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On October 13 2011 09:07 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:02 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 13 2011 08:43 DarQraven wrote:I'd be in favor of 3 separate ladders (why would random need one, btw? It's not like you'll be playing any races that the other three ladders wouldn't cover...) IF and only if you could see a person's other characters from his profile.I have no problem with high ranked players making an alternative character for offracing or messing around, but I'd at least like to know about it. The premise of SC2's matchmaking matching you with players of your own skill level and the experience of being beaten by a smurf don't go well together. If said masters player played on an alt account and absolutely picked me apart with superior micro - as long as I can see that this wasn't an ordinary platinum player I would be fine with it. So basically you're saying an unranked ladder would ruin the MMR because people might improve? People improve by laddering too you know. Difference being that the ladder would constantly update your ranking and MMR. Practicing on an unranked ladder for a while could result in you suddenly being 1 "league" better than you used to be when you last player ranked ladder. The matchmaking is a bit slow in making this adjustment, so you'd be left stomping now-inferior players for a while. If you'd have just practiced on ranked ladder instead, your MMR would already have adjusted to your new skill level gradually, and this problem wouldn't present itself. It's impossible to be enforced. Anyone can make a smurf/play on a friends account, or just be straight up malicious in many other ways that wouldn't involve using an alt race ladder option. A masters could be smurfing on a gold zerg account that is platinum with terran for all you know. I can't speak to how rampant smurfing actually is, but it's a useless point unless blizzard enforces even more restrictions. tl;dr I'd take it if it let you see alt accounts or not. Also this league stomping phenomenon happens all the time in league placement matches and when people go back and practice outside of ladder. They might as well should be smurfs too. Yes, because there are people that might abuse a system that's already in place, we should just not make any improvements to it anymore, right? By that logic, we might as well get rid of passports altogether, since there are some people that have fake ones. Smurfers gonna smurf, that much is obvious, but at least separate ladder rankings per race would account for those that play a main race and practice an alt race. I have a feeling that 'malicious' smurfers aren't the majority.
We're in agreement. I don't know why you're arguing with me.
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A lot of people really care about their ranks...
Seems pretty silly. Being competitive is one thing, not sure anything under GM is worth writing home about though, but that might be the diamond player in me talking, haha.
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On my account I've got about 2k games played, I'd say 1500 of them are 1v1s. It's a 1v1 game, team games are not truly competitive, I think most people have stopped playing 1v1 because:
A - the game is getting old, 90% of the people who bought it have moved on to other games. It's still got a very healthy competitive scene but in terms of numbers - obviously these were going to drop as time wore on. We'll see a resurgence when the expansion hits.
B - This community is full of shitheads. BM is a regular occurrence on the ladder. If I wasn't a hardcore RTS player, I would never in a million years subjugate myself to the types of people/behavior witnessed on the ladder as a form of fun in my spare time. I actually take regular breaks from the game mainly because of the people that I encounter.
I've actually started simply leaving games if I get a sense that the person I'm playing against is a piece of trash because honestly it's not worth the ladder points for me to suffer their personalities.
But what do you expect when the bulk of the SC2 viewing community endorses the biggest "my mamma never loved me" types (idra, deezer, etc)
But as far as the suggestion to have multiple 1v1 ranks - sure why not. The problem (And I've brought this up before on the official blizzard forums) is that this game does not have a constant source of revenue and over time the amount of players that will buy multiple accounts for exactly this reason is too big for them to ignore. I mean, even now I am constantly playing against new accounts. There's a pretty big market out there for people willing to buy smurf accounts - and at 60 bucks a pop... that's some big $$$
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On October 13 2011 09:08 Tyrant0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:07 DarQraven wrote:On October 13 2011 09:02 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 13 2011 08:43 DarQraven wrote:I'd be in favor of 3 separate ladders (why would random need one, btw? It's not like you'll be playing any races that the other three ladders wouldn't cover...) IF and only if you could see a person's other characters from his profile.I have no problem with high ranked players making an alternative character for offracing or messing around, but I'd at least like to know about it. The premise of SC2's matchmaking matching you with players of your own skill level and the experience of being beaten by a smurf don't go well together. If said masters player played on an alt account and absolutely picked me apart with superior micro - as long as I can see that this wasn't an ordinary platinum player I would be fine with it. So basically you're saying an unranked ladder would ruin the MMR because people might improve? People improve by laddering too you know. Difference being that the ladder would constantly update your ranking and MMR. Practicing on an unranked ladder for a while could result in you suddenly being 1 "league" better than you used to be when you last player ranked ladder. The matchmaking is a bit slow in making this adjustment, so you'd be left stomping now-inferior players for a while. If you'd have just practiced on ranked ladder instead, your MMR would already have adjusted to your new skill level gradually, and this problem wouldn't present itself. It's impossible to be enforced. Anyone can make a smurf/play on a friends account, or just be straight up malicious in many other ways that wouldn't involve using an alt race ladder option. A masters could be smurfing on a gold zerg account that is platinum with terran for all you know. I can't speak to how rampant smurfing actually is, but it's a useless point unless blizzard enforces even more restrictions. tl;dr I'd take it if it let you see alt accounts or not. Also this league stomping phenomenon happens all the time in league placement matches and when people go back and practice outside of ladder. They might as well should be smurfs too. Yes, because there are people that might abuse a system that's already in place, we should just not make any improvements to it anymore, right? By that logic, we might as well get rid of passports altogether, since there are some people that have fake ones. Smurfers gonna smurf, that much is obvious, but at least separate ladder rankings per race would account for those that play a main race and practice an alt race. I have a feeling that 'malicious' smurfers aren't the majority. We're in agreement. I don't know why you're arguing with me.
