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On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse...
They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports.
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On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports.
They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2.
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On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP.
Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done?
To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game.
Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff.
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On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2.
Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers.
"You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!"
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On October 14 2011 05:49 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP. Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done? To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game? Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff.
No, the majority of time is dedicated to cinematics. Cinematics take so long to make compared to how long the actual video lasts. If you want to look at things that were broken, look at patch notes. Balance does count. They could dedicate the amount of people used to make cinematics, cosmetics, and flair to actually test things for balance.
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On October 14 2011 05:43 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:41 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:33 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:26 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:05 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 03:55 Hnnngg wrote:
Time to inject a new opinion... I don't give a fuck what MLG Lee says or thinks. I don't want to indirectly pay Blizzard so they can make up their single-player casual bullshit. I want to pay for esports, and if any percentage of that goes to Blizzard, then the money is getting squandered for whatever Blizzard wants to spend it on (single-player casual bullshit).
Theorycrafting right now, but I don't want MLG to be "fine". Fine is bullshit when it can be Good. Blizzard is choking out their IP, scarcity is real and it's inefficient to use our limited funds for what Blizzard wants (single-player casual bullshit).
Blizzard isn't screwing up, but they aren't helping. Their patches and balancing is just fixing their original fuck-ups. They don't (or shouldn't) balance for meta-game. So they just need to balance for the original content, which they could've done before they even shipped it out instead of focusing on other things they did (single-player casual bullshit).
Plenty of other non-Blizzard epsorts for you to pay for then. Also, you're idea of consistently more and more tournaments and content being "choking out their IP" seems pretty off to me. Yeah, because of a fucked-up company I should just abandon a genre within esports. Blizzard isn't making tournaments, Blizzcon is a joke. They are strangling grass-roots tournaments by forcing a 5k limit, you can't argue that the 5k limit helps anyone but Blizzard. And Blizzard taking money (i.e. choking) from MLG/ESL/etc. means that money is not given to MLG/ESL/etc. So, we can either give our money for more MLG/ESL/etc. or we can give it to Blizzard for more single-player! Oh wait, they're going to make the next two games no matter how much money we give them, we're giving them money for SC3. Too bad they're going to waste that money again on single-player casual bullshit. I'm not sure what your point is, there other other RTS games besides Blizzard games, they might not be esports because they suck. But you can either not pay tournaments at all or you can pay them and they are going to pay Blizzard. They don't have a problem with it like you do. Starcraft 2 has allowed them to make money, period. The expense of paying Blizzard is irrelevant when Blizzard has provided an entirely new area for profit that works. Basically I'm under the threat of an ultimatum, good esports infrastructure from Blizzard! We don't know who has a problem with what, because there is an NDA. I wonder why... MLG/ESL/etc would also make money without SC2, SC2 isn't keeping esports alive, and esports would be fine without it. Which is why I cannot fathom why you don't realize that Blizzard deal *works* for MLG and pretty much everyone else who matters. If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't use it, they aren't forced into paying for SC2, they choose to. That simple. Except they don't deserve to pay for it. We're not talking about legal issues, that discussion is pointless. The discussion should be whether or not Blizzard morally deserves the money, given how much work they put into SC2. It's well within their moral right to charge for it. You are free to disagree, that is how morals are. There is no standard, just popular opinion. Who cares what their moral right is frankly? It boils down to, does this actually help eSports: no. Does Blizzard even need this very very tiny income source? no. In the long run it seriously likely hurts them. They should just totally stay out of eSports... they are a game developer, but now they are taking a different role that really does NOT help any competitive game, and i don't believe any developer should take that level of control (and no others even do). They have the whole scene in a stranglehold from the start. So you're actually going to argue that Starcraft 2 hasn't helped esports?
