The transition between ladder seasons is generally a time when we take the opportunity to make adjustments to the ladder map pool. In Season 4, the 1v1 pool will remain unchanged, but we will be removing the following maps from the 2v2 map pool:
(4)Khaydarin Depths (8)Tempest
They will be replaced with the following maps:
(4)Lunar Colony V (8)Magma Core
We have chosen to remove Khaydarin Depths and Tempest from the 2v2 ladder pool because expanding can be a challenge for certain team compositions on these maps, and they aren’t as balanced as we would prefer for other team compositions. We also wanted to focus on maps that start 2v2 teammates closer together at the beginning of a match. Lunar Colony V and Magma Core are maps that should address these issues.
Personally I'm pretty against this, what happened to keeping the map pool fresh and exciting? Or having a macro map/rush map/middle map for each season?
There seems to be almost universal hate for the new ladder maps too (except antiga), plus there are still statistical imbalances for a bunch of the other maps.
At the very least I would have liked to have seen a GSL map or 2 make its way in...
Poll: Do you want to see new ladder maps in Season 4?
Yes, I want to see new ladder maps each season replace old/imbalanced ones! (1574)
96%
No, the map pool is fine for another season. (66)
4%
1640 total votes
Your vote: Do you want to see new ladder maps in Season 4?
(Vote): Yes, I want to see new ladder maps each season replace old/imbalanced ones! (Vote): No, the map pool is fine for another season.
I don't really care since this was a shorter season, but hopefully they actually do use the community maps like they are supposedly planning to do with that TL map making contest.
I'd imagine it hasn't been long enough and the stats for the existing maps must be fairly unsettled, so they need more time before changing them. Of course, we have no problem telling that these maps are terrible but Blizzard has to use their special tools.
We're going to end up making our own ladders like back in BW, cuz blizz will eventually stop paying attention or caring about it. The fact that they still have bad maps on the ladder, they dont make new GOOD maps to replace them its a huge sign of that, they dont even replace them for blizzcon .
.... so... what's the point? I thought the whole point to having these "new/updated" seasons was so they could make changes like map pool more frequently...
Khaydarin depths was a joke of a map. Whoever made that map must have been very drunk and confused. Not only is expanding to the natural near impossible (unless you break the gold to take it), your logical third is like half a screen away from their logical third.
If they're to lazy to make their own maps, why dont they just take some of the great community maps out there...I dont understand whats so hard about that.
Very sadface about this. I understand that this season was shorter and that they don't have a full grasp on how the maps have affected the play (they haven't decided what they wanna keep and what they want to trash), but I don't understand the rationale behind reducing the seasons to 2 months without keeping the same routine along with it. Even it if meant adding 1 map and removing another that's much better than allowing the ladder to grow stale.
I mean, the fact is they're NOT replacing ladder maps when SO MANY wonderful maps are being made by the community. I realize that the mapmaking competition is currently going on, which is a step in the right direction, but still... they should start replacing things NOW with some of the already accepted tournament maps.
I thought half the reason for shorter seasons was to have more map turnover. Between this and the BLizzcon map pool we can now be sure that Blizz doesn't listen to the communities opinions (not that we didn't already know this).
Really hope they decide to change the 1v1 pool some, variety is good especially when we have questionable maps in the pool already.
On October 20 2011 10:41 Nortac wrote: If they're to lazy to make their own maps, why dont they just take some of the great community maps out there...I dont understand whats so hard about that.
Couldn't agree more. Some of the amateur mapmakers have more talent than Blizzard employees.
I am so angry and so sad. Just horrible news. In my opinion, it's inexcusable to not add the PLETHORA of much better maps out there. Leaving travesties like Searing Crater? It's simply a joke.
i dont understand why they cant just like throw in daybreak or something like that.......................... seriously this makes me so angry that they're not changing the map pool
The new maps for season 3 were absolutely horrible. Nerazim and abyssal were just retarded.. and i still have no answer to why backwater is still in the mappool. Get some of the gsl maps in there?
Haha and people actually supported blizzard for shortening seasons, yay now we have less motivation to ladder and are stuck with bad maps for even longer
As long as the maps with statistical imbalance are still up voted, and maps that are of higher quality but the player may not like are down voted, blizzard will never think the maps suck just because the competitive market complains.
There are plenty of noobs out there who don't down vote these maps -> thats the source of the problem, don't blame blizzard, blame the ignorance of the common sc2 player.
It's like they want to make us angry with the season pools... GSL map the community likes? Go ahead and block the third. Community demands larger maps? Nope. Close positions causing problems? Remove maps with close positions rather than changing them. Promise to constantly keep map pool fresh... then this.
If I'm going to be playing ladder on sub-optimal maps, I'd at least like them to be interesting and ever-changing.
Clearly the new maps haven't been around for long enough to both weed out bad ones and come up with completely new ones. The 2v2 change is good even though that format will forever be a joke.
Always look forward to new maps in the pool when a new season is announced. Sucks there aren't any. Even if it would have only been blizz maps thats better than nothing
On October 20 2011 10:51 oOOoOphidian wrote: Clearly the new maps haven't been around for long enough to both weed out bad ones and come up with completely new ones. The 2v2 change is good even though that format will forever be a joke.
Yeah, but they should have removed The Ruins of Tarsonis. It's a joke map. However, 1vs1 has much higher priority.
I wish they would add more maps and get rid of some of the old ones too, but I think I am in the minority in that I do not think good tourney maps=good ladder maps. Definitely don't think they should just take the gsl mappool wholesale or anything like that. Some of those maps are really not that good.... (Dual Site, Bel'Shir, Crevasse would be awful on ladder. Well, they are just kind of bad in general)
I'd love to see some of the tourney ones though, like how they put in TalDarim. But seriously, they should add SOMETHING to the 1v1 map pool every season. Regardless.... not doing so is just sort of lazy.
Well this is shit. Good thing they announced it so close to the panel so we can shit on them for it.
We need hero's at the panel brining up all the stupid stuff they are doing and make them aware that we care even if they don't ;( Maybe we should start a list somewhere... yes.. A list of stuff to print out on overly large papers and give to blizzard.. + Show Spoiler [ Excellent] +
I have nothing against keeping old maps even though I hate them, as long as we don't have 50% of map pool consisting of stupid maps. I feel like I need 5 votes instead of 3 just to vote idiotic maps and have no choice when it comes to strategy/race advantage. I wish, I could understand their thought process behind this ...
We also wanted to focus on maps that start 2v2 teammates closer together at the beginning of a match.
Two bad news in one. No new 1:1 maps and then two possible shared base maps in the 2:2 pool. Not that the removed maps were any good and they should be removed but this shared base shit is going too far. They should add some of the 1:1 maps instead or well any map to make 2:2 like it was in BW. Every single 2:2 map is pretty much shared bases anyway.
And blizz should logically be sitting on stats for all maps and could just remove the one that seems to have the most blance issues or the least popular map and replace that with some good map from GSL or whatnot. Then every season replace the worst map again and again and before we know it we'll have a really good mappool.
I'm still waiting to read a TL post about how they replaced Backwater Gulch, Typhon Peaks, Searing Crater, Nerazim Crypt, and Abyssal Caverns as well as removing close spawns. That will be the day.
Also, why did they remove Tempest? Personally that was always one of my favorite 2v2 maps, and if the problem is expanding, then why on earth is High Orbit still in the pool? Is it even possible to expand on that map?
I really don't understand Blizzard; all their balance changes are clearly directed at the very highest level of play--nerfing Terran because Korean Terrans do the best, and consequently outside of GSL level play (including the rest of the world), Terrans do not do as well as Protoss or Zerg. But then, their map pool is all about gearing it more towards the lower level players, having "rush" maps and refusing to include tournament maps. Blizzard really needs to get their act together, as their changes to the game seem really inconsistent and everything they do to the game bothers me. The map pool started off terrible, got better, and has since done nothing but become worse and worse. Please, Blizzard, please do something right.
i dont mind them replacing the lousy maps with lousier ones. At least we get to play on some new maps. What's the point of having a new season without new maps.
On October 20 2011 10:51 oOOoOphidian wrote: Clearly the new maps haven't been around for long enough to both weed out bad ones and come up with completely new ones. The 2v2 change is good even though that format will forever be a joke.
Searing Crater, Backwater Gulch, and Abyssal Caverns are all BAD maps. That is not even a question. Plus, the fact that close spawns still exists is an atrocity. Antiga Shipyard on the other hand is a good map, hence why it has been adopted by tournaments. Please Blizzard, just look at the Prime map-makers, they're better at making maps then you are.
u are failing blizzard...failing when it comes to maps...some hours ago it was the maps for the blizzcon tournaments now this....wtf is wrong with u ppl there...?!!! just here the community and take their word for their map pool..or just take the gsl maps and be done with it....why couldnt daybreak replace xel naga..?2 player maps both of them and baybreak much more macro oriented and considerably more balanced...just reseting points doesnt really help ur point to make things fresher...!
Whats the point of a new season if we don't get new maps? I'm thinking they completely missed the correlation between how active everyone is in conjunction with new seasons. Rather than starting dead even with everyone what excited me was being able to play on new maps.
It's shit like this that makes me wish that Blizzard didn't crack down so hard on external ladders like ICCUp. Being out of touch with their most dedicated fans for the loss
Well consider that with new Blizz maps there's always the chance that they too will suck. The TL map-making contest ends next week, hopefully Blizzard incorporate a few of the maps from there in S5, we can tolerate 2 more months right?
Why are they getting rid of tempest!? I think it produces some of the best 2v2 matches. As for the reason, I don't see why teammates need to spawn in the same base for 2v2... :-\
Pathetic.....at the very least they could have taken out the pieces of shit like Searing Crater and Backwater out. Then added some GSL/MLG maps like Testbug, Crevasse, Dual Sight, Daybreak, Belshir Beach, Terminus etc.
There are so many good maps out there being made by mapmakers and blizzard wants nothing to do with them, really fucking sad. Another season where I am not looking forward to playing ladder.
On October 20 2011 11:03 The Final Boss wrote: I'm still waiting to read a TL post about how they replaced Backwater Gulch, Typhon Peaks, Searing Crater, Nerazim Crypt, and Abyssal Caverns as well as removing close spawns. That will be the day.
Also, why did they remove Tempest? Personally that was always one of my favorite 2v2 maps, and if the problem is expanding, then why on earth is High Orbit still in the pool? Is it even possible to expand on that map?
I'm with you on Tempest...but High Orbit is great too. I always have macro games on that map. Sure the expos are wonky, but the gold is relatively easy to take.
These retards at blizzard are actually mentally incompetent. there are so many easy changes they can make to battle.net, ladder, map pool but they simply refuse or are unable. It's a bit harsh but i don't think there is any other logical explanation at the moment for how terrible their decision making regarding multiplayer is. Anyone with a contrary opinion, please try and fill me in on why you think blizzard is succeeding in this regard.
Yay for the good old bad maps of season 3!!! Blizz are completly out of their mind right now... As a map maker and leader of the map making team LoS, I really don't understand why no change, maps from the community are way better than Blizz maps.
Oh well seems I will skip yet again a season cause of horrible map pool.
On October 20 2011 10:51 oOOoOphidian wrote: Clearly the new maps haven't been around for long enough to both weed out bad ones and come up with completely new ones. The 2v2 change is good even though that format will forever be a joke.
Searing Crater, Backwater Gulch, and Abyssal Caverns are all BAD maps. That is not even a question. Plus, the fact that close spawns still exists is an atrocity. Antiga Shipyard on the other hand is a good map, hence why it has been adopted by tournaments. Please Blizzard, just look at the Prime map-makers, they're better at making maps then you are.