I gathered from your reply that you didn't think the "see alternate accounts" feature on a player's profile was needed. I do, as I explained. It would leave only the malicious smurfs out there as annoying cases - which I agree cannot be prevented -, while you could tell for offracing players that you were just beaten by a higher league player.
Losing horribly is only half as bad when you know you *should* have lost, as opposed to wondering why all those other bronzies are so damn good while you aren't.
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On October 13 2011 09:13 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 09:08 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 13 2011 09:07 DarQraven wrote:On October 13 2011 09:02 Tyrant0 wrote:On October 13 2011 08:43 DarQraven wrote:I'd be in favor of 3 separate ladders (why would random need one, btw? It's not like you'll be playing any races that the other three ladders wouldn't cover...) IF and only if you could see a person's other characters from his profile.I have no problem with high ranked players making an alternative character for offracing or messing around, but I'd at least like to know about it. The premise of SC2's matchmaking matching you with players of your own skill level and the experience of being beaten by a smurf don't go well together. If said masters player played on an alt account and absolutely picked me apart with superior micro - as long as I can see that this wasn't an ordinary platinum player I would be fine with it. So basically you're saying an unranked ladder would ruin the MMR because people might improve? People improve by laddering too you know. Difference being that the ladder would constantly update your ranking and MMR. Practicing on an unranked ladder for a while could result in you suddenly being 1 "league" better than you used to be when you last player ranked ladder. The matchmaking is a bit slow in making this adjustment, so you'd be left stomping now-inferior players for a while. If you'd have just practiced on ranked ladder instead, your MMR would already have adjusted to your new skill level gradually, and this problem wouldn't present itself. It's impossible to be enforced. Anyone can make a smurf/play on a friends account, or just be straight up malicious in many other ways that wouldn't involve using an alt race ladder option. A masters could be smurfing on a gold zerg account that is platinum with terran for all you know. I can't speak to how rampant smurfing actually is, but it's a useless point unless blizzard enforces even more restrictions. tl;dr I'd take it if it let you see alt accounts or not. Also this league stomping phenomenon happens all the time in league placement matches and when people go back and practice outside of ladder. They might as well should be smurfs too. Yes, because there are people that might abuse a system that's already in place, we should just not make any improvements to it anymore, right? By that logic, we might as well get rid of passports altogether, since there are some people that have fake ones. Smurfers gonna smurf, that much is obvious, but at least separate ladder rankings per race would account for those that play a main race and practice an alt race. I have a feeling that 'malicious' smurfers aren't the majority. We're in agreement. I don't know why you're arguing with me. I gathered from your reply that you didn't think the "see alternate accounts" feature on a player's profile was needed. I do, as I explained. It would leave only the malicious smurfs out there as annoying cases - which I agree cannot be prevented -, while you could tell for offracing players that you were just beaten by a higher league player. Losing horribly is only half as bad when you know you *should* have lost, as opposed to wondering why all those other bronzies are so damn good while you aren't.
People will smurf either way. I'll take an alternative ladder option with or without the account transparency. It's not a bad thing to implement, it's just not needed and wouldn't solve smurfing at all. Also I don't quite know the extent people smurf in lower leagues. If I've fought one I've never noticed.
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On October 13 2011 09:13 TortoiseCa wrote:
On my account I've got about 2k games played, I'd say 1500 of them are 1v1s. It's a 1v1 game, team games are not truly competitive, I think most people have stopped playing 1v1 because:
A - the game is getting old, 90% of the people who bought it have moved on to other games. It's still got a very healthy competitive scene but in terms of numbers - obviously these were going to drop as time wore on. We'll see a resurgence when the expansion hits.
B - This community is full of shitheads. BM is a regular occurrence on the ladder. If I wasn't a hardcore RTS player, I would never in a million years subjugate myself to the types of people/behavior witnessed on the ladder as a form of fun in my spare time. I actually take regular breaks from the game mainly because of the people that I encounter.
