On October 23 2011 10:33 LittleAtari wrote: the point of this thread isnt to discuss whether or not there should be female only tournaments. There's a lot of threads on that already. There's a lot more here to discuss, like who's being inviting, on what qualifications, and why wasn't there a qualifier?
Today is the 1st of November and there is only 11 days until ZOWIE DIVINA’s first International Invitation kicks off on the 11th of November. We are very excited about the event, and feel it is time to bring you some detailed information about the thoughts behind it, the location and the sponsors.
About ZOWIE DIVINA: There are many gamers, dominantly males, who don’t understand the need for specific female gaming tournaments, as they think that males and females should be able to compete on equal terms in electronic sports, as there are no physical limitations.
We understand and partially agree to this. The problem is, however, that electronic sports is dominated by males, making it problematic for new coming female gamers to jump the fence and start playing with the boys. It's not in everyones nature to be so bold as to dare take on the best of the best from day 1.
ZOWIE DIVINA was not created in an effort to separate the scenes into male and female gaming – it was created in an effort to unite them – with time – by hopefully increasing the amount of active female competitive gamers. We hope that ZOWIE DIVINA will attract more girls to take up gaming on a more competitive level, as they are able to compete for big prizes against competitors they consider as equals.
Our secret agenda with ZOWIE DIVINA is to get more girls to become active and compete against males when they are practicing for the competition. The mental competitive barrier between “males and females” doesn’t exist in practice, as you seek to play against someone who is “better than you” in practise – in this case, the males.
With time the girls will come to realize that the males they are competing against in practice is not invincible – they can be conquered, as such their confidence will increase with each win and they will eventually want to try and measure their skill against males in larger tournaments – eventually uniting the scenes.
The location: ZOWIE DIVINA will take place in PLU’s studios in Taicang City, China, as we believe it to be the perfect stage for our tournament concept. PLU is mostly known for their tournaments in StarCraft and WarCraft 3, such as their “Premier League” tournaments, which is recognized as the most significant StarCraft tournament in China.
However, more importantly, they are also known for the dedication and hard work they put into other areas of electronic sports, such as improving the circumstances of amateur gamers, allowing them small bits of glory through amateur tournaments, which is broadcasted and streamed live – on almost equal terms as the professional tournaments. PLU is the right partner for the ZOWIE DIVINA concept, because they are working dedicatedly to improve electronic sports on all fronts – whether it is through professional leagues, amateur tournaments, or as now – female gaming tournaments.
Since the beginning of electronic sports, rumors have been a part of the daily activities of the scene. As soon as a player misses a tournament, due to whatever reason, the entire community starts to speculate who the next player in the team will be – even if the player is actually just sick with the flu.
We are driven by rumors. Rumors are what keep us active in the forums, where we socialize with others who share our interest in discussing certain topics. One topic that we really like to discuss is “female gaming”, because truth be told, everyone has an opinion about it.
ZOWIE knows that female gamers are trying very hard to be accepted in the community for their effort and dedication in the games they play, rather than just for “being a girl in a male world”, but as many girls are driven to play with other girls, it is hard for them to be generally accepted for their individual skills.
Those of you who have been following ZOWIE GEAR actively knows that we are not only about developing competitive gear, but that we are also taking an active effort into developing and promoting electronic sports in general.
The time has come to take an effort in establishing female gaming as a serious part of a professional industry. We have developed a tournament concept called “ZOWIE DIVINA” where we will gather the best girls we can find from around the world and bring them to a given location to participate and compete against other girls in StarCraft 2.
The first edition of ZOWIE DIVINA will take place from the 11th to the 13th of November 2011 in Taicang City, China and is co-sponsored by BenQ. We have invited six girls who have proven to take their gaming seriously and shown great dedication to the development of their own talents. These girls will compete against each other for a chance to win the biggest prize purse seen for a female 1on1 tournament ever.
1st prize: 5000 USD + a golden ZOWIE MiCO mouse 2nd prize: 3000 USD 3rd prize: 2000 USD
The girls are attending the tournament as real professionals with all of their expenses taken care of by ZOWIE GEAR, so they are able to focus solely on their individual performances. All matches will be broadcasted live so you can follow the games and see that these girls deserve recognition for their skills.
All girls attending ZOWIE DIVINA will be chosen based on a combination of skill, effort and dedication. It will never be possible to “qualify” for ZOWIE DIVINA through online tournaments, as we believe that in order to measure true skill, the games has to be at LAN – where everyone is equal, and there can be no doubts about the outcome. We have chosen to invest a lot in this concept, as we hope that ZOWIE DIVINA can help to unite a broken community and set new heights for competitive female gaming.
Through ZOWIE DIVINA we want to encourage more female gamers to play hard and be serious – because it’s not just a game! It’s a lifestyle. To show how serious we are, we have designed a special series of competitive gaming products together with our partner BenQ, who shows their support to the growth of female gaming, through their sponsorship of ZOWIE DIVINA.
We will release more information about the girls, the products and the event in the coming days. We hope that you are as excited about the tournament as we are, and that you are already looking forward towards some exciting games.
Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
They have been doing this for years to show that girls are welcome into esports. I think this is great and I wish the females the best of luck.
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
Well as you self say; We need to support woman into gaming and there is no argument to it, we can't get globally accepted with a demographic of 99% males.
I don't enjoy most of the female clans/events being all pinkish and girly. My girlfriend hasn't joined any because, as you say, they're making a big deal about being female.
People need to realize; There is a difference between supporting females in esports/gaming culture, and Making a big deal about females in esports/gaming or spoiling them.
Supporting females is what Day9 does when he mentions that it isn't easy being a woman in esports. Making a big deal and ruining it for other woman is Kellymilkies dressing scandalous and talking shit about the esport scene, that doesn't support woman in any way other than making them into sex object and the "HEY LOOK I AM PRETTY BUT DONT KNOW ABOUT GAMIN"-myth that revolves around every woman ever in esports.
I hope it turns out good ! Do wonder how they'll make sure people are female though as to stop smurfing by pro's.
This prize pool puts this tournament on par with MLG level play. But how will Zowie know that a girl is playing and not some guy with the GSL treatment?
On October 21 2011 16:29 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This prize pool puts this tournament on par with MLG level play. But how will Zowie know that a girl is playing and not some guy with the GSL treatment?
On October 21 2011 16:29 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This prize pool puts this tournament on par with MLG level play. But how will Zowie know that a girl is playing and not some guy with the GSL treatment?
Read
He was making a joke at the GSL doing makeup on the players for the player portfolios.
But this is great news for female gamers. Gets them more active and contributing in the scene, I just hope that this isn't a trend in the future(female/male only tournaments) when SC2 is bigger then what it is now.
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
Well as you self say; We need to support woman into gaming and there is no argument to it, we can't get globally accepted with a demographic of 99% males.
I don't enjoy most of the female clans/events being all pinkish and girly. My girlfriend hasn't joined any because, as you say, they're making a big deal about being female.
People need to realize; There is a difference between supporting females in esports/gaming culture, and Making a big deal about females in esports/gaming or spoiling them.
Supporting females is what Day9 does when he mentions that it isn't easy being a woman in esports. Making a big deal and ruining it for other woman is Kellymilkies dressing scandalous and talking shit about the esport scene, that doesn't support woman in any way other than making them into sex object and the "HEY LOOK I AM PRETTY BUT DONT KNOW ABOUT GAMIN"-myth that revolves around every woman ever in esports.
Certainly, I agree with there being two ways to go about this kind of thing, and as a start this is good for the community as a whole. I just worry that, the longer you isolate female pros from male pros, the more they will separate in terms of skills - especially if you have female-only tournies that pay more than most male tournaments. Where most pros obviously will play at as many tournaments as possible, and always bring their A game, the females might not see that need if you don't create enough of a competitive environment. Sure, at first, this style of tournament will bring in crowds and is good for esports, but it also leads to expectations - that they will be getting equal or larger size tournaments in the future, possibly with the same level of competition. If you change that, you risk losing a lot of the females that are trying to compete but aren't ready to seriously commit to the huge change in competition, but at the same time, there has to be some sort of merge between the two genders for a sport like this. Everyone's worked so hard to keep this funny eSport together, the last thing we need is to make one of the biggest splits possible.
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
Well as you self say; We need to support woman into gaming and there is no argument to it, we can't get globally accepted with a demographic of 99% males.
I don't enjoy most of the female clans/events being all pinkish and girly. My girlfriend hasn't joined any because, as you say, they're making a big deal about being female.
People need to realize; There is a difference between supporting females in esports/gaming culture, and Making a big deal about females in esports/gaming or spoiling them.
Supporting females is what Day9 does when he mentions that it isn't easy being a woman in esports. Making a big deal and ruining it for other woman is Kellymilkies dressing scandalous and talking shit about the esport scene, that doesn't support woman in any way other than making them into sex object and the "HEY LOOK I AM PRETTY BUT DONT KNOW ABOUT GAMIN"-myth that revolves around every woman ever in esports.
Certainly, I agree with there being two ways to go about this kind of thing, and as a start this is good for the community as a whole. I just worry that, the longer you isolate female pros from male pros, the more they will separate in terms of skills - especially if you have female-only tournies that pay more than most male tournaments. Where most pros obviously will play at as many tournaments as possible, and always bring their A game, the females might not see that need if you don't create enough of a competitive environment. Sure, at first, this style of tournament will bring in crowds and is good for esports, but it also leads to expectations - that they will be getting equal or larger size tournaments in the future, possibly with the same level of competition. If you change that, you risk losing a lot of the females that are trying to compete but aren't ready to seriously commit to the huge change in competition, but at the same time, there has to be some sort of merge between the two genders for a sport like this. Everyone's worked so hard to keep this funny eSport together, the last thing we need is to make one of the biggest splits possible.
I agree, but, as with everyone starting out, there is not much for a beginner to learn from fighting a Masters player: That's just not how learning is done. In due time with more female players this will happen automatically but for that to happen we NEED more female gamers to begin with... kind of a hen and egg situation.
In the best of our worlds there would be no need for a tournament like this since the woman would already be participating in all the other tournaments, but that is just not the case.
In the future these tournaments wont be needed (other than to act as commercials for a special event etc) but until then we sadly do.
On October 21 2011 16:29 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: This prize pool puts this tournament on par with MLG level play. But how will Zowie know that a girl is playing and not some guy with the GSL treatment?
Read
He was making a joke at the GSL doing makeup on the players for the player portfolios.
But this is great news for female gamers. Gets them more active and contributing in the scene, I just hope that this isn't a trend in the future(female/male only tournaments) when SC2 is bigger then what it is now.
Yeah, but I'm rather disgusted than aroused at looking at those portfolios.
Female only tournaments have always existed, but there was no "male only" tourneys. Female players are just not up to the "competitive standard" yet, and tournaments like these are supposed to help them
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
Well as you self say; We need to support woman into gaming and there is no argument to it, we can't get globally accepted with a demographic of 99% males.
I don't enjoy most of the female clans/events being all pinkish and girly. My girlfriend hasn't joined any because, as you say, they're making a big deal about being female.
People need to realize; There is a difference between supporting females in esports/gaming culture, and Making a big deal about females in esports/gaming or spoiling them.
Supporting females is what Day9 does when he mentions that it isn't easy being a woman in esports. Making a big deal and ruining it for other woman is Kellymilkies dressing scandalous and talking shit about the esport scene, that doesn't support woman in any way other than making them into sex object and the "HEY LOOK I AM PRETTY BUT DONT KNOW ABOUT GAMIN"-myth that revolves around every woman ever in esports.
Certainly, I agree with there being two ways to go about this kind of thing, and as a start this is good for the community as a whole. I just worry that, the longer you isolate female pros from male pros, the more they will separate in terms of skills - especially if you have female-only tournies that pay more than most male tournaments. Where most pros obviously will play at as many tournaments as possible, and always bring their A game, the females might not see that need if you don't create enough of a competitive environment. Sure, at first, this style of tournament will bring in crowds and is good for esports, but it also leads to expectations - that they will be getting equal or larger size tournaments in the future, possibly with the same level of competition. If you change that, you risk losing a lot of the females that are trying to compete but aren't ready to seriously commit to the huge change in competition, but at the same time, there has to be some sort of merge between the two genders for a sport like this. Everyone's worked so hard to keep this funny eSport together, the last thing we need is to make one of the biggest splits possible.