Yes, Searing Crater and Backwater Gulch have clear problems that make it very hard to ever play a macro game on them. Abyssal Caverns has an awkwardly placed 3rd base and close positions, as well as quite bad close air positions and base to ramp distance - but then it's not much different from Metalopolis either. Antiga Shipyard has forced cross spawns for good reason in GSL and is by no means a balanced map - it's very hard to take a 4th base for any race except Terran who can easily take the gold with a PF in many cases. The close air/rotational imbalance causes many problems in the ladder version.
Other maps people complain about are actually quite good compared to older maps, for example Nerazim Crypt. That map has an obnoxious base to ramp distance and is by no means perfect, but it has sensible 3rd base locations even for close positions, which promotes macro quite a bit more than Shattered Temple.
Some maps only require modifications (or are old enough that they could be removed entirely), but some maps simply are not figured out yet and there are many uninformed opinions still due to the short time of play with them.
As people have said many times, the GSL maps are not all balanced or good. Daybreak is definitely one map that has potential and has less glaring problems than many ladder maps, but maps like Xel'Naga Fortress and Crevasse have many problems and players are not happy with those.
Also, it's worth noting that blizzard may have held off on creating new maps because they are holding a map making contest that will potentially decide part of a new map pool.
It should be just like Proleague/Starleagues where maps get rotated out as frequently as is reasonable. Doubt Blizzard will pick up on that fact, but it would make the ladder so much more exciting!
Why? just, why? Sometimes it seems like a few of their decisions were made by blindfolding them selves and shooting darts at a board labeled with several possible choices. When the shorter seasons were introduced, we were all excited because it meant a regularly changing map pool. New season comes around, no new maps. Why? Just why?
It'll take you an hour max, Blizzard, to argue with LSPrime/JackyPrime or whoever made Daybreak about where to put rocks on it. And, boom, we'll be able to take a veto off Searing Crater and put it on Xel'naga!
You can't change the maps too often, because it disguises imbalance. Even if the maps are of questionable quality, it's important to keep them for a while unless theyre downright broken. That way we can see new map specific strategies pop up, and better understand balance.
I've had macro TvZ games on searing crater (with me being the terran) without any problem - I think it's a good map in the sense that I can play an aggressive style if I want to, but I can also take bases with a slow push without the zerg flooding the entire map.
The third is moderately safe. The nat is siegeable, but you should take out the push before it gets to that point.
Not every map that requires you to make an army before you expand is bad. It is in fact the logical thing to do - the other races do it all the time.
Awww.....I got really excited when wolf posted that terminus was being preped up..but I guess we wont see it for another two months, atleast I dont know if blizz wants to make mid season ladder changes. Oh wait..wasnt tal darim added mid season?
I think with the shorter seasons it's going to be a lot harder to update the maps every season. Making new maps every time would most likely result in more imbalanced/unpopular maps than we have currently.
Although I wouldn't mind some new maps. Some of the ones this season kinda suck, but hey, map preferences.
I agree with every one but maybe they are all busy with Hots and making map for the beta ( I hope it will be release during the blizzcon) so they just don't do any 1v1 WoL map
I really love blizzard but am I the only one sort of hoping for an ICCUP so we can have reasonable season maps that don't only include their shit pool?
On October 20 2011 11:37 shadymmj wrote: I've had macro TvZ games on searing crater (with me being the terran) without any problem - I think it's a good map in the sense that I can play an aggressive style if I want to, but I can also take bases with a slow push without the zerg flooding the entire map.
The third is moderately safe. The nat is siegeable, but you should take out the push before it gets to that point.
Not every map that requires you to make an army before you expand is bad. It is in fact the logical thing to do - the other races do it all the time.
I play Terran, and the only maps worse than searing crater for imbalance were old Lost Temple with natural cliffs and Kulas Ravine. (Yes its as bad as slag pits). The little cliff structure in the natural is RETARDEDLY good for tank pushes against every race. and the third.... lol. That big cliff on which you can tank the third is so stupid in TvZ. In the spawn position where your third is close to their third they can't ever take it or you can just kill it for free. And in the other spot, if you ever clear up the muta count, you just do a huge drop on the cliff and can kill off their 3rd and 4th.... Add to the fact that it is a great map for Terran expanding and defending. Basically this map is free win TvZ AND TvP against someone who has not voted it down. In fact, it is so so blatantly bad that at any decent level if you get it, you know for almost 100% certain that they have some sort of cheese lined up for it.
I can understand not adding new maps, I mean just look at the quality of the "new" season 3 maps, 1 was decent whilst the rest were terrible.
Please blizzard, all i want is some map circulation every season, that'd do all of us some good(and can have us switching around vetos every now and then)
This really sucks. They are saying that they are making 2 month seasons because people are more active in the first weeks of a season, but they are neglecting the fact that much of this activity is fueled by the arrival of fresh new maps.
I could be wrong on this but wasn't Xel'naga and Shakuras added in the middle of S1. So maybe after the map making contest is over or enough people bring this up at Blizzcon they will patch in some new maps!
On October 20 2011 11:54 err wrote: Lol@ people who actually think Blizzard cares about the tiny SC2 user base.
Just curious what your numbers are for "tiny" user base that still sees adverts after a year. Compared to WoW? Your absolutely right! Do WoW players make other people watch them at massive events online or offline? No!
Not ripping on wow because it will always have a spot in my cockles but I just want to know where sc2 is tiny in relation to blizzards other user-bases.
Well to be fair, with their shorter seasons we could see the map pool change only every other season and we'd still be getting updates to the map pool more frequently than we got in the past.
I'm not too concerned about this. The only maps that really suck in the current map pool imo are Backwater Gulch and Searing Crater and I have both of those vetoed already.
I'd love to see Xel'Naga Caverns and Typhon Peaks replaced with something more fresh, but that isn't something I'm going to be outraged about having to wait for.
On October 20 2011 11:54 err wrote: Lol@ people who actually think Blizzard cares about the tiny SC2 user base.
Just curious what your numbers are for "tiny" user base that still sees adverts after a year. Compared to WoW? Your absolutely right! Do WoW players make other people watch them at massive events online or offline? No!
Not ripping on wow because it will always have a spot in my cockles but I just want to know where sc2 is tiny in relation to blizzards other user-bases.
The tiny user base is also making blizzard money from all the tournaments that top 5k in prices
I'm not really surprised, if they were changing the map pool it seems like a PTR or something would have showed up by now. But hearing it still sucks, haha. Shorter seasons doesn't even matter now unless you were near a promotion when the ladder locked or if you're dumb to think that division rank matters at all.
Seriously, who thought that anything else would happen? Okay, I expected one or two new shitty maps from Blizzard but that's about it. Since release Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are so incompetent at making or implementing good maps that this should be no surprise to anyone. If you expected anything different it's your own fault.
Sometimes I wonder how the game would look like if the community had a hand in balancing and designing the races...
On October 20 2011 12:05 Shorty90 wrote: Seriously, who thought that anything else would happen? Okay, I expected one or two new shitty maps from Blizzard but that's about it. Since release Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are so incompetent at making or implementing good maps that this should be no surprise to anyone. If you expected anything different it's your own fault.
Sometimes I wonder how the game would look like if the community had a hand in balancing and designing the races...
Total shit, you need a selected few who actually knows what they are doing. Imagine for once that all the changes that the bnet forums want went through. Yea. All we can do is to make suggestions on what is imbalanced and then hope they find a good solution imho, which is kinda what is happening now. Except they are only listening once in a while, they also seem to care about silly things like casual players :/
Blizzard should just swallow their pride and copy the GSL map pool for every season. Newbies won't mind because they'll play whatever map that shows up, and everyone that are competitive or enjoy watching competitive games will be much happier.
Then GSL can cooperate with map makers to make good maps that will be used globally and everyone can practice on ladder, and everyone lives happily ever after.
im so disappointed and frustrated with blizzard and there maps sigh.. they are so fuckin stubborn refusing to remove close pos on shattered temp, and the many other bull shit things with the maps i could name more but i think u all know what im talking about, that is just an example, if blizzard would just use the mlg maps and like add a couple original ones of there own i would be very happy with that or like a few mlg maps, a few gsl maps and a couple of there own, and when i say mlg i mean no close positions and supply depots at the bottum of ramp to prevent gayness. I mean litterally as a zerg player i will lose a game on ladder then get like 2 bunkered walled by a terran, lose that game and then outta no where happen to get shat temp next and spawn close pos and at that point im ready to slam my head into my keyboard repeatedly till i pass out and wake up and the game just be over, while i look down and see blood near my rectum from the close position rape i just received.
On October 20 2011 11:54 err wrote: Lol@ people who actually think Blizzard cares about the tiny SC2 user base.
Just curious what your numbers are for "tiny" user base that still sees adverts after a year. Compared to WoW? Your absolutely right! Do WoW players make other people watch them at massive events online or offline? No!
Not ripping on wow because it will always have a spot in my cockles but I just want to know where sc2 is tiny in relation to blizzards other user-bases.
out of 750,000 on bnet, there are 13,000 sc2 games WORLD WIDE.
lets say each game has on average 4 people in it (1v1 more popular, team games not as popular)
that means ~52,000 people worldwide playing sc2. (most americans are home from work right now, 8pm on west coast)
This is dumb, the sole reason they stated for having these shorter seasons was because activity on battle.net was higher towards the beginning of the season, and this was only because there were new maps in the 1v1 pool.
On October 20 2011 12:05 Shorty90 wrote: Seriously, who thought that anything else would happen? Okay, I expected one or two new shitty maps from Blizzard but that's about it. Since release Blizzard has shown time and time again that they are so incompetent at making or implementing good maps that this should be no surprise to anyone. If you expected anything different it's your own fault.
Sometimes I wonder how the game would look like if the community had a hand in balancing and designing the races...
Total shit, you need a selected few who actually knows what they are doing. Imagine for once that all the changes that the bnet forums want went through. Yea. All we can do is to make suggestions on what is imbalanced and then hope they find a good solution imho, which is kinda what is happening now. Except they are only listening once in a while, they also seem to care about silly things like casual players :/
EDIT: Lol'd at the poster below
I explained that not very good sorry. I meant that a select few who actually know the game should work with blizzard on this. Pretty much like the gsl does it at the moment. They have a few hand picked mapmakers from the community and have them make awesome and balanced maps.
I don't want new blizzard maps, so that's fine (almost every single one so far has been utter trash, I don't need more vetoes), I want them to start finally putting community maps in there FFS! Season 2 they added tal'darim, then from there they just decided never to do it again?
Fuck you blizzard/activision, your maps are utter shit and I'm tired of you shitting on our map pool. Put some community maps in there FFS. Your stupid argument of "we want ladder maps to be separate from tournament maps" doesn't work when you use your own dumb, imbalanced, terrible ladder maps in your own blizzcon tournaments.
I'm so god damn sick of them 100% ignoring community concerns and just doing whatever the fuck they feel like doing.
We also wanted to focus on maps that start 2v2 teammates closer together at the beginning of a match.
Ohh blizzard why why, you should be going in the opposite direction. I just pray that one day we will get 1 maps with totally separate mains and that even have random spawn positions and then everyone might see the light of a good 2v2 match.
On October 20 2011 11:54 err wrote: Lol@ people who actually think Blizzard cares about the tiny SC2 user base.
Just curious what your numbers are for "tiny" user base that still sees adverts after a year. Compared to WoW? Your absolutely right! Do WoW players make other people watch them at massive events online or offline? No!
Not ripping on wow because it will always have a spot in my cockles but I just want to know where sc2 is tiny in relation to blizzards other user-bases.
Probably pretty tiny, considering WoW is probably far-and-away the highest-grossing game of all time.