They simply made a game, are you suggesting we should simply be happy because they manage to not make it completely broken for eSports (with constant patching); especially when they had BW as a base to go from in the first place. It's unfortunate they are the only developers producing an RTS which is appropriate for competitive play, but we don't have to just accept their actions because of that. Other people make eSports happen, and a scene completely out of Blizzards control was very helpful in keeping the Starcraft brand notorious and creating certain connections in everyones mind (like Korea and Starcraft). Yet Blizzard is quite happy to ignore that and even go to lawsuits, while even stealing ideas along the way where appropriate (they sure like their rocks on maps don't they, wonder how they thought up that).
It's beneficial both ways, or at least it should be, we are not forever in their debt for simply creating a game we all paid for.
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On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!"
They already do that essentially they're just not called royalties they're called licenses.
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On October 14 2011 05:41 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:36 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:33 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:26 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:05 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 03:55 Hnnngg wrote:
Time to inject a new opinion... I don't give a fuck what MLG Lee says or thinks. I don't want to indirectly pay Blizzard so they can make up their single-player casual bullshit. I want to pay for esports, and if any percentage of that goes to Blizzard, then the money is getting squandered for whatever Blizzard wants to spend it on (single-player casual bullshit).
Theorycrafting right now, but I don't want MLG to be "fine". Fine is bullshit when it can be Good. Blizzard is choking out their IP, scarcity is real and it's inefficient to use our limited funds for what Blizzard wants (single-player casual bullshit).
Blizzard isn't screwing up, but they aren't helping. Their patches and balancing is just fixing their original fuck-ups. They don't (or shouldn't) balance for meta-game. So they just need to balance for the original content, which they could've done before they even shipped it out instead of focusing on other things they did (single-player casual bullshit).
Plenty of other non-Blizzard epsorts for you to pay for then. Also, you're idea of consistently more and more tournaments and content being "choking out their IP" seems pretty off to me. Yeah, because of a fucked-up company I should just abandon a genre within esports. Blizzard isn't making tournaments, Blizzcon is a joke. They are strangling grass-roots tournaments by forcing a 5k limit, you can't argue that the 5k limit helps anyone but Blizzard. And Blizzard taking money (i.e. choking) from MLG/ESL/etc. means that money is not given to MLG/ESL/etc. So, we can either give our money for more MLG/ESL/etc. or we can give it to Blizzard for more single-player! Oh wait, they're going to make the next two games no matter how much money we give them, we're giving them money for SC3. Too bad they're going to waste that money again on single-player casual bullshit. I'm not sure what your point is, there other other RTS games besides Blizzard games, they might not be esports because they suck. But you can either not pay tournaments at all or you can pay them and they are going to pay Blizzard. They don't have a problem with it like you do. Starcraft 2 has allowed them to make money, period. The expense of paying Blizzard is irrelevant when Blizzard has provided an entirely new area for profit that works. Basically I'm under the threat of an ultimatum, good esports infrastructure from Blizzard! We don't know who has a problem with what, because there is an NDA. I wonder why... MLG/ESL/etc would also make money without SC2, SC2 isn't keeping esports alive, and esports would be fine without it. Which is why I cannot fathom why you don't realize that Blizzard deal *works* for MLG and pretty much everyone else who matters. If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't use it, they aren't forced into paying for SC2, they choose to. That simple. Except they don't deserve to pay for it. We're not talking about legal issues, that discussion is pointless. The discussion should be whether or not Blizzard morally deserves the money, given how much work they put into SC2. It's well within their moral right to charge for it. You are free to disagree, that is how morals are. There is no standard, just popular opinion. Who cares what their moral right is frankly? It boils down to, does this actually help eSports: no. Does Blizzard even need this very very tiny income source? no. In the long run it seriously likely hurts them. They should just totally stay out of eSports... they are a game developer, but now they are taking a different role that really does NOT help any competitive game, and i don't believe any developer should take that level of control (and no others even do). They have the whole scene in a stranglehold from the start.
First, is SC2 really the whole esports scene? If so, then WOW, Blizzard has REALLY done esports a HUGE service by pretty much totally creating what it is right now instead of suffocating it..
