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Panzamelano
Colombia248 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:44 pt wrote: Pretty sure what you can see in peoples' profiles is the thing that is scaring them. not really what actually scares people is that to offrace they have to go trough hours and hours of losing just to get to their offrace level and then they have to work for hours and hours whit their main race to get back to where they were... thats why people dont want to offrace. | ||
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Beamer
United States242 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
As stated, only XNC or Shattered, both hell for PvT. | ||
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LuCiD37
United States150 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:39 xOff wrote: And that shows perfectly why it would destroy the MMR system... If you're winning alot of games then you've raised your MMR and if you would then go back to the ranked games you would be of a higher skill level than your opponent. Say for example you're in gold league you then train for a couple weeks in unranked games and get to the approximate skill of a platinum player. You then go back to ranked and demolish the golds cause you're of the skill of a platinum player. That's unfair and stupid to the gold players who want to just play players of their own skill level in ranked games. Edit: However I do agree about separate races having seperate MMR's and ranks. Don't be silly, you already can go practice in custom games to accomplish that- so you make no real case for there being a problem with implementing an unranked system. An unranked system would allow for more efficient practice, and would avoid this god-awful system in which, if you're opponent is drastically worse or better than you in the lobby, you're only alternative is to log off to get out of the game. Right now in custom games, you're completely trapped playing against whatever opponent joins your game. I'm in masters, so it's a complete waste of my time to play someone in bronze. In fact, it may very well make me worse at the game if anything. This applies in the inverse as well (someone getting completely obliterated learns very little). If an unranked system isn't implemented, then at the very least we need a COMPLETE revision of the custom games format. Right now it is possibly the worst I've ever seen in any game. Fortunately I love the gameplay of sc2 enough to bear through it. We need to be able to make specifications as to what custom games we want to play. I should be able to check "ladder maps only" and "skill level: masters" and play unranked custom games. Currently, the only maps that are played are the most popular maps- and it becomes a vicious cycle of it being the only game played, so no one even bothers with the other maps (I'm talking about shattered temple and xel'naga). I just had a long week at school and haven't been able to play much sc2 at all. As such, I don't feel like hopping right back into ladder to play worthwhile opponents. I need to be able to warm up- but I don't want to warm up with bronze and gold league players. Inversely, I'm sure they don't want to play with me either. The fact that this game needs a complete change to its custom games interface is beyond obvious to the point of it being almost unnecessary to talk about, yet there is still nothing being done. There is absolutely no one who genuinely and objectively thinks the system is fine as it is. There is so much more that it should and shouldn't have that it's astonishing that blizzard could do such an inadequate job at allowing for sc2 gaming outside of the ladder. Talk about making more money? The ability to play the game for lengthy amounts of time without getting bored or stressed could be augmented tremendously by the option to play COMPETITIVELY in an unranked format. Keep the challenge, drop the stress = bring the players, make the money. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:47 Panzamelano wrote: not really what actually scares people is that to offrace they have to go trough hours and hours of losing just to get to their offrace level and then they have to work for hours and hours whit their main race to get back to where they were... thats why people dont want to offrace. yea i was about to type something like this. it really isn't a benefit that offracing is so hard except blizzard can get more account purchases. if i switch to terran, my ranking and MMR drop. if i switch back to toss, i'll probably be at a position on the ladder that favors me against lower level opponents. | ||
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pt
United States813 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:49 Ruscour wrote: As stated, only XNC or Shattered, both hell for PvT. As stated, you can actually create custom games. | ||
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Techno
1900 Posts
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:47 Panzamelano wrote: not really what actually scares people is that to offrace they have to go trough hours and hours of losing just to get to their offrace level and then they have to work for hours and hours whit their main race to get back to where they were... thats why people dont want to offrace. This. I don't think many people care all that much about the league icon or division rank. However, complete steamroller games simply aren't fun for both parties involved, and you'll have to go through quite a few of them to get your MMR to the right level. Problem is that you might beat bronze players really badly - yet you're still not getting any more MMR for that win than if you just barely beat them. Even with 100%/0% winrate, promotions/demotions can be quite slow. | ||
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pt
United States813 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:54 DarQraven wrote: This. I don't think many people care all that much about the league icon or division rank. However, complete steamroller games simply aren't fun for both parties involved, and you'll have to go through quite a few of them to get your MMR to the right level. Problem is that you might beat bronze players really badly - yet you're still not getting any more MMR for that win than if you just barely beat them. Even with 100%/0% winrate, promotions/demotions can be quite slow. Pretty sure people do care about winning. If it was about having fun, why do people do the same all-in builds over and over and over again? | ||
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harhar!