On October 20 2011 12:19 -orb- wrote: I don't want new blizzard maps, so that's fine (almost every single one so far has been utter trash, I don't need more vetoes), I want them to start finally putting community maps in there FFS! Season 2 they added tal'darim, then from there they just decided never to do it again?
Fuck you blizzard/activision, your maps are utter shit and I'm tired of you shitting on our map pool. Put some community maps in there FFS. Your stupid argument of "we want ladder maps to be separate from tournament maps" doesn't work when you use your own dumb, imbalanced, terrible ladder maps in your own blizzcon tournaments.
I'm so god damn sick of them 100% ignoring community concerns and just doing whatever the fuck they feel like doing.
/rant
maybe when they hire more esports management staff they will learn something. Until then I'm a sad sad zealot
This is at least disapointing. Can't you guys from US just flood their forums with complaining at least (they never gave a shit about what was written on EU forums)?
On October 20 2011 12:16 HatchetWound wrote: im so disappointed and frustrated with blizzard and there maps sigh.. they are so fuckin stubborn refusing to remove close pos on shattered temp, and the many other bull shit things with the maps i could name more but i think u all know what im talking about, that is just an example, if blizzard would just use the mlg maps and like add a couple original ones of there own i would be very happy with that or like a few mlg maps, a few gsl maps and a couple of there own, and when i say mlg i mean no close positions and supply depots at the bottum of ramp to prevent gayness. I mean litterally as a zerg player i will lose a game on ladder then get like 2 bunkered walled by a terran, lose that game and then outta no where happen to get shat temp next and spawn close pos and at that point im ready to slam my head into my keyboard repeatedly till i pass out and wake up and the game just be over, while i look down and see blood near my rectum from the close position rape i just received.
I've often wondered about this myself. Not about the close positions, but why zergs haven't developed specific builds to deal with these spawns. For example, I remember when Idra would play on steppes of war, he would do this really cool creep spread/spine crawler push. As his creep started approaching his opponent he would start pumping hydras. Do you just try to play standard when you get close on shattered or do you use special tactics?
About the maps though, I really do want them to change. Blizzard is way too stubborn about this and their map makers are TERRIBLE. Just look at the 2v2 3v3 4v4 maps, ANYONE with a basic understanding of the game could do far better IMO.
On October 20 2011 12:19 -orb- wrote: I don't want new blizzard maps, so that's fine (almost every single one so far has been utter trash, I don't need more vetoes), I want them to start finally putting community maps in there FFS! Season 2 they added tal'darim, then from there they just decided never to do it again?
Fuck you blizzard/activision, your maps are utter shit and I'm tired of you shitting on our map pool. Put some community maps in there FFS. Your stupid argument of "we want ladder maps to be separate from tournament maps" doesn't work when you use your own dumb, imbalanced, terrible ladder maps in your own blizzcon tournaments.
I'm so god damn sick of them 100% ignoring community concerns and just doing whatever the fuck they feel like doing.
/rant
Quoting this for truth. Blizzard claims to support tournaments and then does stupid shit like this, it doesn't make sense.
My honest guess is we don't get any new maps because of the expansion upcoming and that's where the resources are going to. Probably desperately trying to balance new maps for release.
On October 20 2011 12:23 Grampz wrote: GOD DAMNIT! HOW how How HoW hOw whY wHy WhY wHy...so many questions...but none will ever be answered...DAMN YOU BLIZZ! =/
Maybe we'll get a, or even several, people with some balls to ask these questions to Blizzard at the HotS Multiplayer panel. Hey, you can always hope
On October 20 2011 12:26 Achilles306 wrote: Any word on upping the number of vetos to 5? I could really use 5 vetos for 1v1 ladder. Actually make it 6.
On October 20 2011 12:16 HatchetWound wrote:I've often wondered about this myself. Not about the close positions, but why zergs haven't developed specific builds to deal with these spawns. For example, I remember when Idra would play on steppes of war, he would do this really cool creep spread/spine crawler push. As his creep started approaching his opponent he would start pumping hydras. Do you just try to play standard when you get close on shattered or do you use special tactics?
It's because those don't actually work, particularly when your opponent is playing carefully. People do try them on ladder, and sometimes they catch people off guard and you get a lucky win. Other times they make 1 bunker/tank/banshee and you lose. Protoss also complain about close positions against zerg and against terran because they're essentially forced to all-in too.
On October 20 2011 12:26 Achilles306 wrote: Any word on upping the number of vetos to 5? I could really use 5 vetos for 1v1 ladder. Actually make it 6.
On October 20 2011 12:35 Dexington wrote: What's that fire map they have right now in 1v1? I played that for the first time and it is the worst map ever.
On October 20 2011 10:35 ToguRo wrote: seems like every post in the thread is disappointed ... I guess all we can do is to ask Blizz to reconsider in the bnet thread
edit: maybe we need a hero at blizzcon to do something godlike like this guy and save the ladder
Why no replay sharing support, or co-viewing support (like in BW)? Why is your 1v1 map pool so terrible and you are so stubborn about it? (and team map pool atrocious) Why no clan support? Why do you lock the ladders? Why no tournament support in Bnet 2.0? (like having brackets, and automation to run tourneys over bnet) Will there be more balance patches pre hots? Have you ever considered using maps to balance the game (like pro BW) ? You always talk about how much data you collect from Bnet, will we ever have access to our own data, like win/loss ratios for specific maps, and races? Do you think every race will feel complete after HOTS is released? Will you ever release racial win rate data for just GM league in each region? What is more important in your decision making for patches, bronze through masters or GM and pro tourneys?
I know I'd love to hear their answers to these questions.
On October 20 2011 12:26 Achilles306 wrote: Any word on upping the number of vetos to 5? I could really use 5 vetos for 1v1 ladder. Actually make it 6.
What is your logi/resoning behind this>
I can see why, so you don't have to choose the lesser evils of all of the terrible maps to play on. If I could, I would only play on Shakuras, Antiga Shipyard, Tal'Darim and Shattered Temple (cross positions only) if I'm only offered the ladder maps (I would take maps like Daybreak over all of those). But because of 3 votes (2 are already dedicated to Searing Crater, which is a terrible map, and Abyssal Caverns, which I hate), I have to choose between playing on Typhon Peaks(terrible map), Backwater Gulch (also Terrible), and Nerazim Crypt (not the worst, but still annoying to play because of how small it is). I've never had an enjoyable game on Typhon Peaks, especially as Zerg because of how confined the spaces are on that map.
I hope they at least get rid of close positions on Shattered Temple, because I really don't want to veto that map because cross positions is so fun, but it can be so frustrating when you are playing a Terran who can leapfrog his siege tanks from his base to yours safely before the 10 minute mark. I just roach/ling all in if I get close positions now (and it works because most Terrans I play go blind reactored hellions without even scouting me and just die).
On October 20 2011 12:19 -orb- wrote: I don't want new blizzard maps, so that's fine (almost every single one so far has been utter trash, I don't need more vetoes), I want them to start finally putting community maps in there FFS! Season 2 they added tal'darim, then from there they just decided never to do it again?
Fuck you blizzard/activision, your maps are utter shit and I'm tired of you shitting on our map pool. Put some community maps in there FFS. Your stupid argument of "we want ladder maps to be separate from tournament maps" doesn't work when you use your own dumb, imbalanced, terrible ladder maps in your own blizzcon tournaments.
I'm so god damn sick of them 100% ignoring community concerns and just doing whatever the fuck they feel like doing.
/rant
Quoting this for truth. Blizzard claims to support tournaments and then does stupid shit like this, it doesn't make sense.
My honest guess is we don't get any new maps because of the expansion upcoming and that's where the resources are going to. Probably desperately trying to balance new maps for release.
Not enough manpower to make new maps would be my guess as well, but that just makes blizzard's chokehold on controlling the ladder system even worse. It's bad enough that they void community mapmakers' efforts by not allowing the maps made to be usable in a ladder, but they also don't have the resources or competence to push out anything other than the most generic crap maps as well.
Just today I was watching the korean weekly and katrina AE came up as a map choice, and my first thought was "gee, that looks like it'd be an interesting pvz map to play on", but the thought of getting used to it in customs seemed pointless; it's not like I'd ever play anything like that on the ladder.
On October 20 2011 12:26 Achilles306 wrote: Any word on upping the number of vetos to 5? I could really use 5 vetos for 1v1 ladder. Actually make it 6.
On October 20 2011 12:35 Dexington wrote: What's that fire map they have right now in 1v1? I played that for the first time and it is the worst map ever.
I'm kinda seeing a common theme with these maps. What I wonder is when did their map makers decide 1. Naturals shouldn't have chokes 2. Third bases should always be on the low ground and be easy to harass from high ground 3. Destructible rocks and Xelnaga towers are a must 4. You should always have to expand towards your opponent.
Do any of these things promote expanding sooner or out expanding your opponent?
I think blizzards strategy is just to make stupid decision after stupid decision, so that our expectations as a community can't possibly be any lower. That way, we can't ever be disappointed.
If that's their plan, then this is a step in the right direction.
Blizz is using its SC2 coders to work on the expansions, so no more free maps for you until that comes out. Why would they want to give you freebies when they have a whole new, 60 dollar product to buy?
On October 20 2011 12:59 Sub40APM wrote: Blizz is using its SC2 coders to work on the expansions, so no more free maps for you until that comes out. Why would they want to give you freebies when they have a whole new, 60 dollar product to buy?
They got map makers doing maps I'm sure (however bad at balance they might be). The expansion isn't going to be full retail, probably 40.
On October 20 2011 12:59 Sub40APM wrote: Blizz is using its SC2 coders to work on the expansions, so no more free maps for you until that comes out. Why would they want to give you freebies when they have a whole new, 60 dollar product to buy?
They got map makers doing maps I'm sure (however bad at balance they might be). The expansion isn't going to be full retail, probably 40.
There is now way they could possibly have a full time map maker. What would he do for the 99% of the time that he clearly isnt making maps?
On October 20 2011 12:59 Sub40APM wrote: Blizz is using its SC2 coders to work on the expansions, so no more free maps for you until that comes out. Why would they want to give you freebies when they have a whole new, 60 dollar product to buy?
They got map makers doing maps I'm sure (however bad at balance they might be). The expansion isn't going to be full retail, probably 40.
There is now way they could possibly have a full time map maker. What would he do for the 99% of the time that he clearly isnt making maps?
Are the new maps from previous seasons even new maps? Or were they maps that blizzard had on release, that they just rotated in and out of the 'ladder' map pool?
I'm pretty disappointed that they don't seem to be adding anything / changing anything around this season. I thought that was one of the points of shorter seasons (though i know the shorter seasons haven't happened yet, they're coming into effect next season).
please change the maps more often! it's onyl 2 months T_T
On October 20 2011 12:55 Meteora.GB wrote: You would think that Blizzard would figure out that they need to rotate in new maps each season, even if it was only one new map.
The sluggish implementation of features for SC2 makes me wonder about how large the staff really is for the game.
Blizzard's progamming teams are actually really small relative to other companies. Quality over quantity I guess?
Edit: Nvm Blizzard is actually about the size of activision now o.o but idk how many of them are actually working on sc2
On October 20 2011 12:55 Meteora.GB wrote: You would think that Blizzard would figure out that they need to rotate in new maps each season, even if it was only one new map.
The sluggish implementation of features for SC2 makes me wonder about how large the staff really is for the game.
Blizzard's progamming teams are actually really small relative to other companies. Quality over quantity I guess?
Edit: Nvm Blizzard is actually about the size of activision now o.o but idk how many of them are actually working on sc2
On October 20 2011 13:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Ugh! at least change 1 map!
please change the maps more often! it's onyl 2 months T_T
On October 20 2011 12:55 Meteora.GB wrote: You would think that Blizzard would figure out that they need to rotate in new maps each season, even if it was only one new map.
