|
Interesting changes, as a Terran player I'll stay neutral on the EMP change until I see it in action, too volatile a subject to making calls on in theorycrafting.
As for the upgrades, I get the shield upgrades as 200/200 for level 1 was harsh, but I don't fully understand the reduction in armor and attack upgrades.
Most Protoss units already start with 1 armor, which together with Guardian Shield effectively goes up to 3 in PvT engagements.
Although the cost change is only minor (25/25 here, 50/50 there) I wonder why they were needed.
Colossi with attack upgrades are pretty scary as it is.
Guess we will have to see how the changes affect the matchup before making any significant calls.
At the same time, I don't think the changes will be that huge, I just hope the Terran/EMP whines/cries will start dying down a bit now.
|
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
(BTW random question: is there a way to change my username in the forum? The Edit Profile doesn't seem to have that option)
|
On October 26 2011 19:28 Brutalisk_SC1 wrote:
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
6/7gate gets attack ups. 4gate blink MIGHT get +1, never +2.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
Because Protoss sucks ass in Korea.
|
On October 26 2011 19:01 Rinkku wrote:
One thing :
EMP range : 10 + 1,5 ( we often forget that the radius counts a lot) = 11,5
Feedback range : 9
ht still < ghost in fair battle with equal skill, and i don't even mention the cloak/snipe ability and the fact that the ht is slow as hell.
The nerf should be on the range rather than on the radius, we want to counter ghost in fair skill battle with our ht, not praying that with the help of God, the decreased radius of the emp won't touch our spellcasters anymore !
Well at least now EMP is the size of psi storm (psi storm got nerfed to 1.5 a long time ago) 
But yeah, I see your point about wanting to make them equal ranged spells, so the casters would have equal chance of cancelling each other out.
|
These changes are magnificent!
|
On October 26 2011 09:16 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:09 VirgilSC2 wrote:On October 26 2011 09:06 SolidMoose wrote:On October 26 2011 09:01 Shiori wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. are you seriously implying professional protoss players only a-move whereas every terran bronze and up is a paragon of micro? grow up. ghosts were OP and EMP is still the best of the 3 spells. Because a spell that can never kill is better than a damage + snare and a massive high damage damage spell that can almost kill a marine twice over. No, emp was meh, now it sucks. EMP does it's damage instantly from a fast, cloakable unit that has an auto attack as well as the ability to cast Snipe and launch Nukes. Storm does it's damage over time at a (currently) smaller radius, which you can micro out of, from a slow, always visible unit with no other method of protection. I personnaly never killed with EMP, can you show me how to do please ?
You dont need to kill with EMP. You EMP, protoss units lose 33-50% of their health and all their spells, you stim, and run in with your bio, because stimed bio is much faster than the protoss composition, and the protoss cant retreat without heavy losess. You may want to try this tactic, it's super effective.
|
I think these are great changes. Protoss need to be able to get bang for their buck on units, so it makes sense they get cheaper upgrades. Plus it synergises well with good chrono usage. EMP vs toss was also just silly so hopefully this matchup will be much less one-sided now. I also think its' good to make ghosts very slightly less strong vs zerg (still not sure about snipe vs BL/ultra but I'll leave that for another day).
|
On October 26 2011 19:28 Brutalisk_SC1 wrote:
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
(BTW random question: is there a way to change my username in the forum? The Edit Profile doesn't seem to have that option)
Im exited for the shield upgrade cheapen because it will make my blink stalker micro vs zerg much more effective.
PS.
On September 13 2004 22:42 mensrea wrote:8. THOU SHALL RESPECT YOUR ID In limited circumstances we do allow users to change their IDs later on, but we generally discourage it. It's all about respecting your own name. If you have a legitimate reason for changing IDs (for example, you need to change your clan tag), let us know in the Website Feedback Forum and we'll be happy to accommodate.
|
On October 26 2011 19:01 Rinkku wrote:
One thing :
EMP range : 10 + 1,5 ( we often forget that the radius counts a lot) = 11,5
Feedback range : 9
ht still < ghost in fair battle with equal skill, and i don't even mention the cloak/snipe ability and the fact that the ht is slow as hell.