I've actually started simply leaving games if I get a sense that the person I'm playing against is a piece of trash because honestly it's not worth the ladder points for me to suffer their personalities.
But what do you expect when the bulk of the SC2 viewing community endorses the biggest "my mamma never loved me" types (idra, deezer, etc)
But as far as the suggestion to have multiple 1v1 ranks - sure why not. The problem (And I've brought this up before on the official blizzard forums) is that this game does not have a constant source of revenue and over time the amount of players that will buy multiple accounts for exactly this reason is too big for them to ignore. I mean, even now I am constantly playing against new accounts. There's a pretty big market out there for people willing to buy smurf accounts - and at 60 bucks a pop... that's some big $$$
Actually there is a second source of income from the game. Tournaments... remember that all the big tournaments must pay some cash to blizzard (wich i dont know how much it is and im not gonna go crazy whit the 50% ad revenue rumours out there) and also 2 more expansions to go so the cash isnt that much of a trouble.
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There should be a melee game list just like there is in BW. Where people put things like: "1v1, map, california lag, platinum level" or something.
It should also keep a record of win/loss/disc. Seriously bnet has gotten worse and worse since bw, war3, and now sc2.
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i just want listed lobbies with multiple names under one account.
listed lobbies so that i can make a game called "1v1 TvZ High Master" and practice my tvz in a particular map.
and multiple names, as OP suggested, one for fun, one for non-fun, anonymous so i wont be bothered.
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On October 13 2011 09:00 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 08:56 pt wrote:On October 13 2011 08:54 DarQraven wrote:On October 13 2011 08:47 Panzamelano wrote:On October 13 2011 08:44 pt wrote:On October 13 2011 08:43 DarQraven wrote:
I'd be in favor of 3 separate ladders (why would random need one, btw? It's not like you'll be playing any races that the other three ladders wouldn't cover...) IF and only if you could see a person's other characters from his profile.
I have no problem with high ranked players making an alternative character for offracing or messing around, but I'd at least like to know about it. The premise of SC2's matchmaking matching you with players of your own skill level and the experience of being beaten by a smurf don't go well together.
If said masters player played on an alt account and absolutely picked me apart with superior micro - as long as I can see that this wasn't an ordinary platinum player I would be fine with it. Pretty sure what you can see in peoples' profiles is the thing that is scaring them. not really what actually scares people is that to offrace they have to go trough hours and hours of losing just to get to their offrace level and then they have to work for hours and hours whit their main race to get back to where they were... thats why people dont want to offrace. This. I don't think many people care all that much about the league icon or division rank. However, complete steamroller games simply aren't fun for both parties involved, and you'll have to go through quite a few of them to get your MMR to the right level. Problem is that you might beat bronze players really badly - yet you're still not getting any more MMR for that win than if you just barely beat them. Even with 100%/0% winrate, promotions/demotions can be quite slow. Pretty sure people do care about winning. If it was about having fun, why do people do the same all-in builds over and over and over again? Sure they care about winning, but winning != having a high division rank. If you truly are a rank 1 masters player, you will get back to that spot eventually, you won't magically become a worse player by dropping your MMR. The problem right now is that this "eventually" simply takes too long to make practicing other races on the ladder a viable option. You'll have to instaquit god knows how many games to drop your MMR, then play all the way back up once you want to play your main race again. None of those matches are going to be remotely interesting, and in some/many cases this can mean an entire day's worth of games "wasted". Especially for higher ranked players the difference between their main race and an offrace can span multiple leagues.
I meant anything that makes you look good. Rank, points, ratio, etc. I just gave an example of why people care.
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team games can be just as competitive (albeit at a lower 'rate' because of the different cheeses) as 1v1 for someone, if they take it as seriously.
i personally work on most of my basic mechanics in 2v2 matches when there can be so much stress to constantly know what's going on at all times. strategies are more clear-cut, but that does not mean you have to play in a simple style or dumb yourself down to use joke strats.
honestly, i rarely ever experience BM in 2v2 & where i can't just crush the guy and feel better about it by the end of the game. i'm only saying that it's as fun as you make it to be. if you're unable to have fun over the ladder because of the attitudes that people take with you, the long and short is that you just can't handle it (and it's understandable).
i like the idea of seperate rankings for 1v1, but it's quite a lot to keep track of. it also seems like something that would happen in the future, but it's still a little unecessary.
having a dedicated casual ladder will have more people taking the game less seriously wouldn't it?
in LoL, there are players who play 1-10 ranked matches per 1000 of their games---that's just how they are, whether they're scared of the competition, or they would rather pub stomp.
it may help bring people back into laddering for fun, but there are already other options for good practice.... such as asking friends for customs.