Thanks for going off topic. Please take the discussion elsewhere, ok? This is not a religion thread -.-
I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
How is it not offensive to you that this difference exists in many, many other sports too? You could argue the same for wrestling or what have you.
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
Considering the pool of talent they have to work from is astronomically lower (1/100th? 1/1000th?), I don't see it as an issue. I could be a little critical of them for making an invitational though..isn't that counter-intuitive if you're trying to get more girls to participate in playing RTS games?
A bit too high for a gender-specific tournament IMO. If it gets to the point where the prize money is significantly notable such that players which cannot enter would desperately want to compete, it kinda sucks...kinda like hosting a $10k BSG. That's a personal rant.
Best of luck with the tournament, money invested in the scene is good no matter where it goes.
How is it not offensive to you that this difference exists in many, many other sports too? You could argue the same for wrestling or what have you.
Your argument is fallacious considering in these sports, women are actually inferior to the males that participate in the same sport. Physically they're just inferior, that's why they often time have different rules or leagues.
Women sports are far less successful than male sports, they either aren't as popular or don't exist as a professional sport all together. That's why they're treated differently. Tennis and Golf would be the main exception to this, however the rules are not the same (handicap) in these sports as their male counterparts. Basketball and soccer they have made attempts but no one really cares for them as sports, and they are financially unstable at best.
Might I add, they also tried to do this in cs 1.6 and was utter failure. The female players were terrible at the game and it was completely unwatchable. Trying to market an inferior product is only viable if you market them as girls first and as players second. This is what I think is insulting personally.
So wait. To integrate female into e-sports, the solution is to treat them special with "NO BOYS ALLOWED" and only play with only other females that are on the same lack of level? Seems to be to the completely opposite.
Like integrating immigrants to isolated areas living with only other immigrants. Lol.
I will only support this if it's followed up by a bikini contest or mud wrestling right afterwards. You know, other female sports.
On October 21 2011 18:47 chokke wrote: I will only support this if it's followed up by a bikini contest or mud wrestling right afterwards. You know, other female sports.
On October 21 2011 18:24 TheBomb wrote: What If I pretend to be female and use my GF pics and stuff and win this tournament?
This is offline, so it's hard to pretend.
But not impossible!
I'd change genders to be a golden mouse winner.
Unless they have somebody lifting skirts and grabbing balls (like they do it in the Vatican to verify if the Pope is male, no kidding, they do that shit) its quite possible, specially for that amount of money.
Hopefully this will be the start of a good thing. For all the talk about strategies to get more girls into the professional scene, you can't argue with cold hard cash as a strong motivator. I'm looking forward to this, I assume most of the invites will be Chinese players though.
On October 21 2011 19:52 Slithice wrote: Every major sports has a women association/division, I see no reason why there shouldn't be one in starcraft 2.
Great news!!
Because there is a genetically difference between male and female physics. So unless they admit they are genetically inferior for playing Starcraft 2 at the highest level due to having a vagina, I got a minor issue with this.
I really don't like these types of tournaments and I think it's the wrong way to approach the issue. Women can play video games just as well as men and do not need special treatment, what we need is imo a level playing field and an attitude adjustment in the community, not for us to segment the community by gender.
With that said, gl hf, hope it works out. Zowie are free to spend their money as they please.
As much as i can see why some people are saying it's not needed because females can freely participate in all SC2 tourneys, seriously, how many have You seen? How often You see one of female players getting invite to any tournament or even being mentioned as competitor? Not much of that.
Events like this may actually contribute into bringing more female players into spotlight and thus making it more possible that eventually they will show up on other open tournaments, which will help eSports in the end.
Good luck with he tournament and hope it will be great!.
Wait.. it's a 10k tournament for Females but it's an invitational? What the fuck? How can there be any justified metric to send out invites. I'm pretty sure this is far far larger than anything before so you can't use minor tournaments to judge when a lot of players may potentially step their game up for the chance at this.
On October 21 2011 20:32 Papulatus wrote: Cool a sexist tournament.
What if a current tournament came along and said that only males are allowed?
I don't get the clear hypocrisy in modern society....
It's called "supporting the minority".
Males are the majority, no special tournaments needed as they are almost all male-only anyways. Do you want all tournaments to stay that way or wouldn't you like to see some TossGirl mixing it up from time to time? That will only happen if we get enough women into SC2 so a big enough pool exists for some good enough female pros to spawn from it. That won't happen if we treat them poorly.
Until there is a big pool of female players, they do need their own tournaments.
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
I don't want or intend to sound sexist (which is why I'm skipping the rly easy joke here), but just as physical power is generally stronger in males, so is logical thinking.
On October 21 2011 20:32 Papulatus wrote: Cool a sexist tournament.
What if a current tournament came along and said that only males are allowed?
I don't get the clear hypocrisy in modern society....
It's called "supporting the minority".
Males are the majority, no special tournaments needed as they are almost all male-only anyways. Do you want all tournaments to stay that way or wouldn't you like to see some TossGirl mixing it up from time to time? That will only happen if we get enough women into SC2 so a big enough pool exists for some good enough female pros to spawn from it. That won't happen if we treat them poorly.
Until there is a big pool of female players, they do need their own tournaments.
Why do "we" have to force a large pool of females. Its cold fact that this tournament is sexist, and I find that repulsive.
I would like to see TossGirl mix it up from time to time. Did I say anywhere that I'm against women competing with men? I really want to see that, but I don't see why aspiring females should get special treatment over males.
If females want to compete with males, they need to put in the time and dedication like any other up-and-coming male has to. They then need to entire a tournament and get deep into it like any other male has too.
On October 21 2011 20:32 Papulatus wrote: Cool a sexist tournament.
What if a current tournament came along and said that only males are allowed?
I don't get the clear hypocrisy in modern society....
It's called "supporting the minority".
Males are the majority, no special tournaments needed as they are almost all male-only anyways. Do you want all tournaments to stay that way or wouldn't you like to see some TossGirl mixing it up from time to time? That will only happen if we get enough women into SC2 so a big enough pool exists for some good enough female pros to spawn from it. That won't happen if we treat them poorly.
Until there is a big pool of female players, they do need their own tournaments.
I would like to see TossGirl mix it up from time to time. Did I say anywhere that I'm against women competing with men? I really want to see that, but I don't see why aspiring females should get special treatment over males.
If females want to compete with males, they need to put in the time and dedication like any other up-and-coming male has to. They then need to entire a tournament and get deep into it like any other male has too.
I don't support clear sexism and hypocrisy.
This tournament is meant to both give a nice environment for girls to compete (which can not be said about most offline tournament where the sole fact of being a girl makes you the target of much unwanted attention and judgment) and some exposure for the female scene (especially to other girls who might be interested in getting more serious about the game).
If those goals are met, and more and more girls start playing the game seriously, they will eventually start competing in normal tournaments because that's were the money and the "prestige" are.
I really like the initiative, especially the fact that they apparently bring the players to the tournament which means the only requirement is to be among the best (and being a girl of course .
Can I get a filter on ladder now where I can only run into males/females? Since we are separating the community already, it would be nice to implement this to the ladder to. Thank you
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
Well in sc2, men are practicing more, so naturally at the moment we are better. If you read the op it says the goal is to bring more women into esports gaming through a big prize pool.
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
Well in sc2, men are practicing more, so naturally at the moment we are better. If you read the op it says the goal is to bring more women into esports gaming through a big prize pool.
what stops females from practising more? so they can practice 2 hours a day get to masters, and have tournaments with 10k$ prize pools? lol
My only hope is that some large teams are watching this tournament and decide to sign some female players, with the only notable player being slayers-eve i think the tournament is a great way for these players to get their name out.GL to all those participating
While this is most definitely sexist I still think it's a great idea. People do what they are expected to do - girls see girls do girly things, they do girly things, boys see boys do boyish things, they do boyish things. Sexist actions such as creating this tournament might help eliminate the unconscious sexism of society.
I support this because I HATE the fact that I hardly ever meet girls that share my interests.
I hope they're hot. Does zowie plan on having a player camera like ipl? Why is this in china, and please invite tossgirl and slayerseve or I won't watch.
On October 21 2011 22:38 nooboon wrote: My only hope is that some large teams are watching this tournament and decide to sign some female players, with the only notable player being slayers-eve i think the tournament is a great way for these players to get their name out.GL to all those participating
There are some other good female players, for example megumixbear is quite good and while she didn't get far at MLG, she does 3v3s with Day9 which makes her an insta-favourite :p
However, i agree, it would be nice to see pro teams hire female players to increase the chance on finding and training the next TossGirl (though i hope it'll be a ZergGirl). It would be a huge PR boost to have the best female player on the team and it might be a huge boost to ESports growth if women could have someone on stage to identify with, which might increase female viewership.
And for those who don't see the point in that, you can still see it this way: More women playing SC2 = higher chance your SC2 skills get you laid = good
Of course it would be better if the people who see it that way would actually listen to reason, but well... if nothing else helps, the "you might get laid" argument should work.
On October 21 2011 21:58 chokke wrote: Can I get a filter on ladder now where I can only run into males/females? Since we are separating the community already, it would be nice to implement this to the ladder to. Thank you
But anyways, looks like a cool tournament, hoping to see interviews with the players. I'd also love to see the whether or not the winner of this gets to a major team.
I wish the girls the best of luck. I wonder also how they find their girls. Oh well I guess we'll see. Great opportunity for the chosen ones <3 + Show Spoiler +
On October 21 2011 23:18 Zidane wrote: Why is there always 1 or 2 token idiots just having to add their 2 cents about how it isn't helping females by having private tournaments?
On the internet, there's always the one asshole that hates everything.
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
There's nothing stopping a female curling team from beating a male one either but they still hold competitions separately.
If some sort of female representative or major SC2 representative comes out and says that females are inferior to males in the game of starcrat2, then i will fully support the idea of having special treatment for females (ie, what they did with Eve, female only tournaments, female league, etc. etc.). Otherwise, i consider this sexist and insulting to females everywhere.
On October 22 2011 00:55 darklight54321 wrote: I'm gonna state the obligatory
If some sort of female representative or major SC2 representative comes out and says that females are inferior to males in the game of starcrat2, then i will fully support the idea of having special treatment for females (ie, what they did with Eve, female only tournaments, female league, etc. etc.). Otherwise, i consider this sexist and insulting to females everywhere.
The only way you'd consider a situation to not be sexist is if it makes a blanket statement that one sex is inferior?
I'm not sure you understand what sexism is...
The point isn't that guys aren't allowed to participate, it's that a LOT of the female community feels unable to play online or go to tournaments with the same type of freedom or credibility as male players.
Don't you think that female players who win or do well in a tournament like this will only be MORE likely to compete in events like MLG in the future?
Seems like a great initiative. Though I'd rather have seen it being online qualifiers, because the female scene is so undiscovered (ie I don't think anyone really know who are actually the best female gamers).
On October 22 2011 00:55 darklight54321 wrote: I'm gonna state the obligatory
If some sort of female representative or major SC2 representative comes out and says that females are inferior to males in the game of starcrat2, then i will fully support the idea of having special treatment for females (ie, what they did with Eve, female only tournaments, female league, etc. etc.). Otherwise, i consider this sexist and insulting to females everywhere.
The only way you'd consider a situation to not be sexist is if it makes a blanket statement that one sex is inferior?
I'm not sure you understand what sexism is...
The point isn't that guys aren't allowed to participate, it's that a LOT of the female community feels unable to play online or go to tournaments with the same type of freedom or credibility as male players.
Don't you think that female players who win or do well in a tournament like this will only be MORE likely to compete in events like MLG in the future?