Germany190 Posts
funranking is useless though. | ||
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
There's reasons why we have to pay 50€ for a smurf those days. | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:56 pt wrote: Pretty sure people do care about winning. If it was about having fun, why do people do the same all-in builds over and over and over again? Sure they care about winning, but winning != having a high division rank. If you truly are a rank 1 masters player, you will get back to that spot eventually, you won't magically become a worse player by dropping your MMR. The problem right now is that this "eventually" simply takes too long to make practicing other races on the ladder a viable option. You'll have to instaquit god knows how many games to drop your MMR, then play all the way back up once you want to play your main race again. None of those matches are going to be remotely interesting, and in some/many cases this can mean an entire day's worth of games "wasted". Especially for higher ranked players the difference between their main race and an offrace can span multiple leagues. | ||
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FluXen
Canada210 Posts
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acrimoneyius
United States983 Posts
Also, not all people care about their shiny badge that says which league they are in. Smart people do care about MMR, however. If I want to practice a new race for 20 games, and then go back to my original, it's really terrible for the ladder. The ladder tries to accomplish matching you up with equally skilled opponents, but becomes completely nonsensical when you want to off-race. | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
I do however think some system of separate rankings for each race would be cool. | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:43 DarQraven wrote: I'd be in favor of 3 separate ladders (why would random need one, btw? It's not like you'll be playing any races that the other three ladders wouldn't cover...) IF and only if you could see a person's other characters from his profile. I have no problem with high ranked players making an alternative character for offracing or messing around, but I'd at least like to know about it. The premise of SC2's matchmaking matching you with players of your own skill level and the experience of being beaten by a smurf don't go well together. If said masters player played on an alt account and absolutely picked me apart with superior micro - as long as I can see that this wasn't an ordinary platinum player I would be fine with it. Difference being that the ladder would constantly update your ranking and MMR. Practicing on an unranked ladder for a while could result in you suddenly being 1 "league" better than you used to be when you last player ranked ladder. The matchmaking is a bit slow in making this adjustment, so you'd be left stomping now-inferior players for a while. If you'd have just practiced on ranked ladder instead, your MMR would already have adjusted to your new skill level gradually, and this problem wouldn't present itself. It's impossible to be enforced. Anyone can make a smurf/play on a friends account, or just be straight up malicious in many other ways that wouldn't involve using an alt race ladder option. A masters could be smurfing on a gold zerg account that is platinum with terran for all you know. I can't speak to how rampant smurfing actually is, but it's a useless point unless blizzard enforces even more restrictions. tl;dr I'd take it if it let you see alt accounts or not. Also this league stomping phenomenon happens all the time in league placement matches and when people go back and practice outside of ladder. They might as well should be smurfs too; You'll simply never know either way unless you ask him yourself afterwards. On October 13 2011 09:01 FluXen wrote: No point in 4 different 1v1 ladders it would be too complicated for the GM league(s) and if there were 4 GM leagues its absolutly useless at that point. Just 1v1 with what ever race you enjoy to 1v1 with and if you want to switch, just switch. Blizzard will not make 4 different 1v1 ladders b/c of ppl being to scared to tank the MMR. People aren't scared of tanking their MMR. They don't want to pay $50+expansions for each and every smurf they off-race on; The alternative being to tank your MMR. What a wonderful choice Blizzard has granted us. Your solution is "Just 1v1 with your main and deal with it." | ||
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On October 13 2011 09:02 Tyrant0 wrote: It's impossible to be enforced. Anyone can make a smurf/play on a friends account, or just be straight up malicious in many other ways that wouldn't involve using an alt race ladder option. A masters could be smurfing on a gold zerg account that is platinum with terran for all you know. I can't speak to how rampant smurfing actually is, but it's a useless point unless blizzard enforces even more restrictions. tl;dr I'd take it if it let you see alt accounts or not. Also this league stomping phenomenon happens all the time in league placement matches and when people go back and practice outside of ladder. They might as well should be smurfs too. Yes, because there are people that might abuse a system that's already in place, we should just not make any improvements to it anymore, right? By that logic, we might as well get rid of passports altogether, since there are some people that have fake ones. Smurfers gonna smurf, that much is obvious, but at least separate ladder rankings per race would account for those that play a main race and practice an alt race. If someone wants to be an ass to lower-league players and finds it worth it to spend 50 euros to do that, by all means let them. That's what they do now, nothing will change. I have a feeling that 'malicious' smurfers aren't the majority, though. | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On October 13 2011 08:36 Rostam wrote: I can't speak to WC3, but a lot of people on BW make separate accounts for offracing. Okay, that's a valid point. Both those games did allow for smurfing and unlimited account creation. I don't really have a response to that :> However, it is true that your actual skill level should be roughly the same even after a short period of time with a new race. Even if you're like Diamond Protoss and you start playing Zerg, you're not going to start off your Zerg on a Bronze level, you're probably going to be more like Gold, and with some refinement eventually Plat or maybe even Diamond there as well. Familiarizing yourself with a race and the new matchups doesn't take very long, it's really your skill as a player that makes you Diamond. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But i think a competitive ladder and custom games do really hit most people. (custom games are bad yata yata ... its just the common hate making it bad). But i guess the save and load perfectionists are a bit left out. But you could try to convince Blizzard that the 1v1 ladder won't lose people playing it, if they made a ffa 1v1 option having its own mmr but no ladder points (so people will find equally strong people after a while). Still time until Hots. But i guess there are to many people buying accounts to off race and get their nice 80/20 stats and then retire haha. it would be a lose lose situation for Blizzard (less in 1v1 less people buying the game) And i guess that won't make those people happy. They basically want a reset mmr button, that keeps their old mmr in mind, so they can always switch back. PS: agree with the person above on the skill level as i change my race like my shoes and i have alot (probably thats why i find that need for more accounts strange) And also thanks to the OP for not putting a hurts esport into the topic, it would fit if you wanted it to fit sigh | ||
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