The sluggish implementation of features for SC2 makes me wonder about how large the staff really is for the game.
Blizzard's progamming teams are actually really small relative to other companies. Quality over quantity I guess?
Edit: Nvm Blizzard is actually about the size of activision now o.o but idk how many of them are actually working on sc2
No, barely anyone is working on Sc2 it would seem, things are moving way to slow for it to be a sizeable number.
I kinda hope that the "no new maps" announcement shows that they are focusing on HotS upcoming beta
im talking about the individual "parts" of the activision-blizzard partnership, since "Blizzard entertainment" and activision exist, or at least to refer to just that specific section ( according to wiki )
There is absolutely no good reason to continue ignoring the community maps this time around. I could understand if they wanted to use their own, but they're not even changing the fucking things.
On October 20 2011 13:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Ugh! at least change 1 map!
please change the maps more often! it's onyl 2 months T_T
On October 20 2011 12:55 Meteora.GB wrote: You would think that Blizzard would figure out that they need to rotate in new maps each season, even if it was only one new map.
The sluggish implementation of features for SC2 makes me wonder about how large the staff really is for the game.
Blizzard's progamming teams are actually really small relative to other companies. Quality over quantity I guess?
Edit: Nvm Blizzard is actually about the size of activision now o.o but idk how many of them are actually working on sc2
No, barely anyone is working on Sc2 it would seem, things are moving way to slow for it to be a sizeable number.
I kinda hope that the "no new maps" announcement shows that they are focusing on HotS upcoming beta
im talking about the individual "parts" of the activision-blizzard partnership, since "Blizzard entertainment" and activision exist, or at least to refer to just that specific section ( according to wiki )
Ah, ok I suspect they are in a bit of a deadline situation with Diablo 3, once that is out of the door we might see some light at the end of the tunnel "Q1 2012 T_T"
On October 20 2011 13:15 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Ugh! at least change 1 map!
please change the maps more often! it's onyl 2 months T_T
On October 20 2011 12:55 Meteora.GB wrote: You would think that Blizzard would figure out that they need to rotate in new maps each season, even if it was only one new map.
The sluggish implementation of features for SC2 makes me wonder about how large the staff really is for the game.
Blizzard's progamming teams are actually really small relative to other companies. Quality over quantity I guess?
Edit: Nvm Blizzard is actually about the size of activision now o.o but idk how many of them are actually working on sc2
No, barely anyone is working on Sc2 it would seem, things are moving way to slow for it to be a sizeable number.
I kinda hope that the "no new maps" announcement shows that they are focusing on HotS upcoming beta
im talking about the individual "parts" of the activision-blizzard partnership, since "Blizzard entertainment" and activision exist, or at least to refer to just that specific section ( according to wiki )
Ah, ok I suspect they are in a bit of a deadline situation with Diablo 3, once that is out of the door we might see some light at the end of the tunnel "Q1 2012 T_T"
haha yea
tbh it seems like there's so little activity in sc2 they might only have 5 people working (dustin, david kim, Matt cooper, the third balance tester i forgot the name of that but isn't nearly as well known, and 1 programmer)
balance team has to share work with making maps, dustin has to direct, 1 progammer has to improve/fix/update Bnet 2.0 xD
On October 20 2011 13:20 NoobStyles wrote: SC2 will be so fun when someone figures out how to create custom Bnet 2.0 servers. Well probably get LAN at the same time to.
Seems pretty counter intuitive to say that they want to make the seasons shorter to keep ladder exciting but then they're not going to change anything. O well. Hoping that all off blizzcon gets cross spawn ^_^
With the cutting of metal last season I was sure Xelnaga was not going to last to much longer. Its a real shame that this map is still stagnating the map pool with so many better options out there.
On October 20 2011 10:35 ToguRo wrote: seems like every post in the thread is disappointed ... I guess all we can do is to ask Blizz to reconsider in the bnet thread
edit: maybe we need a hero at blizzcon to do something godlike like this guy and save the ladder
The older maps need to be replaced, not necessarily because they're bad maps but - as they've even conceded - to keep the game fresh. Shakuras Plateau, Xel'Naga Caverns & Shattered Temple need to be replaced. But personally I would also like to see Backwater Gulch, Typhon Peaks & Searing Crater (dear god why is this map still in the pool) replaced purely because they aren't good maps. Backwater for having too many chokes which favour Terran & hinder Zerg, and Typhon because it's not very interesting with too strong a defenders advantage for the 3rd expansion, games too often result in turtling and blah mass battles in the center because the rest of the map is unfavourable for engagements.
I thought the purpose of the shorter seasons was not only to make people play more but to be able to balance the ladder, but nope, why replace maps when you have a giant pool of fantastic community-made maps on TL. Hell, they could've just searched "gsl" on their own custom game function lolololol.
Why cut the season to 2 months if they have no plans to introduce any new 1v1 maps? I mean really? Is it just solely to keep the GM ladder fresh? Really poor choice by blizzard. Hopefully this will be better explained at blizzcon.
Remove taldarim and searing crater. They are definetly the worst maps ever created; one is gigantic, and the other is retardely small. I actually like the new season 3 maps they added in, because they are all IMO the best size; not too small, and not too big.
honestly this is really stupid, they say they make seasons cus they notice more people play at the start? i hope that's not their only reason, cus anyone will know that if you make the seasons shorter, less people will play in the first couple weeks than in the first couple weeks of a much longer season
and the other reason is that there's new maps and shit... they don't play at the start of a new season just for the lulz of it >.>
Blizzard does not cease to disappoint. I cannot believe they still try to force their maps upon us while all tournament use a completely different map pool, what company does that?
It just doesn't make any sense at all. Totally Yes on the poll, it's the chance to see new maps and stuff but it seems that ain't going to happen with seasons being every 2 months.
On October 20 2011 14:16 kofman wrote: Remove taldarim and searing crater. They are definetly the worst maps ever created; one is gigantic, and the other is retardely small. I actually like the new season 3 maps they added in, because they are all IMO the best size; not too small, and not too big.
The fact that TDA is big is why it's a good map. 90% of sc2 games ending on 2-3 bases is boring.
On October 20 2011 13:29 Endymion wrote: anyone remember the dozens of AWESOME maps on iccup? yeah, now we have like 7 terrible maps on sc2..
ya i been kinda itching to go back to BW purely because of the great maps over there. especially the team maps and 8man FFA maps. good times, good times....
Put some gsl maps in. Or at the least get some map designers who actually understand the game. Some of the blizzard maps are just horrid. Searing crater(?) is just badddddddddddd.
it just feels like blizzard doesn't care anymore, maybe they are focusing to hots and other games but ffs wouldn't be that hard to hire few community map makers or korean ones to make some balanced maps for the ladder. Makes me sad;8
Any time any pro has been asked about this topic they all say the maps need to be changed. Seriously, wtf is Blizzard thinking doing this kinda stuff and constantly showing us they don't pay enough attention to what the sc2 pros think???
I played a TvZ on close position Shattered Temple and I just sieged up at his nat and he was dead. Granted he wasn't that good but I don't see him breaking out of that position even if he was a league above me.
The map itself, I like. Close positions, however, make for such awkward games. I don't mind having rush maps, but ambiguous maps that you only 1/3 want to veto are just unpleasant.
On October 20 2011 15:01 Mobius_1 wrote: I played a TvZ on close position Shattered Temple and I just sieged up at his nat and he was dead. Granted he wasn't that good but I don't see him breaking out of that position even if he was a league above me.
The map itself, I like. Close positions, however, make for such awkward games. I don't mind having rush maps, but ambiguous maps that you only 1/3 want to veto are just unpleasant.
I agree with you but i'd rather play steppes of war than close positions shattered temple. Because at least you know its going to be a short distance to the other persons base and there is most likely going to be a rush. With close positions on a map it's just stupid. The map could be a very good map close air / cross positions but close positions its bad.
On October 20 2011 10:35 ToguRo wrote: seems like every post in the thread is disappointed ... I guess all we can do is to ask Blizz to reconsider in the bnet thread
edit: maybe we need a hero at blizzcon to do something godlike like this guy and save the ladder
In response from the players we have removed all cross map spawns and every map will now be close spawns. Also we have decided to remove Tal'Darim Altar alter as this made bronze league players have to macro.
Seriously though they talk big on e-sports, but they take steps to make ladder a joke. No pro trains mostly on ladder unless they have to.
The point for shorter seasons I thought was to keep it fresh with new maps. I don't understand Blizzard, how does a new season with the exact same map pool increase the number of players?
On October 20 2011 10:35 ToguRo wrote: seems like every post in the thread is disappointed ... I guess all we can do is to ask Blizz to reconsider in the bnet thread
edit: maybe we need a hero at blizzcon to do something godlike like this guy and save the ladder
I'm pretty much satisfied with the current map pool. I got 3 vetos for the maps I don't like or the ones whose aren't be played in the tournaments. All good, Blizzard. I like it
On October 20 2011 10:35 ToguRo wrote: seems like every post in the thread is disappointed ... I guess all we can do is to ask Blizz to reconsider in the bnet thread
edit: maybe we need a hero at blizzcon to do something godlike like this guy and save the ladder
I imagine people would whine about the new map-pool too, but it would probably be deserved, considering it seems they make consistently mediocre/bad maps and just say "Oh those are ladder maps, not intended for tournaments!" then they use one of them in their Blizzcon tourney >,<
Uh, Anyway, guess this is kind of bad. I'd rather have a fresh map-pool every season too.
I wouldn't be so disappointed if the maps were actually good ones. As it is right now, most of the maps is rather horrible. It would be better if they just used GSL/ICCup maps, they have the quality. Blizzard is shitty.
Meh, it's like in WoW: Cataclysm where Blizzard has just gotten lazy and know people will buy their product regardless of effort put in. Maybe it's Activision pulling the reigns (after all, they work together and share the same philosophies it looks like).
The lack of support isn't surprising at all. It's not just Blizzard either, Bioware has also begun to degrade. ID has been going downhill for a long time now. PC devs aside from Valve (who hasn't put out that much either this generation but still quality stuff) have been going downhill this gen. Blizzard feels like just another average developer honestly. You just don't get the same amount of care or content in the games that you used to. WoW is marketed to every possible thing that can breathe now and SC2 isn't being worked on because they want to rush an expansion out as quickly as possible to gain sales....as quickly as possible. Guitar hero/CoD style.
Not a fan of Blizzard anymore . That's how I've felt since WoTLK.
For their excuse Blizzard is running full steam ahead with HotS nearing completion, Diablo 3 in beta and a WoW expansion that needs to save that game from the **** that was Cataclysm plus Titan and Blizzcon.
I know i know, excuses, but you cant deny that this is their biggest year in that they will release 2 expansions and 1 new game (Diablo 3).
I rather they focus on HotS instead of the current game, balance or maps
wow WHO GIVES A FUCK about 2v2 maps. shit is all 1 base cheese for like 20 minutes anyways. Blizzard, just give those guys zero clutter nr20 for the map pool. problem solved. now go incorporate already existing GSL maps plz.
On October 20 2011 10:48 Holcan wrote: As long as the maps with statistical imbalance are still up voted, and maps that are of higher quality but the player may not like are down voted, blizzard will never think the maps suck just because the competitive market complains.
There are plenty of noobs out there who don't down vote these maps -> thats the source of the problem, don't blame blizzard, blame the ignorance of the common sc2 player.