Actually he understands very well what sexism is. Right now ALL serious tournaments are gender independent. This one is for one certain gender only. And thats sexism. It wouldnt be sexism if females were genetically worse in sc2 than males. Than it would be sexism to have them participate in the same tournaments.
I mean, look at sports, its the exact same thing. Would it be fair to have women and men together in a 100m run? Hell, no! The women dont stand a chance. Thats why you have gender specific tournaments. Actually it would be sexism if they were forced to run with the males.
But in sc2 there is no reason to expect women from being naturally worse. So gender specific tournaments indeed is sexism.
Dont get me wrong though. If you want more women in esports in generall this kind of tournaments WILL help. There is also a higher chance that we will see women in "all gender" tournaments like mlg. But its still sexism....
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
There's nothing stopping a female curling team from beating a male one either but they still hold competitions separately.
Which is stupid, in my opinion. If they're not disadvantaged, why split it up?
If they are so good why don't they ever show up at real tournaments? It's not like a contact sport where guys are simply bigger (most of the time). The only thing holding them back is themselves and their skill level, not some imaginary gender barrier.
This is a cool idea I guess, but if anything it drives home a point that isn't there: girls can't compete [at SC2] with boys.
"ZOWIE knows that female gamers are trying very hard to be accepted in the community for their effort and dedication in the games they play, rather than just for “being a girl in a male world”, but as many girls are driven to play with other girls, it is hard for them to be generally accepted for their individual skills."
It's very fucking easy for girls to get accepted in this community, be genuinely good at the game funnily enough that's the same criteria we expect from male gamers too. Every time a girl streams or posts its started with "I'm a female on the NA server" or "watch this girl own up the ladder". If a female wants to prove her skills at the game(or determination/commitment), perhaps try the approach of letting your skill spread around the internet, rather than shots from a magazine. Unfortunate that you have now gone down the road of separating girls, and 'admitting' that they can't compete with males.
A pink mouse won't repair a "fractured community", not treating females like retards who need a kiddy pool not to drown, that will fix things.
Unfortunately im afraid this post will be seen as misguided "hate" towards women, by the whiteknights of the community. In fact it's just sheer shame at the way the white knights insist on treating women as children who need special rules in an environment in which we should all be equal. such a shame
Really lucky break for a couple of females I guess! Using the 'controversy' to ensure viewers is a nice move by the PR guys behind this too! Push the wedge in deeper to split us all up, whilst pretending to be soothing the problem. Smart!
I'm all for supporting women in e-sports, but doing something like this isn't exactly what I imagined. I understand that females aren't doing as well as males, but that's not because they're inferior. It's been proven multiple times that girls can play Starcraft just as well as guys. Forcing segregation in the community by actually separating the tournaments, while being a nice gesture, only strengthens the untrue message that they can't compete.
A better course of action would be, in my opinion, not to host tournaments with larger prize pools only for girls (regardless of who it is, hosting larger tournaments with restrictions such as gender just feel like "because you can't do otherwise" acts), but to form support groups, advertise programs specifically geared towards training interested females, etc.
I'm not saying we shouldn't hold girl-only tournaments, but hosting a tournament like this and saying it's solely for promoting women in e-sports rather than just a fun event bugs me. We need to look for things that will help all demographics without dividing the community.
Why cant people just enjoy this for what it is without having to delve deeper into it. There are tons of bronze/silver/gold/plat tourneys all the time, and no one rages in those threads saying its not fair to the high rank players that bad players can have money tournaments. What makes this any different?
On October 22 2011 11:14 Zeke50100 wrote: I'm all for supporting women in e-sports, but doing something like this isn't exactly what I imagined. I understand that females aren't doing as well as males, but that's not because they're inferior. It's been proven multiple times that girls can play Starcraft just as well as guys. Forcing segregation in the community by actually separating the tournaments, while being a nice gesture, only strengthens the untrue message that they can't compete.
A better course of action would be, in my opinion, not to host tournaments with larger prize pools only for girls (regardless of who it is, hosting larger tournaments with restrictions such as gender just feel like "because you can't do otherwise" acts), but to form support groups, advertise programs specifically geared towards training interested females, etc.
I'm not saying we shouldn't hold girl-only tournaments, but hosting a tournament like this and saying it's solely for promoting women in e-sports rather than just a fun event bugs me. We need to look for things that will help all demographics without dividing the community.
Better watch out.... according to some people you're just an internet guy that likes to hate on things......
On October 22 2011 11:25 eXigent. wrote: Why cant people just enjoy this for what it is without having to delve deeper into it. There are tons of bronze/silver/gold/plat tourneys all the time, and no one rages in those threads saying its not fair to the high rank players that bad players can have money tournaments. What makes this any different?
None of those are pro tourneys with a 5k prize and golden mouse? I don't care that much about this sort of thing (anymore) just stating why people do.
On October 22 2011 11:25 eXigent. wrote: Why cant people just enjoy this for what it is without having to delve deeper into it. There are tons of bronze/silver/gold/plat tourneys all the time, and no one rages in those threads saying its not fair to the high rank players that bad players can have money tournaments. What makes this any different?
There's an actual difference between different leagues of skill rather than the superficial one related to gender.
A better comparison would be tournaments that ban Koreans, which doesn't happen often simply because we know there's no difference. If you ask people, they'll acknowledge that the only difference is the amount of time put in, etc. (although with the way things are going around here, though, I wouldn't be surprised if the stigma about Koreans has evolved into thinking there's an actual genetic difference, which is incredibly saddening).
Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
I wholeheartedly agree with Shel, especially the last paragraph.. this is just really sad.
It is a publicity parade in the guise of support, whilst there are worse things in the world right now, its that sort of systematic abuse of a situation that I find particularly disgusting and offensive. I'm really glad others are seeing through this.
Some form of web-based show that involved a couple of these female gamers, being given the opportunity to prove that infrastructure > Gender would have been much more appropriate, still completely unnecessary as we all know this already. Korean infrastructure > ours, they know how to play this game and they know how to practice it. Implying anything else is simply racist.
Teams that work on providing infrastructure (like PMS) are doing a really good thing. PR stunts like this tournament take a shit over all that good work and intention
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
pretty cool. $10k prize pool is unexpected, however, hopefully that will bring diversity to the gaming community. moreover, i wonder the skill level of the best female gamers, i've heard there was a gm female on either eu, us, or kr forgot which one, i'm interested nonetheless.
now on a side note, as terrible as this sounds, i look forward to seeing people get warned,temp banned, and perma banned because people post the stupidest shit, yet sometimes its a little funny.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
please avoid the nonsense of supporting girls in esports blah blah blah. Why don't you support people based on skill first, and discriminate based on gender later? I have no problem with pouring money into female esports because people in charge think that's where the advertising opportunities lie - that's only fair. But please don't pretend like it's some kind of a noble cause.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
aurora was a chick? I only saw the game footage. nice play but just a bit lacking before really competing at pro level. SHES the type of player SLayers should have picked up, not eve. (the picking out of eve is always my issue with that, not the idea behind it, well that too).
And @ Shell
Thanks for providing legitimate reason why this tourney is a fail (invite) and being the best person to respond (with two girls in your clan). What i'd really like to hear is THEIR opinions on this matter though if you can get them to post, or even make their own topic.
Small community events and things aimed at encouraging female participation are fine, but when you are throwing a tournament with a prize pool that rivals MLGs then it is plain wrong to exclude someone from that based on their gender. It should go to the most skilled player. This tournament being invite only just makes it even worse.
Unlike in sports there is no physical reason why women would be unable to compete with men. A sufficiently motivated woman has just as much chance of being good at this game as a man does.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
You people do realize female and males brains operate distinctly different from each other right? For instance, more women use landmarks to navigate where men usually think of maps, directions, and street names. Women socialize differently then men. Sure, its easy to see differences in physicality but everyone is dodging the fact our brains are just different, and its very obvious. Do a little research, they've done plenty of studies on why men are more prone to play and be better at video games. Of course there will be outliers, but time has proven that women simply are not as interested in competitive games as much as men are.
Its nice to see the rare women who do dedicate themselves to starcraft, but it shouldn't be a drama fest when someone decides to hold a female only tournament. Being sexist isn't necessarily wrong or evil here. There are plenty of tourneys for men.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?''
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
On October 22 2011 14:13 decemberscalm wrote: You people do realize female and males brains operate distinctly different from each other right? For instance, more women use landmarks to navigate where men usually think of maps, directions, and street names. Women socialize differently then men. Sure, its easy to see differences in physicality but everyone is dodging the fact our brains are just different, and its very obvious. Do a little research, they've done plenty of studies on why men are more prone to play and be better at video games. Of course there will be outliers, but time has proven that women simply are not as interested in competitive games as much as men are.
Its nice to see the rare women who do dedicate themselves to starcraft, but it shouldn't be a drama fest when someone decides to hold a female only tournament. Being sexist isn't necessarily wrong or evil here. There are plenty of tourneys for men.
I thought men use Landmarks more o.O; I know I use landmarks more than streets.
This is the issue with female gaming community and the
accepted in the community for their effort and dedication in the games they play, rather than just for “being a girl in a male world”
If you want to be accepted as equals, get the girls together, let them train and practice, and then have them compete with everyone else. If all players, male and female are put together, then its equality. Otherwise its women wanted the benefits of men, but still wanting to be treated like women.
I'm all for women wanting to be considered equals in games, just prove it by competing with the best of the best.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?'
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
Just ignore the guys like this :/, Having known a lot of gamer girls, they have a hard time online after guys realize they are actually girls quite often. Most guys treat guys differently, the moment you tell them they are a girl, the attitude changes towards you, they try to hook up with them, if rejected, then you are a shitty player and they call all your mistakes and count none of their own. I see bronze guys make fun of masters females saying they suck, yet they don't realize they are worse than the girls all the time.
Here is some food for thought for you guys.
If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, people are like "Cool, good for him that he is getting some modeling." if a Girl does it, it's "She's using her sex to get looks." Many guys fail to see the difference, because they were raised as "My daughter shouldn't have sex." while "Word, my son just got laid." Type of mind set. I was more raised by my sisters and my mother so I don't see this as much.
What other people don't realize is, in business men will team up to destroy women first before they deal with each other, while women often don't team up with other women and try to fight everyone. The world is much more brutal for these female gamers. No matter what they do they are treated very different from guys.
TL:DR
A girl does something, she's bad. A guy does something, it's cool.
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good.
You already have a chance to prove yourself, the same as everyone else. I don't mind that they have female only tournaments but I personally would rather see those who dedicated their time to becoming the best being rewarded with money.
That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right? A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain "I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two.
On October 22 2011 14:13 decemberscalm wrote: You people do realize female and males brains operate distinctly different from each other right? For instance, more women use landmarks to navigate where men usually think of maps, directions, and street names. Women socialize differently then men. Sure, its easy to see differences in physicality but everyone is dodging the fact our brains are just different, and its very obvious. Do a little research, they've done plenty of studies on why men are more prone to play and be better at video games. Of course there will be outliers, but time has proven that women simply are not as interested in competitive games as much as men are.
Its nice to see the rare women who do dedicate themselves to starcraft, but it shouldn't be a drama fest when someone decides to hold a female only tournament. Being sexist isn't necessarily wrong or evil here. There are plenty of tourneys for men.
I thought men use Landmarks more o.O; I know I use landmarks more than streets.
There is a good basis that men are innately more competitive and better at virtual navigation. However, remember that despite these differences its only speculative if it makes a huge difference or not.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?'
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
Just ignore the guys like this :/, Having known a lot of gamer girls, they have a hard time online after guys realize they are actually girls quite often. Most guys treat guys differently, the moment you tell them they are a girl, the attitude changes towards you, they try to hook up with them, if rejected, then you are a shitty player and they call all your mistakes and count none of their own. I see bronze guys make fun of masters females saying they suck, yet they don't realize they are worse than the girls all the time.
Here is some food for thought for you guys.
If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, people are like "Cool, good for him that he is getting some modeling." if a Girl does it, it's "She's using her sex to get looks." Many guys fail to see the difference, because they were raised as "My daughter shouldn't have sex." while "Word, my son just got laid." Type of mind set. I was more raised by my sisters and my mother so I don't see this as much.