As someone else pointed out earlier, WoW had trouble becoming a serious esport b/c of balance issues. IE Blizzard stayed out of the esport aspect to much and that hurt WoW as an esport. I guess you want them to keep working to make SC2 as good and balanced as possible without any incentive? They made (imho) a really awesome game that's very fun to play and watch other's compete. How are they not entitled to a cut of the profits? Let's be realistic, every organization that cares about esports cares because it's profitable! (Of course there are individuals within each organization that are passionate about the gaming and competition, but ultimately $$$ is the bottom line. Period.).
Is it hurting esports that teams take a cut of a player's winnings? Does SlayerS have a SC2 team b/c they care about esports? NO. They do it for money!
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On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!"
They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC.
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On October 14 2011 05:55 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:43 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:41 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:33 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:26 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:05 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:00 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Plenty of other non-Blizzard epsorts for you to pay for then.
Also, you're idea of consistently more and more tournaments and content being "choking out their IP" seems pretty off to me. Yeah, because of a fucked-up company I should just abandon a genre within esports. Blizzard isn't making tournaments, Blizzcon is a joke. They are strangling grass-roots tournaments by forcing a 5k limit, you can't argue that the 5k limit helps anyone but Blizzard. And Blizzard taking money (i.e. choking) from MLG/ESL/etc. means that money is not given to MLG/ESL/etc. So, we can either give our money for more MLG/ESL/etc. or we can give it to Blizzard for more single-player! Oh wait, they're going to make the next two games no matter how much money we give them, we're giving them money for SC3. Too bad they're going to waste that money again on single-player casual bullshit. I'm not sure what your point is, there other other RTS games besides Blizzard games, they might not be esports because they suck. But you can either not pay tournaments at all or you can pay them and they are going to pay Blizzard. They don't have a problem with it like you do. Starcraft 2 has allowed them to make money, period. The expense of paying Blizzard is irrelevant when Blizzard has provided an entirely new area for profit that works. Basically I'm under the threat of an ultimatum, good esports infrastructure from Blizzard! We don't know who has a problem with what, because there is an NDA. I wonder why... MLG/ESL/etc would also make money without SC2, SC2 isn't keeping esports alive, and esports would be fine without it. Which is why I cannot fathom why you don't realize that Blizzard deal *works* for MLG and pretty much everyone else who matters. If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't use it, they aren't forced into paying for SC2, they choose to. That simple. Except they don't deserve to pay for it. We're not talking about legal issues, that discussion is pointless. The discussion should be whether or not Blizzard morally deserves the money, given how much work they put into SC2. It's well within their moral right to charge for it. You are free to disagree, that is how morals are. There is no standard, just popular opinion. Who cares what their moral right is frankly? It boils down to, does this actually help eSports: no. Does Blizzard even need this very very tiny income source? no. In the long run it seriously likely hurts them. They should just totally stay out of eSports... they are a game developer, but now they are taking a different role that really does NOT help any competitive game, and i don't believe any developer should take that level of control (and no others even do). They have the whole scene in a stranglehold from the start. So you're actually going to argue that Starcraft 2 hasn't helped esports? They simply made a game, are you suggesting we should simply be happy because they manage to not make it completely broken for eSports (with constant patching); especially when they had BW as a base to go from in the first place. It's unfortunate they are the only developers producing an RTS which is appropriate for competitive play, but we don't have to just accept their actions because of that. Other people make eSports happen, and a scene completely out of Blizzards control was very helpful in keeping the Starcraft brand notorious and creating certain connections in everyones mind (like Korea and Starcraft). It's beneficial both ways, or at least it should be, we are not forever in their debt for simply creating a game we all paid for.
It is not a debt, it's an opportunity to make money. Those other people who make esports happen are making money off it too.
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On October 14 2011 05:55 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They already do that essentially they're just not called royalties they're called licenses.
So Microsoft charges Blizzard a fraction of every dollar they make? Or did Blizzard buy a license for a onetime fee? Or am I misunderstanding and Blizzard hasn't paid Microsoft anything?