The competitive scene already uses different maps, and the 99% of ladder is made of "common sc2 players" which are in return who buy the game and keep blizzard making profit so Blizzard won't change maps just to please the 1% of hardcore competitive amateur gamers in b.net
I'm happy with the current maps, as zerg i have veto on searing, backwater and thypoon peaks, just because I don't like playing on them (too many chokes) but Nerazim and abyssal are good for me.
On October 20 2011 16:09 Deadlyhazard wrote: Meh, it's like in WoW: Cataclysm where Blizzard has just gotten lazy and know people will buy their product regardless of effort put in. Maybe it's Activision pulling the reigns (after all, they work together and share the same philosophies it looks like).
The lack of support isn't surprising at all. It's not just Blizzard either, Bioware has also begun to degrade. ID has been going downhill for a long time now. PC devs aside from Valve (who hasn't put out that much either this generation but still quality stuff) have been going downhill this gen. Blizzard feels like just another average developer honestly. You just don't get the same amount of care or content in the games that you used to. WoW is marketed to every possible thing that can breathe now and SC2 isn't being worked on because they want to rush an expansion out as quickly as possible to gain sales....as quickly as possible. Guitar hero/CoD style.
Not a fan of Blizzard anymore . That's how I've felt since WoTLK.
Relic anyone? their WH40k games are pretty awesome.
Wow, didn't Blizzard get some partnership recently with the people formerly known as iCCup? I hoped that they would be able to bring in some better maps with their mapmaking talent.
The good news is that I don't have to veto any new maps. Backwater Gulch, Searing Crater, Abyssal Caverns, I shall never play you.
Yeah, makes absolutely no sense. I hope they improve how custom games work greatly with the expansion. They have said that customs are the tool for the highest level practice, not ladder, because they want to keep ladder equally competitive at all levels when it comes to maps. This doesn't make any sense, they created this elaborate system to differentiate players by skill and match them up against people close to them and they seem to have abandoned it. YET they keep quoting statistics for balance from the highest ladder leagues, which as thy said is not meant to be really that good for practice and is not really competitive(except in some hidden fashion for some blizz invitationals). On another note, who fucking benefits from bad maps and bad spawns on maps. How is that better for the lower leagues is beyond me.
what i dont understand is that they dont have to even make the maps themselves... they can take maps from iccup / esv or from the gsl. Boggles the mind
On October 20 2011 10:48 Holcan wrote: As long as the maps with statistical imbalance are still up voted, and maps that are of higher quality but the player may not like are down voted, blizzard will never think the maps suck just because the competitive market complains.
There are plenty of noobs out there who don't down vote these maps -> thats the source of the problem, don't blame blizzard, blame the ignorance of the common sc2 player.
The competitive scene already uses different maps, and the 99% of ladder is made of "common sc2 players" which are in return who buy the game and keep blizzard making profit so Blizzard won't change maps just to please the 1% of hardcore competitive amateur gamers in b.net
I'm happy with the current maps, as zerg i have veto on searing, backwater and thypoon peaks, just because I don't like playing on them (too many chokes) but Nerazim and abyssal are good for me.
On October 20 2011 16:09 Deadlyhazard wrote: Meh, it's like in WoW: Cataclysm where Blizzard has just gotten lazy and know people will buy their product regardless of effort put in. Maybe it's Activision pulling the reigns (after all, they work together and share the same philosophies it looks like).
The lack of support isn't surprising at all. It's not just Blizzard either, Bioware has also begun to degrade. ID has been going downhill for a long time now. PC devs aside from Valve (who hasn't put out that much either this generation but still quality stuff) have been going downhill this gen. Blizzard feels like just another average developer honestly. You just don't get the same amount of care or content in the games that you used to. WoW is marketed to every possible thing that can breathe now and SC2 isn't being worked on because they want to rush an expansion out as quickly as possible to gain sales....as quickly as possible. Guitar hero/CoD style.
Not a fan of Blizzard anymore . That's how I've felt since WoTLK.
Relic anyone? their WH40k games are pretty awesome.
Happy that Tempest is gone. Was really hard to secure a 3rd as Terran or Protoss. There were also some cheesy places to put siege tanks so Zergs probably hated that map as well.
I liked Khaydarin Depths though. Use a couple of Reapers to break the Gold rocks. Then have your ally expand there while you harassed with the Reapers. A gimicky strategy but a fun one all the same.
But definately having no new maps for 1vs1 is sad. I don't understand why Blizzard seems to be so against using community made maps. :/
Very pleased with Blizzard's decision not to mess with the map pool, the ladder is extremely balanced and fun to play on, excepting searing crater, abyssal caverns, nerazim crypt, typhon peaks and backwater gulch, but thats all!!
i really just cannot understand this, even david kim is GM he must understand right? maybe it's just browder or some bureaucratic issues that are making things inefficient
i mean it must be really easy to just get on, switch taldarim with daybreak, switch out some of the maps (hell keep searing crater if u want, just switch out xel'naga and/or backwater and/or shattered with some new maps or even just put metal/DO back in...)
On October 20 2011 17:35 Scorch wrote: Where can I find pictures of the new 2v2 maps? As mainly a 2v2 player, I'm sad to see two of the few decent maps go. The new ones better be good.
tempest was a cool map but khaydarin depths was terrible. the naturals are impossible to defend, especially vs ZZ
Looks like nobody at Blizzard has been watching GSL or MLG... I only play 1v1 on ladder, and whenever I watch tournament streams I rarely see a map I actually have played on. Blizzard... hint hint?
I mean really, I am actually getting quite frustrated with how they are handling this game. I never played SCBW before SC2 came out, so I can't really say how that experience was, but I played WoW since 2005 and they never pulled this type of shit where they would not update the game and change things that were obviously bad for pretty much the majority of players. I don't think saying they don't want to have maps that are good for multiple bases because of the casual population that plays this game are not competitive and therefore do not want good maps is an actual reason for not having these maps implemented (that probably sounded bad but I'm tired and fuck it). If more and more people (like me) who play this game casually aren't even enjoying it because of the fucked maps, then what the hell are they actually trying to do? The game isn't enjoyable when I see tal'darim and say "oh, well, I guess I have to 4 gate now since it's PvP"
This is really a really sad move by Blizzard. There are so much better maps that could be cycled out. Hopefully they will at least see this community reaction and grab some GSL maps or ICcup maps or something....
Having read through the comments I think a lot of people just like moaning :p
The fact they aren't adding new maps is probably because the season is so short, which might I add, everyone complained about.
As for the maps being "bad", they are all equally balanced because they are symetrical in one way or another which is the main thing a map needs to be. (especially if youve ever played AoM/AoE, and the hunts are just unfair.)
People asking why we need new 2v2 maps.. well, believe it or not people do play team games as well.
The fact that the ladder locks are apparently for 2 weeks of the 2 month season doesnt matter either cause MMR will still go up during ladder lock (?) Just cause your league says your are gold doesn't mean you are.
The PvP problem on tal'darim can maybe be fixed by going blink, not sure since last patch though ^^
Only problems I can see with the maps are the Random Wall at the natural on Searing Crater, and the Chasm in the natural of Backwater Gulch. They just seem out of place to me.
Blizzard are a joke, no wonder peole stop playing on battle.net after a while as they start getting lazy the further and further into the game..... even if they added more GSL or MLG maps...
Browder: "Well fuck, team. All of our new maps are 10x less popular than the old ones still in the pool. We just keep changing the new maps each round and we're starting to look stupid. What do we do?
Intern: "Well, sir, the map pool stagnates even if we change things, right? I mean, we've kept the same staples since release. What if we just... don't change anything?"
Browder: "By god, that's genius! We can save money and our balance guy's time and all we have to do is - stop doing things! Get to it! Welcome to the eSports division, kid!"
I say that the worst job Blizz is doing, is on the map pool. Some retard over there makes complete shit ass maps and we all hate them. Meanwhile we see the coolest maps on MLG, GSL, IPL, etc. etc.
We want to play the maps we see! How hard is that for Blizzard to understand??
Please, make a voting system where we can vote for the new mappool or something. Let the community handle this, the community OWNS Blizzard at making quality, fun, maps yet they are too stubborn/stupid (pick one/both) to acknowledge that fact.
Sigh.. guess that's another season of playing only a few games on ladder.
I would cry in joy if blizzard one day just decided to use GSL maps and only change them out when they did. That would be amazing but alas those days will never come :/.
DAMN Blizzard! Just screw your "We only use maps made by ourself..." shit and add Termninus/Daybreak to the Ladder and remove the "more rocks than expansions"-maps.
This exactly. And maybe a couple of other maps, like Bel'shir (the revied version). And there are so many other good maps out there, for example from Iccup.
This is the worst thing Blizzard could do at the moment. First Blizzcon maps suck, now they wont update the mappool for the next season? it really doesnt make sense.
They probably either have no time / people working on sc2 atm, or they don't care at all. I can't believe they don't want to change a single map. Maps like backwater gulch or Searing crater are just awful..
I don't care so much about the inbalance of the current map pool. I just want new maps, half the fun is about finding out all the quirks and nuances of maps. After about 100-150 matches with a map pool it gets boring so the coming season will just be a long wait until next season.
I think they will lose more and more players who only ladder, ie. dont have a team or friends to play 1v1 with.
mmm i wonder why there were no chances ... could it be Blizzcon that kept people busy. The Poll is funny though do you want the maps changed you don't like yes or no ? And of course it was pretty clear nothing would change because it was a short season.
Well I don't really care about the imbalances on ladder maps, because it's not like tournaments are going to use them if they're bad and ladder isn't being played very seriously, but I just like having new maps to play on. (The best solution would obviously be including a couple of GSL/iccup maps every season but new Blizz maps would be better than nothing.)
ALL the s3 new maps are horrible, blizz decides for the first time a season will have the same maps as the previous season. Blizzard being blizzard. Rofl.
Would've been nice to see maps like Xel'Naga Caverns, Typhoon Peaks, Backwater Gulch, Shattered Temple..............
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing every single map in the pool go. Then again, looking at Blizzard's track record, I somehow doubt they'll replace it with any better ones.
If I could have just one more veto. I'd be happy with the ladder pool. I play Typhoon Peaks but I find it impossible to beat protoss on. I really don't mind Shattered Temple, Xel'Naga Caverns, Antiga, Searing Caverns (not great, but usually leads to long macro games so it's fine) and erm I've forgotten what the other maps are. But I veto'd the ones where it's hard to take a third as I like macro games.
On October 20 2011 18:44 blackone wrote: Well I don't really care about the imbalances on ladder maps, because it's not like tournaments are going to use them if they're bad and ladder isn't being played very seriously, but I just like having new maps to play on. (The best solution would obviously be including a couple of GSL/iccup maps every season but new Blizz maps would be better than nothing.)
GSL crapmaps like Dual Sight are not better than the average Blizzard map actually :p
Imo the 2 best maps released since launch were a Blizzard map and a fixed Blizzard map (Shakuras and Metalopolis 1.1).
Just look at the stats of Metalopolis 1.1 in the international TLPD, it is impossible to get a map with more balanced win ratios. It even looks good in the Korean version if you consider that the TvP ratio is skewed by lots of 1-1-1 at the time where Toss just died by scouting it.
Switch Searing Crater with Metalopolis 1.1 and I'm happy:p
I feel like Blizzard is intentionally trying it's very best to kill it's own game. I mean it's beyond the "mistake" barrier, because so many ppl have complained till now about the maps and they still continue to make bad maps. This can only be intentional for some reason or another..even if it sounds strange.
If i see someone cutting their veins...i tell him if he knows what he's doing...he says yes and continues doing it...that means that it's emo and intentional. That's exactly what Blizzard does and supports. I even think they specially train their employees to do it, they force them..even threaten them with not paying their salaries if they don't ruing maps with each season pass.