What other people don't realize is, in business men will team up to destroy women first before they deal with each other, while women often don't team up with other women and try to fight everyone. The world is much more brutal for these female gamers. No matter what they do they are treated very different from guys.
TL:DR
A girl does something, she's bad. A guy does something, it's cool.
Just felt like pointing out some logical inconsistancies here. Firstly, not all guys try to hook up with gamer girls upon realizing they are female.That is a sweeping generalization, and even the ones that do are usually idiots. Second, people make fun of more skilled players all the time, this is a product of general immaturity (EX: "Oh, Goody sucks with his 60apm" has been thrown around often by bronze leaguers.)
Third: If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, he is NOT doing it to get fans. Nada has proven that he is a champion, repeatedly, and will have his reasons for taking off his shirt. If a girl does it and posts the pictures online, that is how she is selling herself (not as a gamer, but as a girl gamer). Nada doesn't need to take off his shirt to have fans.
The business part is irrelevant and off-topic. (and are you shitting me? Groups of girls will absolutely wreck other girls psychologically for no good reason) The ONLY thing that could possibly make the world "brutal" for female gamers would be that they don't have any friends playing, but hey, I only have 1 starcraft friend and I don't consider it brutal.
But hey, good for the girls in this tourney. While I wish it were an open tourney, I wish them the best of luck! And I hope they don't victimize themselves as much as you do for them, because with that attitude you can't be a winner.
If I was a women I would find this kind of degrading. I dont know maybe I cant say because I`m not a woman, but It just feels like its saying that women physically cant compete which they arent but i beleive they can.
Edit* In regular sports it makes sense to me to have separate leagues, because men are biologically more strong. But since starcraft is all in the mind doesn't make men and women on equal footing?
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?'
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
Just ignore the guys like this :/, Having known a lot of gamer girls, they have a hard time online after guys realize they are actually girls quite often. Most guys treat guys differently, the moment you tell them they are a girl, the attitude changes towards you, they try to hook up with them, if rejected, then you are a shitty player and they call all your mistakes and count none of their own. I see bronze guys make fun of masters females saying they suck, yet they don't realize they are worse than the girls all the time.
Here is some food for thought for you guys.
If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, people are like "Cool, good for him that he is getting some modeling." if a Girl does it, it's "She's using her sex to get looks." Many guys fail to see the difference, because they were raised as "My daughter shouldn't have sex." while "Word, my son just got laid." Type of mind set. I was more raised by my sisters and my mother so I don't see this as much.
What other people don't realize is, in business men will team up to destroy women first before they deal with each other, while women often don't team up with other women and try to fight everyone. The world is much more brutal for these female gamers. No matter what they do they are treated very different from guys.
TL:DR
A girl does something, she's bad. A guy does something, it's cool.
Just felt like pointing out some logical inconsistancies here. Firstly, not all guys try to hook up with gamer girls upon realizing they are female.That is a sweeping generalization, and even the ones that do are usually idiots. Second, people make fun of more skilled players all the time, this is a product of general immaturity (EX: "Oh, Goody sucks with his 60apm" has been thrown around often by bronze leaguers.)
Third: If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, he is NOT doing it to get fans. Nada has proven that he is a champion, repeatedly, and will have his reasons for taking off his shirt. If a girl does it and posts the pictures online, that is how she is selling herself (not as a gamer, but as a girl gamer). Nada doesn't need to take off his shirt to have fans.
The business part is irrelevant and off-topic. (and are you shitting me? Groups of girls will absolutely wreck other girls psychologically for no good reason) The ONLY thing that could possibly make the world "brutal" for female gamers would be that they don't have any friends playing, but hey, I only have 1 starcraft friend and I don't consider it brutal.
But hey, good for the girls in this tourney. While I wish it were an open tourney, I wish them the best of luck! And I hope they don't victimize themselves as much as you do for them, because with that attitude you can't be a winner.
I find it silly that you are saying there are inconsistencies, when you yourself are showing exactly what I am talking about.
It's her personality and she will get judged much more harshly for doing it. You yourself did it in the nada example the exact thing I said "Because he is a proven champion." It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. If you call one a whore for doing it, then call nada a whore too. I prefer to call both just being themselves and doing whatever they want.
Also, girls enter open tournaments, just not many. But more and more will enter them because of events like this.
It's a good start. What I don't get is, this doesn't hurt anyone and it helps to grow esports in another demographic but so many guys complain "It should be an open tournament." There are so many already, stop caring about that, 10k is a drop in the bucket compared to how much open tournaments have given out already.
I wish you the best of luck and I really hope you see that you are possibly one of those guys who is "Tina, you have to be home by 7, son you can be home whenever." Types without possibly realizing it.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?'
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
Just ignore the guys like this :/, Having known a lot of gamer girls, they have a hard time online after guys realize they are actually girls quite often. Most guys treat guys differently, the moment you tell them they are a girl, the attitude changes towards you, they try to hook up with them, if rejected, then you are a shitty player and they call all your mistakes and count none of their own. I see bronze guys make fun of masters females saying they suck, yet they don't realize they are worse than the girls all the time.
Here is some food for thought for you guys.
If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, people are like "Cool, good for him that he is getting some modeling." if a Girl does it, it's "She's using her sex to get looks." Many guys fail to see the difference, because they were raised as "My daughter shouldn't have sex." while "Word, my son just got laid." Type of mind set. I was more raised by my sisters and my mother so I don't see this as much.
What other people don't realize is, in business men will team up to destroy women first before they deal with each other, while women often don't team up with other women and try to fight everyone. The world is much more brutal for these female gamers. No matter what they do they are treated very different from guys.
TL:DR
A girl does something, she's bad. A guy does something, it's cool.
Just felt like pointing out some logical inconsistancies here. Firstly, not all guys try to hook up with gamer girls upon realizing they are female.That is a sweeping generalization, and even the ones that do are usually idiots. Second, people make fun of more skilled players all the time, this is a product of general immaturity (EX: "Oh, Goody sucks with his 60apm" has been thrown around often by bronze leaguers.)
Third: If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, he is NOT doing it to get fans. Nada has proven that he is a champion, repeatedly, and will have his reasons for taking off his shirt. If a girl does it and posts the pictures online, that is how she is selling herself (not as a gamer, but as a girl gamer). Nada doesn't need to take off his shirt to have fans.
The business part is irrelevant and off-topic. (and are you shitting me? Groups of girls will absolutely wreck other girls psychologically for no good reason) The ONLY thing that could possibly make the world "brutal" for female gamers would be that they don't have any friends playing, but hey, I only have 1 starcraft friend and I don't consider it brutal.
But hey, good for the girls in this tourney. While I wish it were an open tourney, I wish them the best of luck! And I hope they don't victimize themselves as much as you do for them, because with that attitude you can't be a winner.
I find it silly that you are saying there are inconsistencies, when you yourself are showing exactly what I am talking about.
It's her personality and she will get judged much more harshly for doing it. You yourself did it in the nada example the exact thing I said "Because he is a proven champion." It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. If you call one a whore for doing it, then call nada a whore too. I prefer to call both just being themselves and doing whatever they want.
Also, girls enter open tournaments, just not many. But more and more will enter them because of events like this.
It's a good start. What I don't get is, this doesn't hurt anyone and it helps to grow esports in another demographic but so many guys complain "It should be an open tournament." There are so many already, stop caring about that, 10k is a drop in the bucket compared to how much open tournaments have given out already.
I wish you the best of luck and I really hope you see that you are possibly one of those guys who is "Tina, you have to be home by 7, son you can be home whenever." Types without possibly realizing it.
The obvious discrepancy that you are ignoring is that famous girls in this community so far have an unfortunate track record of using their bodies to get fans and get some (usually short lived) e-fame, whereas a proven champion used their dedication and skill to get recognition.
I hope you were ignoring the discrepancy in a vain attempt to make your viewpoint seem stronger, the alternative would be unfortunate!
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
On October 22 2011 15:16 gogatorsfoster wrote: If I was a women I would find this kind of degrading. I dont know maybe I cant say because I`m not a woman, but It just feels like its saying that women physically cant compete which they arent but i beleive they can.
Edit* In regular sports it makes sense to me to have separate leagues, because men are biologically more strong. But since starcraft is all in the mind doesn't make men and women on equal footing?
I find it quite amusing since you are posting on a website that has hosted two of the biggest non-Korean SC tournament. I personally believe non-Koreans physically compete with Koreans *rolls eyes*, now you see that's not the issue at all. A certain group has gotten better at a discipline than another, whether it is because the other group had a head start, had a better learning methods or had more interest in that disciple. It is quite alright to have a female only tournament, like there were non-Korean only tournaments and like there are American only Soccer tournaments, or Asian games. It's not about "equal" in terms of race and gender, men are ahead for a reason, most likely interest in the game, this is not degrading in anyway. That's like saying American Soccer tournaments are degrading or TSL1 and TSL2 were degrading.
On October 22 2011 15:16 gogatorsfoster wrote: If I was a women I would find this kind of degrading. I dont know maybe I cant say because I`m not a woman, but It just feels like its saying that women physically cant compete which they arent but i beleive they can.
Edit* In regular sports it makes sense to me to have separate leagues, because men are biologically more strong. But since starcraft is all in the mind doesn't make men and women on equal footing?
I find it quite amusing since you are posting on a website that has hosted two of the biggest non-Korean SC tournament. I personally believe non-Koreans physically compete with Koreans *rolls eyes*, now you see that's not the issue at all. A certain group has gotten better at a discipline than another, whether it is because the other group had a head start, had a better learning methods or had more interest in that disciple. It is quite alright to have a female only tournament, like there were non-Korean only tournaments and like there are American only Soccer tournaments, or Asian games. It's not about "equal" in terms of race and gender, men are ahead for a reason, most likely interest in the game, this is not degrading in anyway. That's like saying American Soccer tournaments are degrading or TSL1 and TSL2 were degrading.
Rather than argue in the thread, I'll agree with this guy. He put it into better words than me.
I don't see it hurting ESports, only helping. People should try to force themselves to accept that there can be more than one kind of tournament.
If dudes keep on claiming BS like it was being equal opportunity for girls to participate in big standard tournaments, which it is not if you take the time to look at the actual circumstances, sc2 will keep on being an everlasting sausage party.
Sexism is not about what is theoretically imaginable but about the actual, practical situation and what steps are taken to influence certain trends. Just having a tournaments ruleset not excluding women for example doesnt mean it is generally as easy for a girl to compete there.
Its great to see that Zowie doesnt mind any sexist haters (including those who come up with some flawed simpleton logic to claim theyre not sexist or even better that the tournament was sexist) and takes an active step for a more diverse competitive scene.
Having female tournaments with high prize pools will give girl gamers a reason to play competitive which they otherwise do not have at the moment. Thumbs up.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?''
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
They shouldn't separate guys and girls, everyone should play together... mabye do a few tournaments to get some girls into sc2, but after that... Don't make gender a requirment of playing in a tournament.
On October 22 2011 21:39 xi Tempest x wrote: They shouldn't separate guys and girls, everyone should play together... mabye do a few tournaments to get some girls into sc2, but after that... Don't make gender a requirment of playing in a tournament.
yes but no tourney would have girls then because they arent as good?
On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote: That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right? A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain "I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking.
Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking.
Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking.
Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill.
In my opinion, if they want to legitimize girl gamers and push for more widespread "acceptance" of them in the community, they should throw out these kind of cliché's like having a big over the top pink girly logo. I think events like this only serve to isolate female gamers more and make them feel marginalized.
On the other hand I also sympathize with them because looks are such a big deal for women in this community. A female equivalent of many of our current male progamers looks-wise would have been bullied out of the scene long ago, which is really unfair.
On October 22 2011 21:39 xi Tempest x wrote: They shouldn't separate guys and girls, everyone should play together... mabye do a few tournaments to get some girls into sc2, but after that... Don't make gender a requirment of playing in a tournament.
yes but no tourney would have girls then because they arent as good?