The nerf should be on the range rather than on the radius, we want to counter ghost in fair skill battle with our ht, not praying that with the help of God, the decreased radius of the emp won't touch our spellcasters anymore !
Agreed.
EMP out-ranges its counter and aoe is infinitely easier to pull off vs single target and vs multiple targets.
|
On October 26 2011 19:28 Brutalisk_SC1 wrote:
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
(BTW random question: is there a way to change my username in the forum? The Edit Profile doesn't seem to have that option)
To try and make Protoss a little more cost-efficient with the upgrades, because Blizzard admitted that Protoss was feeling generally weaker (not surprisingly). Protoss shield upgrades never gets touched (even +1 is a bit of an investment early on), and keep in mind that although armor generally works on all Protoss units (as opposed to just ground or just air), it only works on the health- not the shields. Protoss upgrades used to cost more than the Terran or Zerg upgrades. Now, they're costing a normal amount.
Not that saving a few minerals or gas (especially when you're off multiple bases) will really do anything gamebreaking (in reality, it'll allow Protoss to start the higher upgrades about 5-10 seconds earlier), but they wanted to lower the costs so that they're not as heavy an initial investment (especially shields). Quite frankly, they should have been these new costs from the beginning, in my opinion.
|
On October 26 2011 18:48 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 18:32 k1p3r wrote:
At least protoss can upgrade shields now! Very nice decreased armor and attack research also.
And EMP finally nerfed. But still marine/maradeur/meds tactic dominates for all TvP mathes. As i play mostly random, i feel that nerfed EMP will be good for Toss, but still hit and run problem will be.
It would be also good to nerf NUKES, because in late game TvZ it really hurts. Something like only 1 nuke for 1 ghost. 1 nuke can kill 26 workers -> that's 1300 minerals!!! and nuke with ghost cost 100/100. + 200/100= 300/100.
nerf Nukes ? I mean you can press spacebar and get immidiatly to the nuke and run away everything ....
Lol seriously? Would change teamgames for me
|
Russian Federation473 Posts
that's just great...
/sarcasm
|
On October 26 2011 19:28 Brutalisk_SC1 wrote:
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
(BTW random question: is there a way to change my username in the forum? The Edit Profile doesn't seem to have that option)
Since you have less than 100 posts you should Post here for a name change. Yeah, it's expected that you keep to one account and one name per account once you get past a hundred or so posts. Respect thy ID and all that.
|
On October 26 2011 09:30 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This also means cloak is a massive advantage for the ghost. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage I totally agree with you with the fact that Ghosts are more valuable units than HT's. But HT's are stronger, because they do AoE damage ( stop saying that EMP does damage, please ), and they can Feedback, which are too very offensive spells. Aswell, they are a bit cheaper. Now, this is really hard to argue. It's not the same type of unit. HT are really strong when they are with an army, but Ghosts are better individual. EMP is clearly very strong. But man, Colossus + HT + Archon + Mass Zealot is almost impossible to beat as Terran, even if you have a very good micro. The problem is that Protoss is too limited in his actions to do a good fight.
EMP does more damage, than storm on average. It does not kill, but it doesnt have to. With stimed units, which are faster than anything protoss have, you can force an engagement, after you have landed the EMPs. So stop saying that a protoss can retreat after being EMPed. He cant retreat. And thus EMP damage cant be regenerated.
EMP > storm
|
People who say shield damage isn't damage make my mind break. DK specifically said they were concerned about how much damage EMP did to Protoss balls.
|
On October 26 2011 09:32 Nightshake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 09:31 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:28 aksfjh wrote:On October 26 2011 09:24 mordk wrote:On October 26 2011 09:15 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 09:04 Snaphoo wrote:On October 26 2011 09:00 Nightshake wrote:On October 26 2011 08:54 The Final Boss wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This makes no sense whatsoever. Protoss already gets their upgrades faster with Chronoboost, now they cost less, and our spellcaster is weaker. Blizzard makes absolutely no sense. I really hope that they realize that this doesn't balance the game, it just makes Protoss even more ridiculously powerful.