Even worst..look at the blizzcon map pool.... that competition is dead even before starting. I am frustrated with these things....they don't listen to anything the community, even the pro's say...if they would..u would see relevant changes.
Each time they say "we are reading and listening everything u guys type/say" but they always seem to forget adding the last small line "and we throw it in the garbage"
There's probably legal/ego issues regarding Blizzard's reluctance to adopt community-made maps in the 1x1 map pool. This will inherently skew balance data and future balance discussion. I just hope for the sake of the consumers that Blizzard will bite the bullet and include tournament playable maps.
On October 20 2011 19:30 iNViCiOUZ wrote: God thanks for Battlefield 3. I am not going to play this map-pool anymore...
Because BF3 and SC2 are related games...
I find this amusing, I'm sure most people posting here don't have skill enough to blame the maps for imbalance, but they rant because the mainstream "wanna be pros" in TL do.
I'm glad you are hardcore gamers (well, people saying won't play because of maps doesn't seem too hardcore for me) but remember for every master player, there are 50 casual gamers, which enjoy current maps, or just doesn't care nor have skill to care about them.
Blizzard could do better, and there are some maps which are better than others for sure. But saying the map pool sucks it is just too much imo.
I thought all the hate was overhyped for searing crater, i've always had the map veteod so never really played on it... Just finished a game there... the natural is impossible to defend without 10000 spine and spore crawlers...
Why get rid of Tempest! That map was AWSOME! There are much worse maps which should have gone tbh.
I guess with the shorter seasons Blizz can't keep up with making maps, or Blizzonising other peoples (yes thats a word) with rocks and stuff. There is a whole community of map makers out there Blizzard, let them help you!!
Also:
On October 20 2011 20:16 KAmaKAsa wrote: blizzard just add the fucking gsl maps since your people clearly cant make any proper maps
Omg that sucks! Also the change in 2v2 maps.. i am not playn much but when there is a stupid map in 2v2 it is ruins of tarsonis! And tempest is one I like very much! But mor important: I want 1v1 mappool change!! Give us dualsight or another GSL MAP!
All the maps they added last season bar antiga are terrible and I have them vetoed. I imagine that this is similar for a lot of people. It's not necessarily about "balance/imbalance" but they just aren't very fun to play on (impossible natural/third expansions etc).
I really don't think it would be that hard to fix close positions on the less terrible Blizzard maps at the minimum. Metalopolis without close spawns >> the crap they replaced it with.
Ideally they'd just use the GSL map pool, because really casual players don't care about the map pool, and then people who are good/people who suck but watch competitive games want to play on the same maps as the pros. It's not difficult to work that out.
On October 20 2011 19:30 iNViCiOUZ wrote: God thanks for Battlefield 3. I am not going to play this map-pool anymore...
Because BF3 and SC2 are related games...
I find this amusing, I'm sure most people posting here don't have skill enough to blame the maps for imbalance, but they rant because the mainstream "wanna be pros" in TL do.
I'm glad you are hardcore gamers (well, people saying won't play because of maps doesn't seem too hardcore for me) but remember for every master player, there are 50 casual gamers, which enjoy current maps, or just doesn't care nor have skill to care about them.
Blizzard could do better, and there are some maps which are better than others for sure. But saying the map pool sucks it is just too much imo.
Its quite cheap and arrogant to claim that people should not be entitled to an opinion about the ladder maps because they are not grandmaster or pro level. Even if its too much for you to grasp, people can very well tell if they enjoy a game or not at any level.
And there is not a single good reason for anyone not play on tournaments maps.
May Blizz has to make a poll for the 2 maps the people like to have replaced.
For me the most hated maps as toss are backwater gulch and searing crater. Backwater is no fun for me and searing crater is just imbalance in my opinion!
On October 20 2011 18:24 Slyce wrote: Not sure why there is so much love for Metalopolis in this thread.
It was rubbish! unless you played zerg... Then it was just funny.
But seriously, a very bad map.
I love Metalopolis!
Yes, I´m only silver - but I paid Blizzard as much money for the game as any other high-level player. And I know that tons of bronze, silver and gold player also love Metalopolis. It is a lot of fun to play. If it is not balanced, let´s change it a bit. But I don´t like it, that it was removed completely.
Most new maps are all very similar from my point of (silver-)view...
On October 20 2011 19:30 iNViCiOUZ wrote: God thanks for Battlefield 3. I am not going to play this map-pool anymore...
Because BF3 and SC2 are related games...
I find this amusing, I'm sure most people posting here don't have skill enough to blame the maps for imbalance, but they rant because the mainstream "wanna be pros" in TL do.
I'm glad you are hardcore gamers (well, people saying won't play because of maps doesn't seem too hardcore for me) but remember for every master player, there are 50 casual gamers, which enjoy current maps, or just doesn't care nor have skill to care about them.
Blizzard could do better, and there are some maps which are better than others for sure. But saying the map pool sucks it is just too much imo.
You know everyone doesn't only argue about something for their own sake, I want the ladder to have tournament maps so that the pros can have an easier time practicing. And a lot of people just find it fun to play on the same maps that they see the pros play on when they watch tournaments, you can try their strategies for that map etc.
I agree 100%. I enjoy watching the pro players in these GSL maps that encourage [usually] macro games. And when I go to casually ladder, I have to deal with close by ground spawns, wide open naturals, and 3rds that are literally surrounded by high ground.
Why can't they just add like Dual Site and some of the bigger GSL maps, maybe Xelnaga fortress? Blizzard showing yet again that they have no understanding of competetive play. I think they will understand just how bad their maps are after the shitstorm following blizzcon though.
On October 20 2011 20:55 StarBrift wrote: Why can't they just add like Dual Site and some of the bigger GSL maps, maybe Xelnaga fortress? Blizzard showing yet again that they have no understanding of competetive play. I think they will understand just how bad their maps are after the shitstorm following blizzcon though.
Uhh, I think I'd rather have Searing and the other lame maps in the pool than Dual Sight. Dual Sight is a really terrible map balance-wise. But sure, Fortress and stuff would be cool.
On October 20 2011 19:18 TechnoZerg wrote: There's probably legal/ego issues regarding Blizzard's reluctance to adopt community-made maps in the 1x1 map pool. This will inherently skew balance data and future balance discussion. I just hope for the sake of the consumers that Blizzard will bite the bullet and include tournament playable maps.
Well fuck, I'm not asking for blizzard to steal GSL maps. I just wish Blizzard had better map developers on staff. Stop with all the got damn destructive rock shenanigans and give us better maps that don't involve close position shenanigans or blatant racial imbalance on them.
On October 20 2011 19:30 iNViCiOUZ wrote: God thanks for Battlefield 3. I am not going to play this map-pool anymore...
Because BF3 and SC2 are related games...
I find this amusing, I'm sure most people posting here don't have skill enough to blame the maps for imbalance, but they rant because the mainstream "wanna be pros" in TL do.
I'm glad you are hardcore gamers (well, people saying won't play because of maps doesn't seem too hardcore for me) but remember for every master player, there are 50 casual gamers, which enjoy current maps, or just doesn't care nor have skill to care about them.
Blizzard could do better, and there are some maps which are better than others for sure. But saying the map pool sucks it is just too much imo.
Its quite cheap and arrogant to claim that people should not be entitled to an opinion about the ladder maps because they are not grandmaster or pro level. Even if its too much for you to grasp, people can very well tell if they enjoy a game or not at any level.
And there is not a single good reason for anyone not play on tournaments maps.
I didn't say anything about people giving an opinion. I was talking about the 90% of this thread posters which just say "Fuck, this map pool is shit, pros play in other maps" which isn't quite true (pros also ladder as practice)
And in case people just want tournament maps in blizzard ladder just because their favourite pro players play in them, well those pros also play in blizzard ladder most of the time, so if they play on them, why you not? Do like them, ladder in blizzard maps and play custom game in GSL or whatever custom map you desire.
But ranting just for rant is pretty amusing.
As I said, i'm not defending Blizzard. Some of their maps are not as good as they should, and they could do better, but from this to "FUCK BLIZZ SHIT MAPS" there is a loooong way.
After all, if there was no Blizzard, we wouldn't be here talking about some of the best games in gaming history.
I don't understand it, there are good GSL maps that arn't "too big" as Blizzard would put it, and most of the people playing probably have as many of the new maps as they can from last season vetoed...
On October 20 2011 19:30 iNViCiOUZ wrote: God thanks for Battlefield 3. I am not going to play this map-pool anymore...
Because BF3 and SC2 are related games...
I find this amusing, I'm sure most people posting here don't have skill enough to blame the maps for imbalance, but they rant because the mainstream "wanna be pros" in TL do.
I'm glad you are hardcore gamers (well, people saying won't play because of maps doesn't seem too hardcore for me) but remember for every master player, there are 50 casual gamers, which enjoy current maps, or just doesn't care nor have skill to care about them.
Blizzard could do better, and there are some maps which are better than others for sure. But saying the map pool sucks it is just too much imo.
Its quite cheap and arrogant to claim that people should not be entitled to an opinion about the ladder maps because they are not grandmaster or pro level. Even if its too much for you to grasp, people can very well tell if they enjoy a game or not at any level.
And there is not a single good reason for anyone not play on tournaments maps.
I didn't say anything about people giving an opinion. I was talking about the 90% of this thread posters which just say "Fuck, this map pool is shit, pros play in other maps" which isn't quite true (pros also ladder as practice)
And in case people just want tournament maps in blizzard ladder just because their favourite pro players play in them, well those pros also play in blizzard ladder most of the time, so if they play on them, why you not? Do like them, ladder in blizzard maps and play custom game in GSL or whatever custom map you desire.
But ranting just for rant is pretty amusing.
As I said, i'm not defending Blizzard. Some of their maps are not as good as they should, and they could do better, but from this to "FUCK BLIZZ SHIT MAPS" there is a loooong way.
After all, if there was no Blizzard, we wouldn't be here talking about some of the best games in gaming history.
I'm quite sure that almost every professional player uses the majority of their practice on tournament maps. Many players have stated that ladder to them, is just a casual thing. Who would ever want to play ladder maps the majority of the time and get 2 raxed close spawn on Shattered?
The current map pool is underwhelming, this is a fact. Blizzard haven't changed it for the next season, then somehow wonder why their ladder becomes stagnant after the first few weeks.
People are entitled to bitch. It's one year into SC2 and we're still dealing with close spawn Shattered. Specific maps/spawns should never be almost universally dreaded by everyone, yet continuously locked into ladder.
On October 20 2011 21:11 Termit wrote: So why are we starting a new season earlier then? :S
They want more people to play because they have noticed more people are active at the start of a season.
Maybe I should consider using the new maps, I have them all vetoed except Antiga Shipyard.
Nerazism Crypt is ok... it's just really awkward to move through the center since there are 4 fucking watchtowers there to give intel. in cross positions the third is easy to defend, really hard to if it's not.
Abyssal Caverns is also okay as well as long as it isn't close positions.
That lava map is stupid, definitely veto it along with Typhon.
They're definitely "meh" maps and I'm actually severely disappointed since I only cared about the new season just for the maps.
MMR isn't going to change so I don't give a damn about my league.
All I want is some variety in the tilesets. The map pool is 75% drab blue/purple maps.
Xel'Naga Caverns Shakuras Plateau Abyssmal Caverns Nerazim Crypt Typhon Peaks
Nerazim and Abyssmal are practically identical. If they're too lazy to create new tilesets, let's at least get a map with the Delta Quad tiles or some of the 2v2 tiles.
WTFFFFFFF blizzard... seriously??? What the hell is the point of a new ladder season then.... sigh... All they have to do is use GSL maps. Seriously, how hard is that. I'm probably not going to ladder at all for season 4, so dumb....