I disagree with that, SlayersEve, tossgirl, and cadenza have had pretty good results against decent players (whitera, super)
Hmm.. now that we have a tourney with a big cash prize for girls, can we have such a thing for other minorities, too?
I have to dedicate a lot of my time doing my PhD in biochemistry, so I cannot train the required amount to compete in high level tourneys. It also means that I could REALLY use the extra cash. Please do a post doc tourney, where the cash prize pool is 10k and you have present your PhD certificate before you can play.
Well, it's a sad day for female gamers. I believe those 10k US$ would help the female gaming population more, if it sponsored a female gaming clan or went towards a female gaming house.
Oh.. and a question I was pondering in the last 'girl only event' thread.. maybe someone could answer it here..
"I just wonder (without any kind of hate - and it's sad that I have to even type this): Are transgender girls (so the boy->girl kind) allowed to enter female only cups? I know, that such a person is banned from most competitive female only competitions - usually the athletic kind. To my knowledge, there is even a rudimentary test to spot women with an XY genotype even though they were never men, just because they unique hormonal situation gives them an edge over XX women."
Excellent! The female community has a massive amount of untapped talent, certainly enough to compete with the males. I look foward, not only to the great games, but also how the best of the best can measure up to the male pros.
On October 22 2011 21:39 xi Tempest x wrote: They shouldn't separate guys and girls, everyone should play together... mabye do a few tournaments to get some girls into sc2, but after that... Don't make gender a requirment of playing in a tournament.
yes but no tourney would have girls then because they arent as good?
They aren't as good because they don't practice/become really good for whatever reason. Not because they are girls, but because they don't practice. If we have female only tournaments we should have male only tournaments. Most tourneys are already male only because there are no good females, but we allow them to apply and play. Its just they aren't good enough.
As usual with female only tournaments, this is way unfair, but the thing that saddens me is that even in esports, males will always have the upper hand on females, no matter what.
On October 23 2011 00:08 Thrombozyt wrote: Hmm.. now that we have a tourney with a big cash prize for girls, can we have such a thing for other minorities, too?
I have to dedicate a lot of my time doing my PhD in biochemistry, so I cannot train the required amount to compete in high level tourneys. It also means that I could REALLY use the extra cash. Please do a post doc tourney, where the cash prize pool is 10k and you have present your PhD certificate before you can play.
Well, it's a sad day for female gamers. I believe those 10k US$ would help the female gaming population more, if it sponsored a female gaming clan or went towards a female gaming house.
Lol, why such sarcasm? There's nothing wrong with big cash for lower level tournaments. The After Hours Gaming League was full of lower skilled players, who probably just didn't have time to train the required amount to compete in high level tourneys, because they were coding their ass off for their companies.
We all want to see high level play in tournaments, but you don't have to measure the value of everything based on skill level. Why are there bronze league tournaments? Because someone values encouraging competition within the very newest members of the gaming community. In this case, the value of the tournament is supposed to be encouraging female gamers to get seriously competitive.
I agree with the sentiment of-- why do we have to bash people over the head with cliched girlishness. That pink is obnoxious. However, best of luck to this tournament and the women who enter it. I hope they are all encouraged to become serious competitors in other tournaments as well.
On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote: That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right? A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain "I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking.
Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking.
Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking.
Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill.
EDIT: I wish I could live to see the day when a female tournament can be announced without having a bunch of whiners complaining about it. Promoting female gaming can only have positive effects on the community. If you want to cry about it, go to one of the thousand other threads about the subject.
On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote: That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right? A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain "I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking.
Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking.
Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking.
Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill.
Try gettin laid brah.
I think this is great, anything to get more females interested/playing the game is a positive.
I don't see why transwomen shouldn't be allowed to participate. It's not like starcraft 2 is a game that is dependent on muscle/athletic ability that steroids can unfairly improve.
On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote: That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right? A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain "I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking.
Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking.
Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking.
Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill.
Try gettin laid brah.
I think this is great, anything to get more females interested/playing the game is a positive.
So you tell him to "Try to get laid" and then turn around and beg more women to play this video game, by any means nessicary...
On October 22 2011 14:37 Scrimpton wrote: That's just... not true GertHeart you must know... you must know that just isn't true.
I can throw around random anecdotes that may or may not be fabricated too, but it certainly won't add anything useful to the thread.
A girl does something, she gets praised whether she did a good job or not, cos hey she's hot right? A guy does something, he's a useless nobody unless he comes first in a very major event.
Must agree with Moskau too, the chance to shine is already there.
Female teams and creating infrastructure is really cool.
"I prefer to learn and train in a predominantly female environment" - Can't complain "I want to have access to much easier money because i'm not male" - Annoys people
I hope you can see the difference between the two.
Especially in eSports. Megumi, a 1600 masters at best, plays all day long with Strifecro, Destiny, Major, Ret, and a number of others. She got work as an interviewer at IPL, getting flown out there and put up in a hotel. She regularly has 300-1000 viewers on her stream, depending on who is on it. She moves pros around like chess pieces, setting up show matches because she feels like watching two pros play each other. Why is she able to do all this? Because she has a webcam on her stream and is good looking.
Anna Prosser, zero gaming pedigree, no passion at all in her interviews, a bronze level understanding of the game, on stage in a tiny ass cocktail dress at IPL asking guys "how do you feel right now?" Why? Because she's good looking.
Seltzer, on stage doing these incredibly awkward interviews, acting in an aggressive manner, and making completely inappropriate comments to the players and casters. Does she lose her job? Nope, she's good looking.
Pretty girls in esports are put on pedestals. They're paraded around in their cocktail dresses at IPL3 or their tiny ass jeans at NASL (lindsey sporrer anyone?). They're used for publicity and to make the crowds tune in. But we're not talking about pretty girls here. We're talking about female gamers. And there should ALWAYS be a difference between the two, even if the gamer is pretty, like a tossgirl. When the sport starts using women who are players the same way they use women who are SC2 celebrities, the sport as a whole has failed it's female gamers. And don't tell me that there is a difference in male to female brains. Of course there is, but that has nothing to do with video game skill. The reason that men are "more successful" then women at video games is because men play these games at a ratio of like 200-1 versus women. And men start playing at a younger age. Exceptions, like my clan mate PMS Flo, who have been playing games competitively for years and years (she was a CS pro before she switched over to SC2) are not only able to keep up with the boys but are able to crush almost all of them. Gender has nothing to do with the potential for skill.
Try gettin laid brah.
I think this is great, anything to get more females interested/playing the game is a positive.
I totally agree with this. If hosting a female only $5,000 event is what it takes to get a female gaming scene going, then im all for it! Why anyone would argue with this is beyond me. Some people just cant seem to get over it like its actually affecting them on a personal level. Just enjoy this event for what it is, and hopefully see it as a gateway for other female gamers to step up and start competing.
So you tell him to "Try to get laid" and then turn around and beg more women to play this video game, by any means nessicary...
...
I didn't beg any women to play this video game. I simply believe that extending out to an under represented group of gamers (women) via a tournament is a positive thing for E-sports.
Its really funny... Most well known girls are already out there have a name who can play well.. I am talking about Cadenza, Aurora and others.
One of the girls approached by this Hoax is a swedish girl who barely played the game.. one of her friends even approached me to help her out. No offense im all for helping out but why are they lying about putting up girls who are competitive when they barely know the game?
I wish they would clarify and tell us why they are sugar coating this when in fact girls participating is no one competitive and random girls who barely play the game or know about it.
I have been supporting the female community for a long time but this is simply outrageous and a hoax.
On October 22 2011 11:03 seiplo wrote: if i become a transvestite do i count as a girl?
Well... in Britain the answer to that question can be yes. Provided you've lived as a girl for 2 years (or can successfully lie that you have) and testify to a panel that you've had gender dysphoria (again, lie), then you'll be offically recognised as female, regardless of your actually biology.
Google Gender Recognition Act 2004 for more info. Not sure on the rulings in other countries althougth I expect most of western Europe is fairly liberal about these things.
On the actually tournament itself, I feel the intentions are noble (I hope they are) but the actual concept deplorable. Banning male players from competing is not the message you want. If you want to foster female talent then invest the money into getting some top female masters players into some decent coaching/team houses.
Female tournaments are fine. Iron Lady's cup is a great example of that. But this tournament didn't have a qualifier. It's only 6 people. And it's 10,000 dollars. It is clearly a publicity stunt, not a competitive tournament. As such, it's using female gamers as tools and not treating them as skilled professionals.
On October 23 2011 05:03 Shel wrote: Female tournaments are fine. Iron Lady's cup is a great example of that. But this tournament didn't have a qualifier. It's only 6 people. And it's 10,000 dollars. It is clearly a publicity stunt, not a competitive tournament. As such, it's using female gamers as tools and not treating them as skilled professionals.
That is exactly what it is why do they claim otherwise?.. why a big facade when its clearly untrue.
On October 21 2011 16:15 Derpmallow wrote: Not to be shooting this kind of idea down, but I feel like Esports is one of those places where being female should be the least big of a deal - rather than focusing on heavy physical activity, it's based around nimble fingermovements, memorization of patterns and the ability to think logically under stress. So I guess I don't get why we need a specific league for something where there's literally nothing stopping a girl from being damn good at the game, just as good as any guy.
Still, if this is the first step towards working in a new demographic, or simply helping more casual players see that there is an opportunity in the pro scene, more power to you and this idea. Hope it goes well!
Well as you self say; We need to support woman into gaming and there is no argument to it, we can't get globally accepted with a demographic of 99% males.
I don't enjoy most of the female clans/events being all pinkish and girly. My girlfriend hasn't joined any because, as you say, they're making a big deal about being female.
People need to realize; There is a difference between supporting females in esports/gaming culture, and Making a big deal about females in esports/gaming or spoiling them.
Supporting females is what Day9 does when he mentions that it isn't easy being a woman in esports. Making a big deal and ruining it for other woman is Kellymilkies dressing scandalous and talking shit about the esport scene, that doesn't support woman in any way other than making them into sex object and the "HEY LOOK I AM PRETTY BUT DONT KNOW ABOUT GAMIN"-myth that revolves around every woman ever in esports.
I hope it turns out good ! Do wonder how they'll make sure people are female though as to stop smurfing by pro's.
Just one second there - KellyMilkies was approached by FHM Singapore, and that's why you saw those sexy pictures of her. Sorry that the outcomes wasn't what you wanted, but think about this for a second.
Think about how many women went to the "dark side". We're talking about women from just about every professional walk of life you can possibly think of. Tennis players, wrestlers, cooking show hosts...I can't possibly name them all. Yet these women have done modelling in some shape or form. Are you seeing these women differently due to these modelling gigs(in additional to their normal profession)?
If you are - let me ask you why you are not judging men this way. Come on, come on...you've seen the fragrance ads for men. Same thing. It's men who have modelling gigs on the side.
On October 21 2011 20:32 Papulatus wrote: Cool a sexist tournament.
What if a current tournament came along and said that only males are allowed?
I don't get the clear hypocrisy in modern society....
It's called "supporting the minority".
Males are the majority, no special tournaments needed as they are almost all male-only anyways. Do you want all tournaments to stay that way or wouldn't you like to see some TossGirl mixing it up from time to time? That will only happen if we get enough women into SC2 so a big enough pool exists for some good enough female pros to spawn from it. That won't happen if we treat them poorly.
Until there is a big pool of female players, they do need their own tournaments.
Why do "we" have to force a large pool of females. Its cold fact that this tournament is sexist, and I find that repulsive.
I would like to see TossGirl mix it up from time to time. Did I say anywhere that I'm against women competing with men? I really want to see that, but I don't see why aspiring females should get special treatment over males.
If females want to compete with males, they need to put in the time and dedication like any other up-and-coming male has to. They then need to entire a tournament and get deep into it like any other male has too.
I don't support clear sexism and hypocrisy.
You need to what understand that what YOU want, does not equal, what others want. That's a critical life skill that you'd best embrace immediately. I'll say it again:
It's not about what you want. It's about what others want.
