|
On October 27 2011 11:07 On_Slaught wrote:
Well, in a couple of months after beta we will be able to come back to this thread and either call TT1 a prophet or an f'n idiot.
While I have no say on which one it will likely be, I would like to point out that nobody can say what is worthy of SC or what is a "sc-esque" unit/ability outside of blizzard themselves. I don't care if TT1 is the best player in the world, his opinion on what "ought" be in SC from a design point of view has as much value as my opinion (none). The only issue is balance and THAT is something we can't know yet.
That makes this entire thread pointless, albeit funny.
true and that's what I think, the more I think about it. I also have some points I don't agree with with the new units, but I guess it's not even alpha so yeah...
|
I especially agree with the last bit, most P will just keep using the tried and tested I think because most of the new units are (as you said) so role specific and, imo pretty gimmicky.
|
On October 27 2011 11:15 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:09 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 12:36 Silidons wrote:On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 11:52 Jayrod wrote:On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) Bumping this because of the 5 idiots that posted his pet-peeve afterwards TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. Yea this guy really called TT1 an idiot On October 02 2011 16:52 McPhiz wrote:
well im still bronze and i've played all three races and i almost never lose with P or Z, T seems to be the hardest for me! Just for reference. Please don't call pros idiots. Lol you are creepy man. I wasn't even talking about him being an idiot about the game, he is obviously way more knowledgable about that, I don't have time to play as much as him. I'm just saying he is being an idiot in general. But you were criticizing his abilities about the game?
ummmm. read the quote maybe? I said he is an idiot for thinking the replicator is only for one build. That's the only criticism i gave to TT1, nothing about him being shitty at the game.
|
On October 27 2011 11:31 Phenny wrote:
I especially agree with the last bit, most P will just keep using the tried and tested I think because most of the new units are (as you said) so role specific and, imo pretty gimmicky.
Ironically, other people are complaining (see last page) that things aren't static enough. You can't please everyone.
|
This post is based solely on the fact that you think BO's and Timing Attacks will remain the exact same in HOTS. Which is will NOT. The added spice of new units will change BO's, Timing Attacks etc around meaning 1 Base All In's will NOT happen, and if it does.. then hey, you've got an awesome unit to counter and win the game. It'd be stupid for a Terran to use an old BO which can be "hard-countered," therefore Terrans will have to mix it up and do different things.
|
only thing i'd point out is that blizzard said they wanted the new toss units to be separate from the deathball. protoss players in general wanted more harass-based units, and zerg players complained hard about 2 base toss deathballs and such. i will agree that the toss army can be pretty boring, mostly due to zealot/stalker reliance on FF and splash and how boring the colossus is
|
i only agree with the last part of the "wall of text". P unit comps will basically not change, sure you can pseudo-harass a mineral line and get a few siege tanks or whatever but it wont change much.
|
the oracle i like, it adds the idea of harass and pros can maximize this, highering the overall skillcap of toss, but the replicator is just GIMMICKY and stupid.
|
On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community)
With all due respect, I think this is an awful opinion.
First of all, Blizzard takes input from the community with a grain of salt. Actually, they take it with an entire salt shaker. How long have we been asking for LAN support? I might be wrong, but I think weve been asking for it since before the Beta even came out. Seems like a great idea, I support it completely. And yet the answer from Blizzard has been a definitive 'No'. The fact that you think that our opinions on balance/design before a game even enters the Beta phase even registers on Blizzard's radar is a little naive from my point of view. Something like LAN option they wont listen to us about, yet the overall design an unreleased game (but heavily invested in) they will listen to us? I doubt they see it as any more than the usual baseless whining, and Im inclined to agree with that.
Secondly, as much as I agree with anyone's right to express their opinions, I think in this case it's completely useless. You have no idea how the units will play out. Remember creep tumors? People said its a shit mechanic and useless. Now its a core part of zerg gameplay that can help distinguish the strong players from the mediocre players. Remember hellions? People said they were worse at harass than vultures. Now, theyve been nerfed due to how strong they were at harass. I can come up with as many examples of why Blizzard has good reason not to listen to the players. People complain all the time without giving good reasons. Communities raise baseless concerns because they aren't willing to fully accept new changes all the time as well.
Finally, I just need some kind of explanation. How the hell can you judge something before you even get a chance to play it? Go ahead and judge it, Im not arguing that you arent allowed to. Im saying that your opinion is a baseless opinion due to lack of hands-on exposure to the thing youre complaining about, and thus its basically useless in terms of constructive feedback. The only change I can think of that happened that might have been due to community feedback despite not having access to the game was the brightness of the colors. It looked more cartoony in the beginning than it does now. Then again, we dont need to play the game to judge that (seeing gameplay vids and screenshots is good enough exposure to judge a game's graphics).