On October 20 2011 22:25 jdsowa wrote: All I want is some variety in the tilesets. The map pool is 75% drab blue/purple maps.
Xel'Naga Caverns Shakuras Plateau Abyssmal Caverns Nerazim Crypt Typhon Peaks
Nerazim and Abyssmal are practically identical. If they're too lazy to create new tilesets, let's at least get a map with the Delta Quad tiles or some of the 2v2 tiles.
I actually want Delta Quadrant back in the map pool; just remove the initial backdoor rocks (AND THAT FUCKING LEDGE).
On October 20 2011 19:30 iNViCiOUZ wrote: God thanks for Battlefield 3. I am not going to play this map-pool anymore...
Because BF3 and SC2 are related games...
I find this amusing, I'm sure most people posting here don't have skill enough to blame the maps for imbalance, but they rant because the mainstream "wanna be pros" in TL do.
I'm glad you are hardcore gamers (well, people saying won't play because of maps doesn't seem too hardcore for me) but remember for every master player, there are 50 casual gamers, which enjoy current maps, or just doesn't care nor have skill to care about them.
Blizzard could do better, and there are some maps which are better than others for sure. But saying the map pool sucks it is just too much imo.
Its quite cheap and arrogant to claim that people should not be entitled to an opinion about the ladder maps because they are not grandmaster or pro level. Even if its too much for you to grasp, people can very well tell if they enjoy a game or not at any level.
And there is not a single good reason for anyone not play on tournaments maps.
I didn't say anything about people giving an opinion. I was talking about the 90% of this thread posters which just say "Fuck, this map pool is shit, pros play in other maps" which isn't quite true (pros also ladder as practice)
And in case people just want tournament maps in blizzard ladder just because their favourite pro players play in them, well those pros also play in blizzard ladder most of the time, so if they play on them, why you not? Do like them, ladder in blizzard maps and play custom game in GSL or whatever custom map you desire.
But ranting just for rant is pretty amusing.
As I said, i'm not defending Blizzard. Some of their maps are not as good as they should, and they could do better, but from this to "FUCK BLIZZ SHIT MAPS" there is a loooong way.
After all, if there was no Blizzard, we wouldn't be here talking about some of the best games in gaming history.
I'm quite sure that almost every professional player uses the majority of their practice on tournament maps. Many players have stated that ladder to them, is just a casual thing. Who would ever want to play ladder maps the majority of the time and get 2 raxed close spawn on Shattered?
The current map pool is underwhelming, this is a fact. Blizzard haven't changed it for the next season, then somehow wonder why their ladder becomes stagnant after the first few weeks.
People are entitled to bitch. It's one year into SC2 and we're still dealing with close spawn Shattered. Specific maps/spawns should never be almost universally dreaded by everyone, yet continuously locked into ladder.
Dunno what happens with close positions on shattered. I'm playing zerg and find them challenging.
Also, since everyone seems to expect zerg to 15 hatch, playing in one base and doing heavy pushes and then expanding is just unexpected for them.
If you cannot fend 2 rax then go play terran, or learn how to.
One major part of why I'm hardly laddering any more is crappy maps. Blizzard seems to want people laddering, so don't they realize that good maps would make people more active on the ladder?
Blizzard, you have a partnership with GomTV. They don't use your ladder maps. They use a much better map pool that you could, with a small bit of time/resources (or maybe even simply a REQUEST), dip into to supplement or replace your map pool.
As an avid spectator of SC2, I dislike the fact that SC2 pros and tournaments are playing a different (and better) game than I am. This disconnect is a disincentive to continue 1v1 laddering and that, in turn, hurts e-sports. You don't want to hurt e-sports, do you?
You'd think someone at Blizzard would say 'gee, we're getting a lot of flack for our maps, and it sure is a lot of work consuming time and resources making this stuff, maybe we should outsource it to someone WHO'S GOOD AT MAKING MAPS'
But then I remembered they need at least one 'rush map' in the pool and others would never follow this brilliant notion.
i do hope that they are removing close spawns for all their maps though, no map change is not as bad as spawning close positions in shattered temple/abyssal caverns
On October 20 2011 22:25 jdsowa wrote: All I want is some variety in the tilesets. The map pool is 75% drab blue/purple maps.
Xel'Naga Caverns Shakuras Plateau Abyssmal Caverns Nerazim Crypt Typhon Peaks
Nerazim and Abyssmal are practically identical. If they're too lazy to create new tilesets, let's at least get a map with the Delta Quad tiles or some of the 2v2 tiles.
When evaluating balance, and particularly the impact of changes on the game, you can't have too many variables. If you're going to introduce a major patch, which Blizzard did not that long ago, then I dont think you also want to change the map pool really, because it becomes too hard to judge what the impact of the patch was vs. what the impact of the maps is.
I wouldn't mind the maps staying for longer periods if Blizzard would just adopt a larger map pool so that we have some variety. It makes me so sad to look at the incredible work people in the map making community are doing, and the cool maps that the pros get to play on, and then to have to go play another game on Xel'Naga Caverns or Shakeyourass Plateau on the ladder.
On October 20 2011 23:09 ffadicted wrote: Seasons are too short now to change maps everytime, once every two seasons is fine
Then why shorten the seasons? Just because Blizz thinks/knows more people playing at the beginning of a season is nonsense IMO. There should always be new maps for a new season!
1100 people in favour of changing the maps is probably not enough for Blizzard to even take notice depsite the community given the chance would pretty much be in a 90/10 split in favour
The mappool is fine. I only dislike xnc and antiga but even they are playable. If they do a revamp they need to replace all of the maps with new ones though.
I have to agree with the majority of posters that there's really no point to a different season if the next season is nothing more than a point reset. Even cycle in some of the older maps, whatever, just keep it fresh.
Update Jungle Basin, or even Steppes of War, whatever... Just change something.
I feel a little 50/50 on this, on the one side I already have the maps that I really hate vetoed however on the other side there is only Shakuras that I’m really fine with, the rest are just a bit meh.
I would really like to see more tournament worthy maps put in the pool (to keep it fresh – new ones) so that players laddering are actually playing the same maps that they will sit and watch tournaments on.
On October 20 2011 23:09 ffadicted wrote: Seasons are too short now to change maps everytime, once every two seasons is fine
Then why shorten the seasons? Just because Blizz thinks/knows more people playing at the beginning of a season is nonsense IMO. There should always be new maps for a new season!
Because people whinged about gm not being dynamic enough since you cant get dropped from gm unless you are inactive. So blizzard shortens the season instead of fixing the problem and giving a real gm league that changes constantly
am i the only person who has no problems with the map pool for another short sesaon? i mean it's only 2 months, they can introduce new maps in Season 5. right now they should do their work for HotS =P i'm only pissed that they remove Khaydarin Depths... my favourite 2vs2 map =(
The poll is not setup right. Of course we'd like to see a map refresh every season, but the problem is Blizzard puts in their own maps, which are often craptastic at best. Thus the problem of imbalanced maps isn't resolved by a refresh.
I would have liked searing crater and backwater to go (idn those maps blow pretty hard imho) and get maybe terminus (new version seems like it can work on ladder) and dual site.
On October 20 2011 10:37 PhiliBiRD wrote: i swear blizz has like no staff working on SC2...
sadddddd
Why would they have a lot of people working on something that almost doesn't generate any income at all. They are a revenue based company, not charity....
Blizzard said some time ago they didnt like GSL maps for ladder becouse they were too big and lower leagues players had hard time scouting hidden expos. It was more about hidding expo then outplaying your opponent. It might be true for 1st GSL maps which are really huge (taldarim , crevasse and terminus) but newer maps are much more dynamic. I really would like to see daybreak in pool as it produced many epic games in GSLs. Also fixed position on maps like Shattered Temple and Metalopolis should be implemented.
On October 20 2011 10:37 PhiliBiRD wrote: i swear blizz has like no staff working on SC2...
sadddddd
Why would they have a lot of people working on something that almost doesn't generate any income at all. They are a revenue based company, not charity....
People bought the game because Blizzard promised constant balance changes (that includes maps). Balance changes are very rare and minor, same for maps (yes, we got new maps, but they are imbalanced). Not many will buy the next add-ons to support Blizzard's laziness.
So I hear that it is pretty much impossible, but can somebody explain to me the reasons that here cannot be a ladder that is independent of Blizzard? I never played BW besides campaign but ICCUP sounds like it was pretty awesome. If we had that for SC2 we would be free of Blizzards ineptitude/complacence/trolling (pick one).
So stupid. They alter 2v2 maps because of imbalance, yet half the 1v1 maps are completely Terran-favored. Then there's Searing Crater, which should be renamed to Searing Pile of Shit.
We all know Blizzard is either not very good at maps or just doesn't care, or both. They have shown time and time again that maps is not that high on their priority list. First , it's the small sized, short rush distance maps, then the rock fetish. I think their main concern is to cater to the "casual" player as much as possible, so maps won't be deemed important.
This just shows that Blizzard really doesn't care... I mean how hard is it to take one or two maps from the numerous leagues out there?
This is just depressing. My favourite thing about a new season is the refreshment of the maps. It almost feels like I'm playing a whole new game, because each map brings withitself its own strategies.
Please Blizzard, do something about the way you treat your customers.
On October 20 2011 10:37 PhiliBiRD wrote: i swear blizz has like no staff working on SC2...
sadddddd
Why would they have a lot of people working on something that almost doesn't generate any income at all. They are a revenue based company, not charity....
People bought the game because Blizzard promised constant balance changes (that includes maps). Balance changes are very rare and minor, same for maps (yes, we got new maps, but they are imbalanced). Not many will buy the next add-ons to support Blizzard's laziness.
People bought the game for many reasons, with the famous Blizzard support being one of them, but that's not the only reason.
And you wouldn't be the first to predict a mass boycott of video games because something annoyed you. Boycotts have been called for plenty of games, but they rarely happen, because people buy or don't buy games to have fun, not to make a statement.
As for what you said about balance changes, I disagree. SC2 is still in an imbalanced state, but be realistic. The game has been out for little over a year and there have already been four balance patches and two major map rotations. Balancing takes time, you can't just issue a new patch every day adjusting a stat based on yesterday's results.
You should all be very happy that they didn't add more shitty maps! I'm serious! Every time they add new shitty maps there is the risk that some tournaments pick them up, and while having shitty ladder maps in the map pool is bad enough it's even worse if it's new shitty maps all the time.
Let's just hope Blizzard really adds some of the Community made maps from the TL contest. If that doesn't happen I don't have any hope left for ladder.
Then our last hope is that custom game system will be fixed in HotS :C
Standard Blizzard and their endless ignoring of community. It's not the first time or the first game they do this to, I've grown accustomed to it and never ever expect them to listen anyway, thus I won't get disappointed.
Don't forget that Blizzard is looking and considering adding one or more of the winning maps of the TL map contest (search on TL for it). I imagine it would be Season 5 at least, possibly 6, that they implement the map, since they have to make adjustments to suite their needs.
how soon we seem to forget that the only reason scbw stayed alive was because of the community, and community made maps, and now blizzard is trying to monopolize their map pool and a lot of people just let them do it without complaining about it.
there wouldn't have been a SC2 without community made maps because scbw wouldn't have been as popular at all.
On October 20 2011 10:51 oOOoOphidian wrote: Clearly the new maps haven't been around for long enough to both weed out bad ones and come up with completely new ones. The 2v2 change is good even though that format will forever be a joke.
Searing Crater, Backwater Gulch, and Abyssal Caverns are all BAD maps. That is not even a question. Plus, the fact that close spawns still exists is an atrocity. Antiga Shipyard on the other hand is a good map, hence why it has been adopted by tournaments. Please Blizzard, just look at the Prime map-makers, they're better at making maps then you are.