And the sooner you realize this, and help others achieve their goals = helping yourself achieve your own personal goals.
You seem angry over double-standards...which are the norm in this lifetime. You are not saying nor suggesting that women start opening doors for men. You are not suggesting that all men stop being chivalrous, and suddenly devolve into horny ogres. Therefore, it's not a stretch for you to accept things as they are.
Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker.
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
yet there are many off-the-cuff tourneys that spring up, which involve bronze - plat players. you are not protesting the existence of those tourneys, right?
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
Well in sc2, men are practicing more, so naturally at the moment we are better. If you read the op it says the goal is to bring more women into esports gaming through a big prize pool.
what stops females from practising more? so they can practice 2 hours a day get to masters, and have tournaments with 10k$ prize pools? lol
it's not money that your pocket will ever see - so why the objection?
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
and how do YOU know, who should or shouldn't be invited? you're not running this tourney. holy sour grapes batman. just because your clanmates didn't get invited, you're all aggro'ed?
So you're effectively saying, no matter which girl wins this tourney, it means nothing? an all-female SC2 tourney and oh look, you're still pissed. Great show son
On October 23 2011 03:02 VampireLady wrote: Its really funny... Most well known girls are already out there have a name who can play well.. I am talking about Cadenza, Aurora and others.
One of the girls approached by this Hoax is a swedish girl who barely played the game.. one of her friends even approached me to help her out. No offense im all for helping out but why are they lying about putting up girls who are competitive when they barely know the game?
I wish they would clarify and tell us why they are sugar coating this when in fact girls participating is no one competitive and random girls who barely play the game or know about it.
I have been supporting the female community for a long time but this is simply outrageous and a hoax.
Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker.
Maybe because the physical limits of these sports make it impossible for the women to be competitive? The reason poker isn't segregated is the exact same reason Starcraft 2 shouldn't be as well, gender has nothing to do with the success of the player.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
Im glad you came out and said this. I saw aurora (I think?) at IPL, she played really well, almost won vs TT1. She deserves respect. This tournament deserves none
Why so mad bro? Girls can be good, and they can beat boys too. I beated TT1 as well, and Desrow. I'll participate at this tournament and I think I can beat many of you, so stop QQing and accept that girls can get some advantage of being a girl.
The whole point is that we already know girls can compete with boys, so drop the attitude. Stop mentioning your a girl every time you post, stream or start a game. it de-legitimises your persona of "nothing to prove"
The attitude, rofl. It's not my problem if you can't accept that there's some people in the world who would like to see more female in E-sports for more than their physic, so they make tournament for them, to encourage them and let them a chance to prove that they're good. Go read some comments above, and after that you'll maybe understand my attitude: ''what a waste of money'', ''I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play?'
By the way, I mentionned that I'm a girl just because I said that I'll participate in that tournament, so stop bming, I'm just trying to explain myself.
Just ignore the guys like this :/, Having known a lot of gamer girls, they have a hard time online after guys realize they are actually girls quite often. Most guys treat guys differently, the moment you tell them they are a girl, the attitude changes towards you, they try to hook up with them, if rejected, then you are a shitty player and they call all your mistakes and count none of their own. I see bronze guys make fun of masters females saying they suck, yet they don't realize they are worse than the girls all the time.
Here is some food for thought for you guys.
If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, people are like "Cool, good for him that he is getting some modeling." if a Girl does it, it's "She's using her sex to get looks." Many guys fail to see the difference, because they were raised as "My daughter shouldn't have sex." while "Word, my son just got laid." Type of mind set. I was more raised by my sisters and my mother so I don't see this as much.
What other people don't realize is, in business men will team up to destroy women first before they deal with each other, while women often don't team up with other women and try to fight everyone. The world is much more brutal for these female gamers. No matter what they do they are treated very different from guys.
TL:DR
A girl does something, she's bad. A guy does something, it's cool.
Just felt like pointing out some logical inconsistancies here. Firstly, not all guys try to hook up with gamer girls upon realizing they are female.That is a sweeping generalization, and even the ones that do are usually idiots. Second, people make fun of more skilled players all the time, this is a product of general immaturity (EX: "Oh, Goody sucks with his 60apm" has been thrown around often by bronze leaguers.)
Third: If nada takes off his shirt and shows his abs, he is NOT doing it to get fans. Nada has proven that he is a champion, repeatedly, and will have his reasons for taking off his shirt. If a girl does it and posts the pictures online, that is how she is selling herself (not as a gamer, but as a girl gamer). Nada doesn't need to take off his shirt to have fans.
The business part is irrelevant and off-topic. (and are you shitting me? Groups of girls will absolutely wreck other girls psychologically for no good reason) The ONLY thing that could possibly make the world "brutal" for female gamers would be that they don't have any friends playing, but hey, I only have 1 starcraft friend and I don't consider it brutal.
But hey, good for the girls in this tourney. While I wish it were an open tourney, I wish them the best of luck! And I hope they don't victimize themselves as much as you do for them, because with that attitude you can't be a winner.
I find it silly that you are saying there are inconsistencies, when you yourself are showing exactly what I am talking about.
It's her personality and she will get judged much more harshly for doing it. You yourself did it in the nada example the exact thing I said "Because he is a proven champion." It doesn't matter if he is or isn't. If you call one a whore for doing it, then call nada a whore too. I prefer to call both just being themselves and doing whatever they want.
Also, girls enter open tournaments, just not many. But more and more will enter them because of events like this.
It's a good start. What I don't get is, this doesn't hurt anyone and it helps to grow esports in another demographic but so many guys complain "It should be an open tournament." There are so many already, stop caring about that, 10k is a drop in the bucket compared to how much open tournaments have given out already.
I wish you the best of luck and I really hope you see that you are possibly one of those guys who is "Tina, you have to be home by 7, son you can be home whenever." Types without possibly realizing it.
The obvious discrepancy that you are ignoring is that famous girls in this community so far have an unfortunate track record of using their bodies to get fans and get some (usually short lived) e-fame, whereas a proven champion used their dedication and skill to get recognition.
I hope you were ignoring the discrepancy in a vain attempt to make your viewpoint seem stronger, the alternative would be unfortunate!
you're not seeing the full picture.
If a female gamer is approached by a magazine to model for them, write an article about them - it gets them exposure. These women are not simply taking all their clothes off and posting pics all over TL forums.
If YOU were approached by magazine, and you claim that, you'd outright refuse, I see a liar.
In short, it's none of your your business how they claim their fame. They are here to play and that's that.
On October 23 2011 00:10 Thrombozyt wrote: Oh.. and a question I was pondering in the last 'girl only event' thread.. maybe someone could answer it here..
"I just wonder (without any kind of hate - and it's sad that I have to even type this): Are transgender girls (so the boy->girl kind) allowed to enter female only cups? I know, that such a person is banned from most competitive female only competitions - usually the athletic kind. To my knowledge, there is even a rudimentary test to spot women with an XY genotype even though they were never men, just because they unique hormonal situation gives them an edge over XX women."
i'm sorry, but this would be just complicating the situation. right now in esports you're either male or female. and please we really don't want to make the situation even more scandalous(remember that situation with that female runner who had to "prove" that's she's female via a humiliating genital examination).
So sorry but the only answer to your question, is a non-answer for now.
Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker.
Maybe because the physical limits of these sports make it impossible for the women to be competitive? The reason poker isn't segregated is the exact same reason Starcraft 2 shouldn't be as well, gender has nothing to do with the success of the player.
that's not strictly true, example, women's beach volleyball.
you can't be suggesting women to mix it up with men in hockey for example. Hockey is a violent sport by nature and pitting women in the ice with big, burly men is asking for trouble, not to mention the public outcry on seeing a male enforcer pummel a woman into oblivion would be sport-killing.
still, it's not a physical limit. and as for poker. google jennifer tilly. She has certain assets that she uses to her advantage to win tourneys.
On October 23 2011 09:24 rza wrote: i dont think its a great idee to make a female tournament I dont think in gaming female are naturally disavantage compare to male..
but you don't mind female-only sports right, eg. women's beach volleyball, where no men are allowed(to play).
the point of this thread isnt to discuss whether or not there should be female only tournaments. There's a lot of threads on that already. There's a lot more here to discuss, like who's being inviting, on what qualifications, and why wasn't there a qualifier?
I think the most important question of all is how much do sex changes cost and if these tournaments are recurring, how long until a sex-changed male can break even (assuming he can win them all)?
On October 23 2011 10:33 LittleAtari wrote: the point of this thread isnt to discuss whether or not there should be female only tournaments. There's a lot of threads on that already. There's a lot more here to discuss, like who's being inviting, on what qualifications, and why wasn't there a qualifier?
Well said. I'm curious as well why there wasn't a qualifier. I understand their position on LAN but if you're trying to promote professional competitive female gaming...it seems counter-intuitive to be so exclusive.
I'm very excited that there's a female-only tournament with such a large prize pool but with only 6 women competing, it feels more like a series of showmatches than a tournament. Still, a start is a start.
Ummm...women's volleyball? You think that it isn't segregated because of the physical difference between men and women?
There's nothing wrong with female only tournaments. They aren't necessary from a fairness point of view, but it's not a bad thing to recognize a minority in any situation. Black history month, for example, is a great idea. But this tournament isn't about promoting women in esports.No qualifier, only 6 participants whose names aren't being revealed, and a ridiculous prize pool. This is a publicity stunt, using the fact that male gamers think female gamers are hot to gain publicity for their company and products. These women are being used, and we're being told it's supposed to pave the road for female sc2 gamers. It's bullshit to rival something Congress would do.
On October 21 2011 17:23 Stark1 wrote: I'm all for e-sports, but... $10k for what? Mid-Masters level play? How is it not offensive to both genders that females are being held to a far lower standard than are the men?
Well in sc2, men are practicing more, so naturally at the moment we are better. If you read the op it says the goal is to bring more women into esports gaming through a big prize pool.
what stops females from practising more? so they can practice 2 hours a day get to masters, and have tournaments with 10k$ prize pools? lol
it's not money that your pocket will ever see - so why the objection?
Well.. there are many gamers out there, that never have and never will win any tournament. Many of those gamers would actually like to win something and are improving their play. Those are the gamers in masters or low grandmasters.
Along comes a tourney, pretending to be a contest of skill, that hands out major money to starcraft players, that you know you can beat. You have worked harder, are more talented and invested more time into the game. Yet you will never win, while there are other gamers, that you could easily beat, that get money, a title and recognition, because they lack a penis.
I think that's what's pissing off so many. You cannot compare it to bronze league only tourneys, that for one have no cash prize and also have no real bragging rights and recognition. Here an organisation pretends to pick out good gamers, fly them out to china, lets them be the center of attention and gives them a cash prize for an sc2 performance that could be beaten by many.
Imagine your diamond trainings partner that you help out to develop his skills gets chosen because of a random arbitrary trait that he has. But he is lauded for his SC2 skills. Wouldn't that feel just wrong?
I guess you would have less backlash if the tourney staff would have come forward announcing that they use SC2 as a tie breaker in their 10k prize pool wet T-shirt contest. Simply because it would be clear, that the participants get the cash and recognition not for their SC2 skills, but because of other traits.
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
and how do YOU know, who should or shouldn't be invited? you're not running this tourney. holy sour grapes batman. just because your clanmates didn't get invited, you're all aggro'ed?
So you're effectively saying, no matter which girl wins this tourney, it means nothing? an all-female SC2 tourney and oh look, you're still pissed. Great show son
This is so ridicuolous i can tell you names who were approached or have been invited who have been allegedly accused of cheating by numerous people. Plus a girl who never ever played 1v1 in her life.. and she gets inviteD? and master playrs like Flo is a second choice? whos masters and a skilled player.
Are you kidding me? this whole tournament is a fraud and its based on random girls they pick based on their popular or not it has NOTHING to do with their skill.
We have developed a tournament concept called “ZOWIE DIVINA” where we will gather the best girls we can find from around the world and bring them to a given location to participate and compete against other girls in StarCraft 2.