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On October 13 2011 09:20 jinorazi wrote:
i just want listed lobbies with multiple names under one account.
listed lobbies so that i can make a game called "1v1 TvZ High Master" and practice my tvz in a particular map.
and multiple names, as OP suggested, one for fun, one for non-fun, anonymous so i wont be bothered.
I think the reason from blizzard's perspective that this doesn't really work is because you'll end up with fewer players using the ladder system and the ladder's accuracy in determining matches is directly related to the amount of usage (data) that they can collect. And let's be honest here, when you hosted those public games on BW - you either got a complete newbie, a hacker or a gosu korean 90% of the time. - I think the ladder matchmaking system is the ideal solution if you can get past the fact that nobody cares what your record is.
I love that I can log on, press play - and get a competitively matched game. Just ignore the points - record - etc and enjoy this feature because it only works so great because it forces people to use it.
I mean, it's not hard to find practice partners (and be able to survey their skill - by using the ladder system - before you play so you know that it'll be an even match)
So I actually find a lot of these suggestions counter-intuitive. The game's based around the ladder right now. Even discussions by Dustin Bowder saying that the ladder is not for pro gamers is inaccurate. There's actually very few pro gamers out there that are dominating the ladder - There is a lot of competition at the highest tier of the ladder system and only the upper echelon of pro gamers are dominating it (because they're so few that they're given downgraded opponents so they don't have to wait a week to find an opponent)
I was just watching inControl's stream and every time I looked (had it running in the background while reading the forums) he was losing a game to somebody I had never heard of. I know he's not a top pro gamer atm but he is considered among pro gamers at the least.
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One for each race would mean too much smurfing -- A player 2 or 3 leagues ahead of someone else offracing is going to be better than the weaker player's main race.
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On October 13 2011 07:36 IamBoIt wrote:
Custom games?
Doesn't that cover what you are talking about?
There are a couple problems with using customs to 1v1.
1) You often get matched up with people outside your skill level
2) It is only feasible to play a couple of 1v1 maps because most are too unpopular and it takes a long time to get matched up with someone else. Basically, when I do customs I can only get in XNC or Lost Temple for 1v1 maps.
These problems are slightly resolved if you have friends that are your skill level and able to be on at the same time as you. But when you're playing friends you learn most of their builds and their style pretty fast and you lose the unpredictability of playing a random opponent.
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A seperate ladder with more maps/custom maps would be nice.
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I agree with having 2 for 1v1, with one being a backup that's not as serious, at the very least it could give players more confidence, I know some people have trouble getting started up on ladder. I don't think you need one for each race, seems kind of irrational. Rather I think they should make a more in depth statistics page with all that info.
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1 per race seems fine, seen this idea before on the forums but I would love it if they fixed so you could offrace and have a seperate ranking with it. If I would play anything but Zerg I would get stomped with my mmr ^_^
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an unranked ladder that takes ur MMR into account where you can actually pick the Match up you want to practice would be great
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The only problem with multiple accounts is that they would break the league system in place. GM wouldn't be top 200 it could be top 196 with the last 4 being some gosu. There would need to be a rule set where you can't have multiple accounts in the same division and can't have multiple accounts in GM.
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There should be a ranked ladder, which is what exists now and an unranked ladder, where you play against people of your own skill level but nothing is on the line.
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I dont get how people who are Diamond and below can have ladder fear, Blizz completely took away your loss amount when ppl check your profile. Theres no way to tell if you have something embarassing like a 150-170 record. Master level sucks sometimes cuz going 20-30 for the world to see sucks and you always end getting raged at a million times because if you beat anybody you instantly get a message "HAHAH FUCKING NEWB 20-30 I KNEW YOU WERE TRASH!.
Allowing people to create new accounts would be a trainwreck........ If you think you have ladder fear now wait till all you golds get matched all day long with Master players who are smurfing there new accounts.
I think the solution is simple. fix the custom game system...... literaaly just go back to wc3 and BW format, how fucking hard is that blizz?/
I want all of you ladder fearer's to think of this scenario
You come from work, your tired/exhausted you really want to play SC2 but hell you dont wnat to ladder and lose ranked games BECAUSE you have a life. You go to chat channels and try find a game but that takes forever and can be very ineffective.
Now imagine
You go to custom games and Blizz adds in a new category called "User Title or something of that manner and in the list you see....
1v1 Xel Naga Caverns Master Only
1v1 Metaloplis Gold Only
etc
you join the game and GUESS WHAT???? THE GAME does not fucking AUTOSTART the host actually STARTS THE GAME.
ALSO guess what theres no popularity on this feature either! so everyones map goes in order of creation and you can easily skim through everyboys lobby.
What if a gold joins a master only game? host checks profile and kicks you.
No need for smurf accounts
No need for an unranked ladder that will ruin regular ladder
A system that has worked 10 FUCKING years for BW and wc3.
Simple? I think so.
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EPT