Yes, Searing Crater and Backwater Gulch have clear problems that make it very hard to ever play a macro game on them. Abyssal Caverns has an awkwardly placed 3rd base and close positions, as well as quite bad close air positions and base to ramp distance - but then it's not much different from Metalopolis either. Antiga Shipyard has forced cross spawns for good reason in GSL and is by no means a balanced map - it's very hard to take a 4th base for any race except Terran who can easily take the gold with a PF in many cases. The close air/rotational imbalance causes many problems in the ladder version.
Other maps people complain about are actually quite good compared to older maps, for example Nerazim Crypt. That map has an obnoxious base to ramp distance and is by no means perfect, but it has sensible 3rd base locations even for close positions, which promotes macro quite a bit more than Shattered Temple.
Some maps only require modifications (or are old enough that they could be removed entirely), but some maps simply are not figured out yet and there are many uninformed opinions still due to the short time of play with them.
As people have said many times, the GSL maps are not all balanced or good. Daybreak is definitely one map that has potential and has less glaring problems than many ladder maps, but maps like Xel'Naga Fortress and Crevasse have many problems and players are not happy with those.
Also, it's worth noting that blizzard may have held off on creating new maps because they are holding a map making contest that will potentially decide part of a new map pool.
Nerazim Crypt is ridiculously hard vZ as P or T because it's so hard to secure your third base. That's partially due to the distance to the ramp and partially due to the odd positioning of the third base. It forces the player into some sort of 2 base timing that is somewhat all-in.
I don't think Xel'Naga Fortress is as bad as you're making it out to be, but Terminus and Daybreak both seem fine, so why can't we replace crappy maps like Backwater Gulch and Searing Crater with those?
There's no point. They're probably going to have a ton of new maps released with HotS. They're probably just waiting for that. If not, then they said the seasons are going to be much shorter, 2 months-ish. It'll probably change next season change in that case. Just hold out a little longer!
I can understand not adding more Blizzard sponsored maps, but it just seems ridiculous to me that they haven't added more GSL maps to the map pool.It's a shame really - those GSL maps going to go out of fashion soon and it would have never gotten played on ladder. Pity.
I'm surprised by the hate on the 2v2 maps actually. This seasons maps aren't that terrible. It's physically difficult to make maps that play similarly to 1v1 maps, especially with regards to expansion numbers, just because there's 4 people on the map.
The hate on the 1v1 maps though...that I get. Could we get some maps that aren't made of chokes, d-rocks and close positions? You don't even have to do them Blizzard! Just have one guy pay other map-makers to use their maps for a season. They'll be better maps anyway.
Why don't they give us the fucking GSL maps? WHY!?!?! Is there any reason to give us their own crappy maps that every player hates, rather than beautiful balanced maps like Belshir Beach, Terminus, Dual Sight, DayBreak, TestBug, etc.? Are they copyrighted or something? If that's impossible, why not just make the ladder map pool bigger and let us choose what we want to play on, rather than giving us 9 maps and 3 vetos.
God. How long will Blizzard continue to ignore community feedback. More importantly what's the point of creating a new season if you're not going to fix anything the community has pointed out. I'm sure they have statistics, like 90% of players Diamond and above vetoing Searing Crater, or NO TOURNAMENT GAME EVER having been played on most of their ladder maps.
It's all really obvious and seemingly very easy to fix (swap crap map with better, existing, map - done), which makes it all the more frustrating for us.
The map pool is why I don't play sc2 anymore. Sure the maps were all fairly good for me as a terran player, but after a while it gets boring as fuck doing the same 1/2 base timings, not worth playing anymore :/
All the map pools suck whether it's 1v1 or team game maps.
For 1s it makes no sense that blizzard was concerned about lower level leagues and hidden expos since you can veto 3 maps. Why include crap maps like searing crater that are going to be vetoed by the majority of players and not include a map like dual sight? If lower level players don't want to play it make them spend a veto like I have to do on crappy searing crater.
if you guys haven't noticed, blizzard does not give a fuck about the community. i actually like playing sc2, but i won't be getting the expansion because i can't support what blizzard has become. it's your stereotypical small company that cares and focuses really hard to make a good product, then strikes it rich and becomes a big inefficient, money grubbing corporate company.
On October 22 2011 17:01 akalarry wrote: if you guys haven't noticed, blizzard does not give a fuck about the community. i actually like playing sc2, but i won't be getting the expansion because i can't support what blizzard has become. it's your stereotypical small company that cares and focuses really hard to make a good product, then strikes it rich and becomes a big inefficient, money grubbing corporate company.
Blizzard do care, while the might not be as community focused as you would like, they are not stupid and would not simply completely disregard the community. They do interact with the community and what the community wants does make an impact on the game.
Also, I don't really see that blizzard has changed much since the release of SC2, if they were good enough to deserve your money then, why not now?
And I have a feeling that if you do not get the expansion then you will be left behind by the majority of the community. I am not saying that this is a good thing or a bad thing, just what I think will happen.
What I don't understand is why they take the time out to make their own maps when there are professional (and even super high-quality amateur) map-makers out there already churning stuff out that they could easily say "yeah, we like this, we're using it".
It just seems like a silly duplication of efforts. Not sure if it's ego or just that they think the standard tournament maps have particular flaws that wouldn't sit well with their broad target of players.
Honestly when the seasons were longer it was fine to change up the map pool every season. But with seasons only being 2 months each now, it's silly to change up the map pool EVERY season.
On October 23 2011 10:30 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Honestly when the seasons were longer it was fine to change up the map pool every season. But with seasons only being 2 months each now, it's silly to change up the map pool EVERY season.
Seriously, everyone needs to stop whining so much about this game. Stop acting like a bunch of entitled losers and just enjoy the game. The maps are fine. In two months, the season will change again and they'll throw some different maps in.
i didn't have high expectations for blizzard to release a better map pool for season 4 anyway. it's a little unsettling how arrogant blizzard is when they keep pushing maps that nobody in the competitive scene play down our throats.
On October 23 2011 10:30 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Honestly when the seasons were longer it was fine to change up the map pool every season. But with seasons only being 2 months each now, it's silly to change up the map pool EVERY season.
Seriously, everyone needs to stop whining so much about this game. Stop acting like a bunch of entitled losers and just enjoy the game. The maps are fine. In two months, the season will change again and they'll throw some different maps in.
On October 23 2011 10:30 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Honestly when the seasons were longer it was fine to change up the map pool every season. But with seasons only being 2 months each now, it's silly to change up the map pool EVERY season.
Seriously, everyone needs to stop whining so much about this game. Stop acting like a bunch of entitled losers and just enjoy the game. The maps are fine. In two months, the season will change again and they'll throw some different maps in.
But the map pool sucks. They know it and we know it. And even if they actually are dumb enough to think its fine, then we have told them over and over it isn't but they don't listen.
On October 23 2011 10:30 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Honestly when the seasons were longer it was fine to change up the map pool every season. But with seasons only being 2 months each now, it's silly to change up the map pool EVERY season.
Seriously, everyone needs to stop whining so much about this game. Stop acting like a bunch of entitled losers and just enjoy the game. The maps are fine. In two months, the season will change again and they'll throw some different maps in.
But the map pool sucks. They know it and we know it. And even if they actually are dumb enough to think its fine, then we have told them over and over it isn't but they don't listen.
exactly! they worry about the 1v1 player base dwindling away, yet they make us play nerazim crypt and that fire map that is no fun. pure arrogance on blizzard's side.
I'm specifically not laddering because of these maps. It's extremely unfortunate how unfun these new ones are compared to the not-so-balanced-but-oddly-fun-to-play maps of 2 seasons ago.
Really hope Blizzard starts devoting more resources to map pools, as there are so many great ones being used in tournaments that they could easily incorporate like Tal'Darim.
On October 23 2011 10:30 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Honestly when the seasons were longer it was fine to change up the map pool every season. But with seasons only being 2 months each now, it's silly to change up the map pool EVERY season.
Seriously, everyone needs to stop whining so much about this game. Stop acting like a bunch of entitled losers and just enjoy the game. The maps are fine. In two months, the season will change again and they'll throw some different maps in.
But the map pool sucks. They know it and we know it. And even if they actually are dumb enough to think its fine, then we have told them over and over it isn't but they don't listen.
exactly! they worry about the 1v1 player base dwindling away, yet they make us play nerazim crypt and that fire map that is no fun. pure arrogance on blizzard's side.
Why do people want Xel Naga removed? It's completely baffling to get rid of arguably the games most balanced and fair map just because it's old. It would be like removing Python or Fighting Spirit from the BW mappool.
Sure I get the logic, it is pretty old (unless you compare to any of the commonly used BW maps) but why would you remove it when you have trash like shattered clos pos, narazim crypt, backwater gulch, etc etc.
On October 24 2011 08:09 Geovu wrote: Why do people want Xel Naga removed? It's completely baffling to get rid of arguably the games most balanced and fair map just because it's old. It would be like removing Python or Fighting Spirit from the BW mappool.
Sure I get the logic, it is pretty old (unless you compare to any of the commonly used BW maps) but why would you remove it when you have trash like shattered clos pos, narazim crypt, backwater gulch, etc etc.
XNC is very, very good for Terran in TvZ. The positions are short enough that 11/11 is a nightmare to deal with and counter-attacks are very difficult, the natural is open enough that if the T just gets a ton of hellions, there's nothing the Z can do to stop a drone massacre, the gold can be taken while the T is pushing towards the Z, and the gold's position in the center of the map commands the major counter-attack paths into the Terran base. People don't want to dump it because it's old--the GSL still runs Metalopolis--but instead because it's just bad for Z in the current metagame.
I'd like to see close positions on shattered temple removed, and searing crater removed altogether.
The map is so incredibly bad (3 entrances to the natural). Whenever I roll it (which doesn't happen any more, because I vetoed it), I 1-base all in. Only option in pvt.
I agree, but not because of the reasons OP stated. I just don't like most of the Season 3 maps, and I've only got 3 vetos. I would like to see some more interesting 1v1 maps (Test Bug would be epic!) and the addition of Crevasse and Terminus. Guess we'll have to wait for Season 5 :-/
god blizzard is seriously turning into a joke. they dont ever implement new features, and wow they really cant even change the 1v1 map pool? at all?? pathetic..
On October 24 2011 08:09 Geovu wrote: Why do people want Xel Naga removed? It's completely baffling to get rid of arguably the games most balanced and fair map just because it's old. It would be like removing Python or Fighting Spirit from the BW mappool.
Sure I get the logic, it is pretty old (unless you compare to any of the commonly used BW maps) but why would you remove it when you have trash like shattered clos pos, narazim crypt, backwater gulch, etc etc.
XNC is very, very good for Terran in TvZ. The positions are short enough that 11/11 is a nightmare to deal with and counter-attacks are very difficult, the natural is open enough that if the T just gets a ton of hellions, there's nothing the Z can do to stop a drone massacre, the gold can be taken while the T is pushing towards the Z, and the gold's position in the center of the map commands the major counter-attack paths into the Terran base. People don't want to dump it because it's old--the GSL still runs Metalopolis--but instead because it's just bad for Z in the current metagame.
this is right on. Xel Naga Caverns is AWFUL for Zerg in ZvT. basically forces zerg to play 1 base for the longest time or else get all inned by 11/11 racks or 1-1-1. and if by some miracle the game is forced mid-late game the terran puts a planetary at the gold right in the middle of the map and its over
It appears as though Blizzard have changed their minds. Just logged onto my NA acct. and Metalopolis is back in the 1v1 map pool with the removal of backwater and searing crater.
EPT
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