Claiming this and inviting plat or lower girls over masters+ and claiming the best girls.. They even wanted invited bronze girls or wanted to invite another bronzey over a masters player... Joke much?
On October 22 2011 11:39 Shel wrote: Two of the best female players in NA are in my clan, PMS Flo and PMS Aurora. They both go to every MLG, fight through the open bracket, usually get knocked out by a high level pro in the winners round 2 or 3, then win a few in losers bracket before they meet a high level pro there. Neither of these girls was invited.
You can't have a 6 person tournament that has ANY relevance unless you're pulling from the best of the best, like Code S or MLG. NO woman has gotten a following aside from Eve, Megumi, and Tossgirl. That's 3, and there is ZERO evidence that they are even in the top 10 of female players.
Aside from that, having a female only tournament, while I understand the impulse, is ridiculous. It's kind of ingrained in us that you separate women from men in sports. But, as previous posters have said, that's because of physical differences. There is ZERO reason to do it in a computer game.
Having a female only tourney is ridiculous. Have a 6 person invite only female tournament for ten thousand dollars is offensive and sexist. These women are being used as props for publicity. They're being paraded. The people running this tournament don't care about female gaming or about promoting esports, they care about their company and what gimmicky bullshit they can pull to get attention. If they'd had an online qualifier, if they'd pulled players with top rankings in sc2 ranks, then that would at least RESEMBLE a real tournament. Why the big secret about who has been invited? Probably to stop people from publicly bashing their decisions. This company is pathetic.
and how do YOU know, who should or shouldn't be invited? you're not running this tourney. holy sour grapes batman. just because your clanmates didn't get invited, you're all aggro'ed?
So you're effectively saying, no matter which girl wins this tourney, it means nothing? an all-female SC2 tourney and oh look, you're still pissed. Great show son
This is so ridicuolous i can tell you names who were approached or have been invited who have been allegedly accused of cheating by numerous people. Plus a girl who never ever played 1v1 in her life.. and she gets inviteD? and master playrs like Flo is a second choice? whos masters and a skilled player.
Are you kidding me? this whole tournament is a fraud and its based on random girls they pick based on their popular or not it has NOTHING to do with their skill.
We have developed a tournament concept called “ZOWIE DIVINA” where we will gather the best girls we can find from around the world and bring them to a given location to participate and compete against other girls in StarCraft 2.
Claiming this and inviting plat or lower girls over masters+ and claiming the best girls.. They even wanted invited bronze girls or wanted to invite another bronzey over a masters player... Joke much?
yeah what about the females that are out actually competing at events and holding their own against players like TT1? like aurora shes been to several events, defeated several top pro males on her stream and been the only female competitor at several major events as well, the most recent being IPL3.
Well, I found out that Flo, formerly of PMS, has been invited. She's a regular at MLGs, and is definitely a top female player. So maybe this tourney isn't a publicity stunt after all.
On October 30 2011 12:22 Shel wrote: Well, I found out that Flo, formerly of PMS, has been invited. She's a regular at MLGs, and is definitely a top female player. So maybe this tourney isn't a publicity stunt after all.
They told me that they will reveal the identity of the girls to the community later, to keep the surprise. There's one girl per country. And the US has no one because no one could participate to the tournament... There's one for China, one for Taiwan, one for Korea, I think we'll be two for Canada, and one for Sweden. ^.^ So you'll know the rest the 8th November.
I'd love to see more and bigger female SC2 tournaments, but I'll wait for the list of invites before doing thumbsup. If it turns out to be just a popularity ploy they're really not doing the female gaming community a favor, quite the opposite.
10k is quite a lot considering the level of female play right now, and it doesnt seem fair to me that male players have to work a lot harder to earn that kind of money, i dont think female play has reached the professional state yet and the money could be spent better. e.g. to support up and coming female players.
Nice to see, but at the same time, I have to admit that I'm a bit confused to see this happening, considering the state of the female sc2 scene. Well, w/e, it can only be good.
I think you're spilling too many beans, DaSakura... If the participants are supposed to remain a secret until the 8th, we shouldn't be able to piece them together from your posts over a week before... It's awesome that you're going, so don't get yourself disqualified or anything...
Anyway, I just have a quick question. I'm sorry it's kind of off topic, but it doesn't deserve its own thread nor a bump for any other threads, so I'll go ahead and hope it's okay:
Has someone ever calculated the statistical probability for women being better or worse than men in SC2? I would think that we'd begin to have a decent empirical background for it now, with MLG's and IPL's and so on. Basically, it would be a testing of a null hypothesis: Given that men and women are equally skilled (following the Bell curve and all that fancy stuff), how probable is it that women can win MLG (or whatever) given the gender distribution of today? i.e., given that only a few women compete in MLG as opposed to the ~200 males, are they doing as expected, winning a couple of matches but never the whole tournament?
As I said, I don't want to bring the thread off topic again, so I don't want to start any discussion about it, but I'm hoping for a definite link to such a thread, or alternately a definite "no" from anyone who would know. If it doesn't exist, it would be cool if someone did the calculations (I imagine it would be fairly easy for someone who knows what they're doing, but I, I'm afraid, don't), but that would deserve its own thread, I believe. So, a simple link or "no" and then back to topic.
Also, back on topic, I think it's cool that women get more of the spotlight. Although after seeing the discussions in this thread, I am a bit worried about the selection of girls for the tournament... I guess I'll wait for the 8th to make up my mind about it...
On October 31 2011 19:14 iMAniaC wrote: I think you're spilling too many beans, DaSakura... If the participants are supposed to remain a secret until the 8th, we shouldn't be able to piece them together from your posts over a week before... It's awesome that you're going, so don't get yourself disqualified or anything...
Anyway, I just have a quick question. I'm sorry it's kind of off topic, but it doesn't deserve its own thread nor a bump for any other threads, so I'll go ahead and hope it's okay:
Has someone ever calculated the statistical probability for women being better or worse than men in SC2? I would think that we'd begin to have a decent empirical background for it now, with MLG's and IPL's and so on. Basically, it would be a testing of a null hypothesis: Given that men and women are equally skilled (following the Bell curve and all that fancy stuff), how probable is it that women can win MLG (or whatever) given the gender distribution of today? i.e., given that only a few women compete in MLG as opposed to the ~200 males, are they doing as expected, winning a couple of matches but never the whole tournament?
As I said, I don't want to bring the thread off topic again, so I don't want to start any discussion about it, but I'm hoping for a definite link to such a thread, or alternately a definite "no" from anyone who would know. If it doesn't exist, it would be cool if someone did the calculations (I imagine it would be fairly easy for someone who knows what they're doing, but I, I'm afraid, don't), but that would deserve its own thread, I believe. So, a simple link or "no" and then back to topic.
Also, back on topic, I think it's cool that women get more of the spotlight. Although after seeing the discussions in this thread, I am a bit worried about the selection of girls for the tournament... I guess I'll wait for the 8th to make up my mind about it...
The number of female participants in MLG is not statistically significant enough to give any indication at all. Once we have more than ~10% of the players being female, it's possible to calculate bell curves and whatever, until then the margin of error due to outliers is far too big.
I'm convinced that if the pool of male and female players would be equally large, the skill difference would be virtually non-existant.
pfft ridiculous idea. In other sports maybe males and females should be seprated for obvious general physique differences but this kind of tourney assumes that female players somehow have less mental skill or need special treatment. I see that they are trying give as leg up to female players but t IMO stuff like this actually promotes sexism.
And according to the PLU (collaboration media in China) forum, DaSakura, Flo, Colagirl from China, RainBOw's girlfriend (don't know her name sorry) will participate. I don't know the other two girls by their photo. Here's the link:http://bbs.plu.cn/thread-1824423-1-1.html
I'm glad I bought a Das Keyboard and am therefore not a sponsor of such a sexistic idea.
So far no female SC2 player has made the slightest impact upon esports and I find it highly disrespectful to all male midlevel players who have put ten times as much effort into this game to organize a tournament with such a large pricepool.
I'm looking forward to this, especially if Eve is one of the invites ... I want to see what she can do after practicing with SlayerS for a few months. I'm also rooting for DaSakura.
I think it would have been better if they split this money up into multiple tournaments. Lets be honest this kind of money is not going to be generated very often for female tournaments because simply put people aren't really going to watch. So spreading it around a little more would go a longer way IMO.
I'd also prefer amateur only tournaments rather than separating it out based on Gender. I can't say for sure without seeing this tourney but I have at least 3 or 4 friends that could probably win it who have no chance at placing high at an MLG. It would be nice for players that don't have 8 hours a day to play to have a tourney as well.
Ultimately though anything below the highest levels of play is not going to bring in viewers. Which means they are not really financially viable. But if people want to throw away some money every now and again than feel free.
I will just say that prize pool is not the only important factor when holding a tournament. It should be interesting at the least. I really hope the casters are not female too or else it would seem a little too awkward.
IMO the community needs to get away from this separation. At the moment it seems like its either a "anyone can enter" tournament or a "female only" tournament. Why does it have to be female only? The day when we have a "male only" tournament, everyone will flip tables and make a big deal over it. Girl players will say this is a sexist outrage in an attempt to bring it down. But, when something like this happens, most people show sympathy and be glad for female players.
This just seems wrong to me. This is a video game. It isnt like a contact sport where it has physical limitations on the human body (however there are female contact sports). This isnt the naturally stronger male human body vs the naturally lesser strong female human body (this isnt a flame or a troll, it's science). This is mind vs mind.
Any tournament should allow everyone and anyone, period. This is bad for esports imo.
On top of that, I think that it's stuff like this that generates the disrespect towards females in general. They never want to have anything to do with competing vs males. Having a female only tournament only gives more reason for haters to flame the female gaming community. It should be ONE community, not 2. If female players get discouraged because they have to compete vs male players, then it's their own damn fault. News flash: male players get intimidated too!!!! They get scared too!!!!!
On November 04 2011 23:17 ishyishy wrote: I will just say that prize pool is not the only important factor when holding a tournament. It should be interesting at the least. I really hope the casters are not female too or else it would seem a little too awkward.
IMO the community needs to get away from this separation. At the moment it seems like its either a "anyone can enter" tournament or a "female only" tournament. Why does it have to be female only? The day when we have a "male only" tournament, everyone will flip tables and make a big deal over it. Girl players will say this is a sexist outrage in an attempt to bring it down. But, when something like this happens, most people show sympathy and be glad for female players.
This just seems wrong to me. This is a video game. It isnt like a contact sport where it has physical limitations on the human body (however there are female contact sports). This isnt the naturally stronger male human body vs the naturally lesser strong female human body (this isnt a flame or a troll, it's science). This is mind vs mind.
Any tournament should allow everyone and anyone, period. This is bad for esports imo.
On top of that, I think that it's stuff like this that generates the disrespect towards females in general. They never want to have anything to do with competing vs males. Having a female only tournament only gives more reason for haters to flame the female gaming community. It should be ONE community, not 2. If female players get discouraged because they have to compete vs male players, then it's their own damn fault. News flash: male players get intimidated too!!!! They get scared too!!!!!
You dont get it... Anyone is free to host any tournament with whatever qualifications he wants. If I had 5000 dollars laying around I could have a tournament only for swedish people, or only for toss players, or only for left handed players... This is just like the old Team liquid star leagues, where koreans were banned from competing. That helped the foreign community, because if koreans were allowed noone would even have taken a game off them. Just like this will help women to get into the community more. Eventually sure tournaments should be open to everyone but we are not there yet and this is a step in the right direction.
On November 05 2011 00:03 Railin wrote: Of course, it's great to have another female tournament with real prize money, however lack of a qualifier kinda makes this feel odd.
You mean like the TotalBiscuit invites, DreamHack Invites, GSL AOL invites, IEM Invites etc? Yeah, it is pretty unorthodox.
I just looked at the thread announcing the players. They have pictures of all of the girls. All but one of them is really good looking, casters included. Not just moderately attractive, but frickin hot. This is bullshit.
