KT Rolster getting some serious hardware. - Page 10

On October 25 2011 10:59 domovoi wrote:

Uh, or how about the fact that all the best players stayed in BW because the money is better if you're well-established? Foreign SC2 players are essentially playing Korean B-teamers, so of course you would expect a bit more volatility in the results because foreigners aren't completely incompetent. And, yet, foreigners still get dominated for the most part. There isn't even a single foreigner in GSL code S.

On October 25 2011 10:59 domovoi wrote:

Uh, or how about the fact that all the best players stayed in BW because the money is better if you're well-established? Foreign SC2 players are essentially playing Korean B-teamers, so of course you would expect a bit more volatility in the results because foreigners aren't completely incompetent. And, yet, foreigners still get dominated for the most part. There isn't even a single foreigner in GSL code S.

On October 25 2011 09:45 Holcan wrote:

First of all, Grubby and Moon both compete in wc3 STILL, so practicing two games will ultimately hinder your results in the game you care less about, and has more volatile results. Also Moon places 2nd in pretty much every LAN he attends in sc2, except for MLG Columbus, please explain how that isn't dominate? Also didn't he get into GSL very quickly, while still playing Wc3? Only dropping out of it once he achieved his dream of attending WCG representing Korea? I'm sorry, but no. Also the difference from wc3-> sc2 is closer than bw-> wc3, hence why almost every foreign professional is an ex-wc3 player, at least in terms of general talent, as far as meta game goes, of course sc1 players dominate.

Also for your original argument, its pretty much gone out the window, since well go to the Korean ladder and play, and two weeks later you'll be facing those strats on NA, while the Koreans have moved on. Their meta game defines the current meta game of sc2, the fact the game is easier allows the NA players to compete, but you're truly viewing this through painted glass if you feel that IdrA, HuK, or the countless other players whom developed "skills" could hack it in BW in anything past a practice squad. The fact of the matter is, the simplicity of the game, and its mechanics, allowed those players to compete. Please note ive never said this was a bad thing, RTS needed to be dumbed down for the international fan base, now that it is, my favourite facet of esports can move forward.

On October 25 2011 11:07 ptrpb wrote:

HuK.
As for the rest of your point, it should be clear to anyone that SC:BW != SC2. There is no programer who has been able to switch and instantly dominate. ForGG has been playing for months; July, NaDa, and Boxer joined in when the game was still growing. YellOw had a really hard time transferring over. Even MVP didn't automatically win when he switched because instead of this inherent rape everyone expects from BW A-teamers, he just practices hard and plays a whole bunch. If the BW pros were to switch to SC2 there is nothing to indicate how well they would do other than their practice and dedication. What people are insinuating right now is that someone like Flash could pick up the game right now with no prior practice and decimate anybody, which is just blind fanboyism.

On October 25 2011 11:12 VoirDire wrote:
For just sc2 it's a dumb configuration. Maybe they want to get "future safe".

Sc2 is single threaded and 32 bit which means 8 GB ram will never ever be used, sc2 won't even use 2 gb ram. In addition, Sc2 doesn't Anti Aliasing or huge textures, so the high end graphics card won't really be used either. What sc2 uses though, is the processor. And since it's single threaded, more than 2 CPU cores won't do anything for sc2 performance.

They should have skipped some of the ram and graphics card and got i7 processors.

On October 25 2011 06:07 SLenDeRlol wrote:
I really hope that they switch over. 500 APM would dominate SC2.

On October 25 2011 11:17 Geovu wrote:

500 BW APM according to Blizzard translates into 40 SC2 APM, 80 if you spam move commands a lot.

-.-

On October 25 2011 11:21 SkimGuy wrote:

We're talking useful APM here. Progamers have ~200 useful/effective APM, very little of which is spam

On October 25 2011 11:12 VoirDire wrote:

They should have skipped some of the ram and graphics card and got i7 processors.

On October 25 2011 11:07 ptrpb wrote:

HuK.
Since when are Bomber and MKP the B-Teamers? Alive, Polt, MC.. these are all big name players that foreigners beat.
At Blizzcon NaNiwa took a game off Nestea, Select took a game off MVP.

On October 25 2011 11:26 Antisocialmunky wrote:
They are upgrading Flash, Flash will become self aware in 2012.

On October 25 2011 11:13 domovoi wrote:

I agree with everything you say. SC2 and BW are very different games, so going from BW to SC2 will require a lot of practice to get a perfect understanding of the metagame. But they both generally require the same set of skills. I believe BW A-teamers generally have a higher level of inherent skill, so if they moved to SC2, they would probably find a lot of success, like MVP has found after enough practice.

My basic point is that the current top SC2 players have less inherent skill than the top BW players, which is a much better explanation for the relative success of foreign SC2 players. One can't conclude anything about the "easiness" of the game.

#20:

No, actually, that's not the case at all. When a game is made easier overall, players do not benefit equally. When a game is made easier overall, players at a lower skill level benefit much more from the change than players at a higher skill level.

Example:

If I were playing Kobe Bryant in horse, shooting jump shots, I would get absolutely destroyed. But let's say we played again, on a basketball hoop with the rim size doubled. Would I still lose? Probably. But I wouldn't lose by as much, because Kobe wouldn't really benefit from the larger rim size, since he could already hit his shots with the smaller rim size. I, on the other hand, would benefit greatly from the larger rim size, since I'm not as good at shooting baskets. So, would this change make shooting hoops easier for everyone? Yes, absolutely. That's not disputed. The relevant question is, who would benefit more from the change? Obviously, I (the lower skilled player) would benefit more, and the game would be much closer.

Example 2:

If I were playing DDR (random example, I know, but it's a sound analogy) on "expert" mode against someone who was really good, and who had already mastered all of the songs at that difficulty, I would get destroyed, because I haven't played that much DDR (although I do have some rhythm :p). But what would happen if we switched the difficulty level down to "medium"? Obviously, the competition would be much closer, even though it would be easier for everyone. This is because a player who's already mastered "expert" mode wouldn't really gain that much from moving down difficultly levels. I, on the other hand, who couldn't handle "expert" mode would benefit immensely from moving down to "medium". Again, I might not necessarily win, but it would be much closer.

These two examples deal with narrowing the skill gap in a given activity by making it easier for everyone. People bring this point up all the time: "Yeah, Source is easier, but it's easier for everyone, so it doesn't matter" - NO. Wrong.

The fact that when a game is easier, it's easier for everyone, is totally irrelevant in the Source/1.6 discourse. The relevant question is, "who benefits from Source being easier?" And obviously, just as a basketball player who couldn't hit as many shots with a smaller hoop would benefit more from a doubled rim diameter than Kobe Bryant would, and a DDR player who couldn't beat "expert" would benefit more from moving down to "medium" than a player would could already beat "expert" would, gamers who can't play at the top level in CS 1.6 benefit more from moving to Source (the easier game of the two; a game with bigger targets, easier guns, relatively slower movement, and stronger flashbangs) than the gamers who already could play at the highest level in 1.6 do.

This is why it's called "narrowing the skill gap", because all of a sudden, there is tight competition, where before, there was no tight competition. Everyone in Counter-Strike culture knows that Source players cannot transition to 1.6, while 1.6 players can transition to Source, and that if a team like Hyper were to play a team like coL in 1.6, it would be an absolute blowout. But in Source, since the skill gap has been narrowed, there's legitimate competition all of a sudden. The teams are at the same level. This is because, when a game is made easier, even though it's easier for everyone, the change serves to level the playing field, because players of a lower skill level benefit more from the change than players of a higher skill level.