Unless you can convince me that all this negativity is more than just the typical adversity to any kind of change, Im still gonna see all these complaints as irrational whining.
|
LAN is absolutely irrelevant to game design balance and community input regarding that aspect of the game. They were pretty adamant about their position from day1; I don't see how that translates to shutting themselves off completely.
|
Progamer QQ is still just QQ. If anyone else posted this, they'd get a warning.
Seriously TT1, give it a chance before you start on with the "this won't work, and that won't work" nonsense.
|
I'm with TT1 on this one. A lot of HOTS units that seem too futuristic, outside what we have come to expect in SC units. It might work fine and eventually they'll get the balance right, but is this the right direction?
Only time will tell.
Its totally possible that SC2 never lives up to Brood War as an RTS but NA and global E-sports continues to grow exponentially. I think the genie's out of the bottle on E-sports and the growth is inevitable regardless.
That doesn't mean the games get better. Just that E-sports time has come. SC2 was the catalyst that sparked the E-sports revolution. But that's a different discussion from the game play and game quality.
|
On October 27 2011 11:34 McPhiz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:15 rotegirte wrote:On October 27 2011 11:09 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 12:36 Silidons wrote:On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 11:52 Jayrod wrote:On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) Bumping this because of the 5 idiots that posted his pet-peeve afterwards TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. Yea this guy really called TT1 an idiot On October 02 2011 16:52 McPhiz wrote:
well im still bronze and i've played all three races and i almost never lose with P or Z, T seems to be the hardest for me! Just for reference. Please don't call pros idiots. Lol you are creepy man. I wasn't even talking about him being an idiot about the game, he is obviously way more knowledgable about that, I don't have time to play as much as him. I'm just saying he is being an idiot in general. But you were criticizing his abilities about the game? ummmm. read the quote maybe? I said he is an idiot for thinking the replicator is only for one build. That's the only criticism i gave to TT1, nothing about him being shitty at the game.
Look, it's quite unnerving to explain your own post to you. Generally speaking, pro players tend to have a better understanding in which things work and which don't. "Potentially" everything can be used for anything.
So might it have slipped your mind that when TT1 was writing about the replicator, he would have been thinking about the viable uses and timings of the replicator, he would have gone through a variety of possibilities. Assuming he likely did make use of his professional experience, he came to said conclusion.
Now you were calling him an idiot for doing exactly that.
|
On October 27 2011 11:55 BentoBox wrote:
LAN is absolutely irrelevant to game design balance and community input regarding that aspect of the game. They were pretty adamant about their position from day1; I don't see how that translates to shutting themselves off completely.
Thats exactly my point. Design and balance require hands-on exposure to actually form a rational opinion based on evidence. LAN option does not, and yet they dont listen to us at all when it comes to that. If they dont listen to us on a completely isolated issue that seems to have no opposers, what makes you think theyll listen to people whining about things they havent even gotten to play yet?
|
Whenever they talk about winrates in Bronze and Silver and try to make balance adjustments on that I cry a little inside. You can literally win every game from bronze to plat if you just BFH drop. Thats why blue flame was nerfed.
If you balance from the bottom, its a quick race to the bottom, I seen many people in gold and silver complaining that mutalisks are over powered, what they don't say is they lost to mutalisks once and they are using it as an excuse to make themselves feel better.
I used to complain about the 6 gate allin, but since I learned how to counter it and I haven't complained since. Balance whine is just what it is, baseless whining. The only time things should be changed is when the game needs a shift and a metagame shift is not enough, a good example was reaper rush in the beta. There was no way to defend it.
|
heres whats going to happen.....
replicator gets removed it just cant stay
replaced with some sort of core Protoss Unit ...
I think everyone would be pretty happy
maybe Hydra speed moved to Lair and Baneling burrow movement removed
(Im a Zerg)
|
On October 27 2011 11:58 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:55 BentoBox wrote:
LAN is absolutely irrelevant to game design balance and community input regarding that aspect of the game. They were pretty adamant about their position from day1; I don't see how that translates to shutting themselves off completely. Thats exactly my point. Design and balance require hands-on exposure to actually form a rational opinion based on evidence. LAN option does not, and yet they dont listen to us at all when it comes to that. If they dont listen to us on a completely isolated issue that seems to have no opposers, what makes you think theyll listen to people whining about things they havent even gotten to play yet?
They've justified many times why LAN wasn't doable based on Bnet2.0's infrastructure.
They've very explicitely asked for community input on all the new units at Blizzcon.