I would normally bring in my sexist idealogies, but then I realized that this is TL, not the b.net forums. So, congrats to the girls, and holy shit prize money.
Of course women have the ability to be just as good as males but because of social pressure and the stigma that gaming can have its hard for a women to spend as much time playing a game. Of course its possible I just think most women that would have the skill and competative nature to play sc2 at a high level will more than likely focus on something more socially acceptable, as well as more lucrative in the long run. just my 2 cents.
Why should women be forced to compete with men in an esport, when in "real" sports men and women are segregated as a matter of course. Well except for poker.
Maybe because the physical limits of these sports make it impossible for the women to be competitive? The reason poker isn't segregated is the exact same reason Starcraft 2 shouldn't be as well, gender has nothing to do with the success of the player.
On October 22 2011 15:52 GertHeart wrote: What I don't get is, this doesn't hurt anyone and it helps to grow esports
jealousy? retarded matcho idiots? put whatever you want in, all with a piece of working brain will know that it is true.
i follow female esport a long time and i worked for a female team too, i have seen Girls that kick ass and i have seen the stereotype of female gamers. That say they can play as good as males but they actually never showed it. I can accept female tournaments and i have no problem cause in reality. Even if a female is as good as a male she has a hard time getting a practise partner. Simple cause men wont get beaten up buy a girl. Was true in Quake, is still true in counterstrike, was true in warcraft 3 and will stay true in starcraft 2.
Another thing that would affect female gamers is the community as a whole. Imagine a girl gamer having the skill of a Nestea. Wouldn't that be amazing!?! No think about how much shit she would have to deal with if she had a body/looks (by comparison) like Sheth. I wouldn't wanna deal with that bull shit. No one fucks with sheth cause he the nicest guy ever and because he just cool. But if that was a women that would be what 90% (<-- pulled that number out my ass) of what people would talk about.
On November 04 2011 23:17 ishyishy wrote: I will just say that prize pool is not the only important factor when holding a tournament. It should be interesting at the least. I really hope the casters are not female too or else it would seem a little too awkward.
IMO the community needs to get away from this separation. At the moment it seems like its either a "anyone can enter" tournament or a "female only" tournament. Why does it have to be female only? The day when we have a "male only" tournament, everyone will flip tables and make a big deal over it. Girl players will say this is a sexist outrage in an attempt to bring it down. But, when something like this happens, most people show sympathy and be glad for female players.
This just seems wrong to me. This is a video game. It isnt like a contact sport where it has physical limitations on the human body (however there are female contact sports). This isnt the naturally stronger male human body vs the naturally lesser strong female human body (this isnt a flame or a troll, it's science). This is mind vs mind.
Any tournament should allow everyone and anyone, period. This is bad for esports imo.
On top of that, I think that it's stuff like this that generates the disrespect towards females in general. They never want to have anything to do with competing vs males. Having a female only tournament only gives more reason for haters to flame the female gaming community. It should be ONE community, not 2. If female players get discouraged because they have to compete vs male players, then it's their own damn fault. News flash: male players get intimidated too!!!! They get scared too!!!!!
You dont get it... Anyone is free to host any tournament with whatever qualifications he wants. If I had 5000 dollars laying around I could have a tournament only for swedish people, or only for toss players, or only for left handed players... This is just like the old Team liquid star leagues, where koreans were banned from competing. That helped the foreign community, because if koreans were allowed noone would even have taken a game off them. Just like this will help women to get into the community more. Eventually sure tournaments should be open to everyone but we are not there yet and this is a step in the right direction.
Surely anyone is free to host any sexist tournament they want, however, you claim this will help women get in to starcraft 2 more. Did you mean attractive women? Because looking at 7/8's of the pictures this tournament is really advertising that if you are a good looking female you can compete for $5k with basic skills way lower than ANY pro male. I can't see how this helps esports at all.
On November 09 2011 14:34 Shel wrote: I just looked at the thread announcing the players. They have pictures of all of the girls. All but one of them is really good looking, casters included. Not just moderately attractive, but frickin hot. This is bullshit.
Yeah, they should pick ugly girls instead of those that have won tournaments, are ranked high on ladder or have been gamers for many years. Disqualifying players for being too good looking would have been just fair and I'm sure the girls would understand.
P.S. If you didn't actually mean to criticize the tournament with your "This is bullshit" utterance, then please just disregard this post.
Maniac, don't be an idiot. The girls were hand selected. The reason Divina gave for not having an online qualifier is that you can't accurately determine the skill of a player online. That true skill can only be determined based on LANs. Only one of these girls has competed in a major LAN, and that's Flo. One of the girls is a diamond player. 4 are masters and one is GM. I'm not suggesting that it's not ok to pick attractive women. I'm saying that these women were picked because they are attractive. The only one that isn't pretty damn good looking is the GM.
Divina is putting on a publicity show. They are using these girls to get viewers and the word of their products out. They are manipulating the men in the SC2 community by using sex as a draw to their event. This tournament doesn't even have the APPEARANCE of being about gaming, based on the facts that they had no online qualifiers, it's female only, the women selected were almost all hot, and the reason they gave for not having a qualifier was not only a stupid one, but they didn't even stick to it. Like I said before, this is bullshit.
I'm somewhat conflicted by this. I am not usually for the segregation of genders in this type of thing. there really isn't anything keeping girls from doing what the guys do except a drive to succeed. If they don't have that, what's the point.
On the other hand I can see why a platform for girls to experience the culture would be a good thing...
I don't know, its an iffy subject but I am more for it than against it.
On November 09 2011 16:57 Shel wrote: Maniac, don't be an idiot. The girls were hand selected. The reason Divina gave for not having an online qualifier is that you can't accurately determine the skill of a player online. That true skill can only be determined based on LANs. Only one of these girls has competed in a major LAN, and that's Flo. One of the girls is a diamond player. 4 are masters and one is GM. I'm not suggesting that it's not ok to pick attractive women. I'm saying that these women were picked because they are attractive. The only one that isn't pretty damn good looking is the GM.
Divina is putting on a publicity show. They are using these girls to get viewers and the word of their products out. They are manipulating the men in the SC2 community by using sex as a draw to their event. This tournament doesn't even have the APPEARANCE of being about gaming, based on the facts that they had no online qualifiers, it's female only, the women selected were almost all hot, and the reason they gave for not having a qualifier was not only a stupid one, but they didn't even stick to it. Like I said before, this is bullshit.
My point was that to me, it seems that (almost) all of the girls are deserving enough to be there (except perhaps the diamond player, which I shall admit seems a little odd. However, I would accept that perhaps they want their European girl to be Swedish, since there are Swedes in GSL). And, given my premise that they're deserving enough to be there, it would be unfair towards the girls to exclude them in order to get some sort of equal ratio between the pretty girls and the ugly girls (a classification, by the way, which I don't care for one bit, but that's a whole other discussion and I'm assuming for the sake of argument that there are "objectively ugly girls").
However, I propose we end this discussion short. Since you think that Flo is the only one deserving to go there, and I think that there are at least four others, we'd be talking at cross-purposes (that is, not really about the same thing, if I managed to use that idiom correctly) if we continue talking about pretty and ugly girls. But I hope I've managed to explain what I meant.
However, I do believe that the invitational should have had more invites (although I do realize that it may not have been financially feasible). If there had been ~16 players, I guess most would have been able to see their favourite go, and we wouldn't be having as many posts about who's deserving or not.
You misunderstood. I don't think Flo is the only one qualified to go. According to Divina's reason for not having an online qualifier, Flo is the only one qualified to go. I don't know these girls. I know Flo is an MLG badass, and I know another girl is a GM, so certainly they both deserve to be there. But you can't go to SC2Ranks and search for the top 6 girls. How did they even find these women? And there is no way to determine what level any of them are at in terms of who is the best female. I would guess the GM is probably the best in the world, given that she's not only GM but GM on KR. But are there any other female GMs? Female 1800+ masters? There's no way to know for sure.
On November 09 2011 16:57 Shel wrote: Maniac, don't be an idiot. The girls were hand selected. The reason Divina gave for not having an online qualifier is that you can't accurately determine the skill of a player online. That true skill can only be determined based on LANs. Only one of these girls has competed in a major LAN, and that's Flo. One of the girls is a diamond player. 4 are masters and one is GM. I'm not suggesting that it's not ok to pick attractive women. I'm saying that these women were picked because they are attractive. The only one that isn't pretty damn good looking is the GM.
Divina is putting on a publicity show. They are using these girls to get viewers and the word of their products out. They are manipulating the men in the SC2 community by using sex as a draw to their event. This tournament doesn't even have the APPEARANCE of being about gaming, based on the facts that they had no online qualifiers, it's female only, the women selected were almost all hot, and the reason they gave for not having a qualifier was not only a stupid one, but they didn't even stick to it. Like I said before, this is bullshit.
My point was that to me, it seems that (almost) all of the girls are deserving enough to be there (except perhaps the diamond player, which I shall admit seems a little odd. However, I would accept that perhaps they want their European girl to be Swedish, since there are Swedes in GSL). And, given my premise that they're deserving enough to be there, it would be unfair towards the girls to exclude them in order to get some sort of equal ratio between the pretty girls and the ugly girls (a classification, by the way, which I don't care for one bit, but that's a whole other discussion and I'm assuming for the sake of argument that there are "objectively ugly girls").
However, I propose we end this discussion short. Since you think that Flo is the only one deserving to go there, and I think that there are at least four others, we'd be talking at cross-purposes (that is, not really about the same thing, if I managed to use that idiom correctly) if we continue talking about pretty and ugly girls. But I hope I've managed to explain what I meant.
However, I do believe that the invitational should have had more invites (although I do realize that it may not have been financially feasible). If there had been ~16 players, I guess most would have been able to see their favourite go, and we wouldn't be having as many posts about who's deserving or not.
Well is there any ugly girls that popular and good at the game so they could invite? Nope, so they just invite whoever they want. What's your problem? Flo is good, Rainbow's gf is master on Kr server so she's much better than lots of NA GM as well. Just wait and see how it's gonna turn out will you? If you dislike this, just leave.
On November 10 2011 04:19 Shel wrote: You misunderstood. I don't think Flo is the only one qualified to go. According to Divina's reason for not having an online qualifier, Flo is the only one qualified to go. I don't know these girls. I know Flo is an MLG badass, and I know another girl is a GM, so certainly they both deserve to be there. But you can't go to SC2Ranks and search for the top 6 girls. How did they even find these women? And there is no way to determine what level any of them are at in terms of who is the best female. I would guess the GM is probably the best in the world, given that she's not only GM but GM on KR. But are there any other female GMs? Female 1800+ masters? There's no way to know for sure.
Oh, okay. You're right, I misunderstood. Still, their basis for choosing those girls aren't as shaky as you think. I, too, hadn't heard about most of them before, but if you take a look at their Liquipedia pages (that's right, most of them actually have LP pages now!), you'll see that ColaGirl has won a WCG (so she has LAN experience, even though it's WC3), and SSQ got sponsored as a progamer in 2005 and has played against Moon in a showmatch (but again, in WC3).
As for the three remaining ones, I can't find any major LAN background, so if we agree that only half of the girls match the criteria that the organizers set up, I guess that's a good compromise, eh?
And tuho, did you mean to quote me or Shel? I tried to argue, just as you did, that it's okay for them to invite the girls that have been invited. ... I seem to fail at communication in this thread :/
I'm in H2O, the male side of PMS. Aurora is awesome. But winning an ironlady cup isn't that big of a deal. I mean, it requires some badass skill, no doubt, but I think Flo has 3, another one of the girls in the tourney has a number of other online cups. Now that I think about it, I think we picked up Aurora BECAUSE she beat Flo in an ironlady...I don't remember. I definitely think she would have been a good candidate though. Maybe she was one of the girls they didn't pick?
So there is another thread where the guy talks about the selection process. He said he could only find 12 SC2 female gamers, and of them he picked "the best according to reputation in the community." Whatever. I have no idea how a diamond player gets a rep for being one of the best in any community...still seems like a load of crap to me.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.zowiegear.com/images/stories/divina.png)