Late game PvT is so strong with upgrades and High Templar already, in no way does it need a buff. Protoss players just need to rely less on Colossi to a-move to free wins and play more like HasuObs and utilize High Templar more. You basically have to go MMMGV against Protoss (at least to have a reliable composition), and High Templar destroy that even if you only land one of two good storms (which can be reliably achieved if you take precautions against Ghosts, something a lot of Protoss players neglect to do...) then you can easily destroy that army. Then, if you have better upgrades you roll through the army easily.
It seems that Blizzard only does their balance changes based on Korea (which would make sense), except that every Protoss player I watch does some sort of one or two base timing attack and they don't even look to play late game. MC and other Korean Protoss players will continue to go 6 Gate or 3 Gate Void Ray and this will not affect them at all. Then outside of Korea Protoss players will continue to dominate every Terran they meet.
If Blizzard is going to nerf EMP then they should also nerf radius of Storm and Fungal Growth.
Terran armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will always lose to Protoss armies. Protoss armies that are significantly behind in upgrades will sometimes lose depending on positioning and control. Now double forge and Colossi are going to destroy everything and High Templar are stronger too. Really there is no point in this whatsoever.
TL;DR: Korean Ts are good, Korean Ps are bad. Outside of Koreans, Ts do badly, outside of Koreans, Ps destroy. P doesn't need buffs, they need to play smarter, stop doing timing attacks, and rely more on well controlled High Templar than a-moving Colossi. These changes make no sense, I'm just going to 1-1-1 every Protoss I meet on ladder. I just...completely agree.... Watch some GSL on GomTvT instead of deciding that your experiences in Platinum should guide Blizz balancing decisions. I'm glad you feel qualified to judge how good Korean Ps are-- could it be, though, that you just need to learn to play better against Protoss and that in fact T has a balance advantage over P? I would trust the experience of GSL Code S results since GAME RELEASE with the exception of MC over that of the ladder experience of a random TL poster. mjwNshake 863 (master Terran) Milkshake 558 (master Protoss) Who said I was Platinum ? I have the right to agree to something. Please stop talking about leagues, it's stupid, especially witht he fact that I'm master with both races, so I think i can be quite objective. In face, PvT is quite balanced, but the metagame is just a huge disorder, where it's batlle between mass Ghosts/Vikings and mass Colossus/HT. Ghosts own HTs hard in almost any possible situation. The only way a HT can be more effective than a Ghost is if Protoss has sight advantage (which allows feedback) which is impossible because of scans killing observers easily. This is best seen in the only TSL3 game between MC and ThorZain on TDA. MC was playing masterfully, actually countering everything TZ did, yet he was starting to fall behind because of ghosts. Then TZ made a mistake with his ghosts, leaving them too close to the ramp at the exit of MC's natural. This allowed HTs to feedback safely, and won MC a crucial encounter. Without sight advantage, you cannot beat Ghosts. It's basically because Ghosts are faster, and considering AoE, EMP has the longer range, so they control the pace of the GvHT balance because of their micro advantage Man, if only Protoss had other units ghosts didn't counter so well, maybe a giant unit that had siege range and did a lot of damage, or another unit that requires a lot of DPS to kill, has much more life than shields, and can be massed easily... Oh well, guess ghosts are just too good without these units... LOL.... You understand the standard composition to counter colossi includes vikings too right? You understand that once ghosts shoot their EMP it doesn't matter if they die right? You realize you're stating ghosts are useless against colo when they actually deal 100 instant damage to them as well, while also hitting all units below them right? God... people can be so shortsighted... Again, try to kill with Ghosts.
Easy.
- I EMP, and thus reduce the overall HP of toss units by 33-50%
- I stim and engage (protoss cant retreat, because bio with stim is much faster)
- Because protoss cant retreat, he cant regenerate the shield damage, so it stays relevant in the fight
- ?????
