I'm a sad Marine now.
How come Terran doesn't get a powerful unit that we can simply a move with hardly any micro? Zergs get the broodlord, Toss gett the collossi... all in the meantime us Terrans keep getting nerfed and are expected to micro EVEN MORE!
I used to do the 1 rax fe and 2 rax pressure fe builds against Toss.....
I'm debating wether if I should now resort to doing the 1-1-1. If us Terrans keep spamming the 1-1-1 build, we'll just see more continous QQ from other races accusing us Terrans of being imba. I think we should just do the 1 rax fe builds now and hope to god we don't get nerfed even more.
Hang on, what am I saying? No matter what Terran does, we will just keep getting nerfed lol. Screw it, I'm spamming 1-1-1 against every fkn toss now.
I feel sorry for new players that are introduced to the game a couple years from now. It will be like, "Why the fuck do I have to micro so god damn much just to stay even with a toss or zerg army? They can just a move me!" I will reply "Well, back in the day everyone constantly QQ'd about the Terran race and basically blizzard just nerfed it into the ground, so don't bother with Terran.... just go play Toss or Zerg and simply macro a move "
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On November 08 2011 12:06 ReignFayth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2011 12:02 Avril_Lavigne wrote:On November 08 2011 11:59 ReignFayth wrote:On November 08 2011 11:57 s3rp wrote:On November 08 2011 11:55 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:47 Kwanny wrote:On November 08 2011 11:46 Snorkle wrote:On November 08 2011 11:36 Eps wrote:On November 08 2011 11:27 Snorkle wrote:
If the range on emp is still 10 instead of 9 ghosts will still emp templar before they can feedback/storm ghosts... not even mentioning snipe meh.
I still think feedback needs to be same range as snipe (10)
Something is better than nothing though. Ghosts are meant to be Anti-Caster units, that's what they do. Do you really think the Templar should be on par with essentially dedicated Anti-Caster Units? And have one of the best AOE spells in the game, And have the option to morph into a Bio-Wrecking ball when their energy is depleted? In the tvp matchup they are actually the anti-everything protoss makes unit. So yes, I do think they should be on par. Storm as best AOE spell in the game is laughable. Yeah, it's kinda imbalanced, that 1 emp kills tons of zealots. oh wait. If you hit 3 zealots with 1 emp you effectively killed a zealot instantly. If you hit 2 stalkers with an emp you effectively killed a stalker instantly. If you carpet bomb the entire protoss army in emp's you effectively cut his army in half, instantly. So yes, in application 1 emp kills tons of zealots. Thats like saying if i stim i kill 1/4 of my units , total bullcrap. The units will still do damage because they aren't dead unlike Biounits hit by storm , those are actually dead. marines are dead, marauders are not, and you can still save a few marines from it you can't dodge EMP, you can just try to stay away from the ghost as long as possible and kill them before they get to ur army You can still anticipate where he will EMP you and force him to miss, that's what I do vs storm. Oh and you can also spread your units out, that seems like a logical maneuver. Dunno why protoss are having trouble figuring that one out herp derp maybe it's the apm that it takes to actually do it. yeah he can split his unit but he has to attack at some point right? and that's when SC2 fucks things up, it becomes a goddamn ball again before u reach ur opponent's army, you just have to back a little bit, it's a cute ball again and u EMP all of it how about you start playing protoss and try dodging EMPs
Now granted I don't play Protoss at a super duper high level, but at Mid Master level I can easily win late game with a simple 1a and doing absolutely nothing all game long but turtling
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EPT