What more do you want...
|
On October 27 2011 11:58 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:34 McPhiz wrote:On October 27 2011 11:15 rotegirte wrote:On October 27 2011 11:09 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 12:36 Silidons wrote:On October 26 2011 12:03 McPhiz wrote:On October 26 2011 11:52 Jayrod wrote:On October 26 2011 11:49 -orb- wrote:
My number one pet peeve with people responding to threads and arguments like this are people that say wait until the game is out to see.
Yes, it's hard to judge before we can play the game, but that's what everyone said about the biggest problems people had with stuff in WoL. Then all the things some people complained about (but others said wait until the game is out) were too ingrained in the balance and design of the game to be removed at that stage. We have to weed out this terrible bullshit before it gets to beta stage or it will usually be too late.
So please, those of you that snap-respond to every argument about the new units with "wait until you can actually play it to see," think about what you're saying. If no one considered the implications of new units and instead just sat around waiting for beta to come out, we'd end up with a terrible game (as we can see based on the decisions blizzard makes when not guided by the community) Bumping this because of the 5 idiots that posted his pet-peeve afterwards TT1 is the idiot if he thinks the replicator is only to beat one build. The sc2 community has to get their thinking caps on and try to understand the uses of the unit, it wouldn't even be that good against a 1-1-1 would it? I'm only posting what i did because it seems like people don't have the ability to understand what uses all of these units have. Try to understand and actually think about if before you talk about how bad any unit is. Yea this guy really called TT1 an idiot On October 02 2011 16:52 McPhiz wrote:
well im still bronze and i've played all three races and i almost never lose with P or Z, T seems to be the hardest for me! Just for reference. Please don't call pros idiots. Lol you are creepy man. I wasn't even talking about him being an idiot about the game, he is obviously way more knowledgable about that, I don't have time to play as much as him. I'm just saying he is being an idiot in general. But you were criticizing his abilities about the game? ummmm. read the quote maybe? I said he is an idiot for thinking the replicator is only for one build. That's the only criticism i gave to TT1, nothing about him being shitty at the game. Look, it's quite unnerving to explain your own post to you. Generally speaking, pro players tend to have a better understanding in which things work and which don't. "Potentially" everything can be used for anything. So might it have slipped your mind that when TT1 was writing about the replicator, he would have been thinking about the viable uses and timings of the replicator, he would have gone through a variety of possibilities. Assuming he likely did make use of his professional experience, he came to said conclusion. Now you were calling him an idiot for doing exactly that.
Okay well i'm done replying to these silly posts. But do you honestly think that he really put the time and effort into thinking of every way the replicator could possibly be used? No he acted irrationally because he was trying to prove a point. With some work the replicator might find it's way into the game and have some viable timings that it may exploit. But oh no TT1 said it's only for one thing which it wouldn't even be that great at during the pre-alpha phase, so let's all just listen to a second tier pro player and ignore every other fact we are presented with.
|
On October 27 2011 12:11 BentoBox wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 11:58 Supamang wrote:On October 27 2011 11:55 BentoBox wrote:
LAN is absolutely irrelevant to game design balance and community input regarding that aspect of the game. They were pretty adamant about their position from day1; I don't see how that translates to shutting themselves off completely. Thats exactly my point. Design and balance require hands-on exposure to actually form a rational opinion based on evidence. LAN option does not, and yet they dont listen to us at all when it comes to that. If they dont listen to us on a completely isolated issue that seems to have no opposers, what makes you think theyll listen to people whining about things they havent even gotten to play yet? They've justified many times why LAN wasn't doable based on Bnet2.0's infrastructure. They've very explicitely asked for community input on all the new units at Blizzcon. What more do you want...
Lan works in the chinese cracked version of the game, why wouldn't it work anywhere else?
|
On October 27 2011 12:32 Zombo Joe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 12:11 BentoBox wrote:On October 27 2011 11:58 Supamang wrote:On October 27 2011 11:55 BentoBox wrote:
LAN is absolutely irrelevant to game design balance and community input regarding that aspect of the game. They were pretty adamant about their position from day1; I don't see how that translates to shutting themselves off completely. Thats exactly my point. Design and balance require hands-on exposure to actually form a rational opinion based on evidence. LAN option does not, and yet they dont listen to us at all when it comes to that. If they dont listen to us on a completely isolated issue that seems to have no opposers, what makes you think theyll listen to people whining about things they havent even gotten to play yet? They've justified many times why LAN wasn't doable based on Bnet2.0's infrastructure. They've very explicitely asked for community input on all the new units at Blizzcon. What more do you want... Lan works in the chinese cracked version of the game, why wouldn't it work anywhere else?
there's your answer right there
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