- Profit
|
|
|
On October 26 2011 19:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2011 19:28 Brutalisk_SC1 wrote:
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
(BTW random question: is there a way to change my username in the forum? The Edit Profile doesn't seem to have that option) To try and make Protoss a little more cost-efficient with the upgrades, because Blizzard admitted that Protoss was feeling generally weaker (not surprisingly). Protoss shield upgrades never gets touched (even +1 is a bit of an investment early on), and keep in mind that although armor generally works on all Protoss units (as opposed to just ground or just air), it only works on the health- not the shields. Protoss upgrades used to cost more than the Terran or Zerg upgrades. Now, they're costing a normal amount. Not that saving a few minerals or gas (especially when you're off multiple bases) will really do anything gamebreaking (in reality, it'll allow Protoss to start the higher upgrades about 5-10 seconds earlier), but they wanted to lower the costs so that they're not as heavy an initial investment (especially shields). Quite frankly, they should have been these new costs from the beginning, in my opinion.
Bold part - am I missing something here? Last time I played I'm pretty sure I upgraded air units at the Cyber Core.
I'm fine with the changes. Upgrade costs are now more balanced overall and for the EMP radius we have to see how it plays out. Still waiting for Snipe (terrible, terrible damage for almost no cost) and EMP range (outrangeing supposed counter spell by far?) nerfs.
|
On October 26 2011 18:21 rEalGuapo wrote:
I still think that Zergs do not use all their abilities. I have seen SO FEW Nydus Networks in SC2. Seriously, you can move your entire army or a part of it ultra fast.
i doubt you play zerg.
say blizz required that once you rally a medivac to drop, you can't control it at all. if you rally a drop, it's gonna drop. once you arrive to where you're going to drop, you need to make sure you have a 3x3 space before you sit there for 15 seconds. once your 15 seconds is up, the enemy gets an audio notification "TERRAN IS DROPPING FROM A MEDIVAC" as you unload your first unit. remember, you can't go back, and your medivac doesn't heal at all. if you want to retreat the enemy gets to kill your medivac. if you want to drop with two medivacs, you have to wait 15 seconds after your first medivac waits 15 seconds. or you could build two starports so you can have 2 medivacs at the same time.
strange why a zerg would never want that.
|
On October 26 2011 19:57 Teiwaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2011 19:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 26 2011 19:28 Brutalisk_SC1 wrote:
The terran change makes sense. The forge change does not...
Most 4-gate blink strategies focus on also getting 2 attack upgrades on those stalkers. They've made it now even easier to do so.
The Shield cost decrease would help those who use Immos early on, as a shield upgrade, especially early in the game will greatly increase the survivability of an Immo.
Does anyone know why Blizz opted to make these upgrades cheaper?
(BTW random question: is there a way to change my username in the forum? The Edit Profile doesn't seem to have that option) To try and make Protoss a little more cost-efficient with the upgrades, because Blizzard admitted that Protoss was feeling generally weaker (not surprisingly). Protoss shield upgrades never gets touched (even +1 is a bit of an investment early on), and keep in mind that although armor generally works on all Protoss units (as opposed to just ground or just air), it only works on the health- not the shields. Protoss upgrades used to cost more than the Terran or Zerg upgrades. Now, they're costing a normal amount. Not that saving a few minerals or gas (especially when you're off multiple bases) will really do anything gamebreaking (in reality, it'll allow Protoss to start the higher upgrades about 5-10 seconds earlier), but they wanted to lower the costs so that they're not as heavy an initial investment (especially shields). Quite frankly, they should have been these new costs from the beginning, in my opinion. Bold part - am I missing something here? Last time I played I'm pretty sure I upgraded air units at the Cyber Core. I'm fine with the changes. Upgrade costs are now more balanced overall and for the EMP radius we have to see how it plays out. Still waiting for Snipe (terrible, terrible damage for almost no cost) and EMP range (outrangeing supposed counter spell by far?) nerfs.
How much dmg does a fungal or a storm do to a pack of MM? If you hit 10 marines in a storm that's 750 dmg for the full duration, so let's say the terran reacts quickly and pulls it out in half the time, thats 375 dmg for 75 energy. How much of this "terrible terrible damage" do you get from 75 énergy? you get 135 damage in total, congratulations you can kill a roach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