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On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC.
So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard.
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On October 14 2011 05:59 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They already do that essentially they're just not called royalties they're called licenses. So Microsoft charges Blizzard a fraction of every dollar they make? Or did Blizzard buy a license for a onetime fee? Or am I misunderstanding and Blizzard hasn't paid Microsoft anything?
Microsoft for the most part charges for their products based on usage. So if you have a Microsoft server with 10,000 customers connecting to it at a time you're going to have to pay a hell of a lot more than if you only had 100 customers connecting at a time. Any developer that makes products for Windows has paid Microsoft a relatively large amount of money as an opportunity to make even more money.
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On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard.
Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow.
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On October 14 2011 06:02 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:59 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They already do that essentially they're just not called royalties they're called licenses. So Microsoft charges Blizzard a fraction of every dollar they make? Or did Blizzard buy a license for a onetime fee? Or am I misunderstanding and Blizzard hasn't paid Microsoft anything? Microsoft for the most part charges for their products based on usage. So if you have a Microsoft server with 10,000 customers connecting to it at a time you're going to have to pay a hell of a lot more than if you only had 100 customers connecting at a time. Any developer that makes products for Windows has paid Microsoft a reflectively large amount of money as an opportunity to make even more money.
Reflectively large? As in hindsight determined it was too much? Blizzard is a multibillion dollar company, major tournaments aren't. Blizzard can afford to pay that money many times over, if MLG is getting 50% ad revenue taken away (allegedly) then they can't pay that many times over.
I'd like to see MLG have that money instead. In my mind, Blizzard has enough money from the stuff they do. Taking more money from other companies (MLG, ESL, IPL, etc.), who are insignificantly small in comparison seems like overkill.
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On October 14 2011 05:57 jnc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:41 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:33 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:30 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:26 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:05 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:00 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 03:55 Hnnngg wrote:
Time to inject a new opinion... I don't give a fuck what MLG Lee says or thinks. I don't want to indirectly pay Blizzard so they can make up their single-player casual bullshit. I want to pay for esports, and if any percentage of that goes to Blizzard, then the money is getting squandered for whatever Blizzard wants to spend it on (single-player casual bullshit).
Theorycrafting right now, but I don't want MLG to be "fine". Fine is bullshit when it can be Good. Blizzard is choking out their IP, scarcity is real and it's inefficient to use our limited funds for what Blizzard wants (single-player casual bullshit).
Blizzard isn't screwing up, but they aren't helping. Their patches and balancing is just fixing their original fuck-ups. They don't (or shouldn't) balance for meta-game. So they just need to balance for the original content, which they could've done before they even shipped it out instead of focusing on other things they did (single-player casual bullshit).
Plenty of other non-Blizzard epsorts for you to pay for then. Also, you're idea of consistently more and more tournaments and content being "choking out their IP" seems pretty off to me. Yeah, because of a fucked-up company I should just abandon a genre within esports. Blizzard isn't making tournaments, Blizzcon is a joke. They are strangling grass-roots tournaments by forcing a 5k limit, you can't argue that the 5k limit helps anyone but Blizzard. And Blizzard taking money (i.e. choking) from MLG/ESL/etc. means that money is not given to MLG/ESL/etc. So, we can either give our money for more MLG/ESL/etc. or we can give it to Blizzard for more single-player! Oh wait, they're going to make the next two games no matter how much money we give them, we're giving them money for SC3. Too bad they're going to waste that money again on single-player casual bullshit. I'm not sure what your point is, there other other RTS games besides Blizzard games, they might not be esports because they suck. But you can either not pay tournaments at all or you can pay them and they are going to pay Blizzard. They don't have a problem with it like you do. Starcraft 2 has allowed them to make money, period. The expense of paying Blizzard is irrelevant when Blizzard has provided an entirely new area for profit that works. Basically I'm under the threat of an ultimatum, good esports infrastructure from Blizzard! We don't know who has a problem with what, because there is an NDA. I wonder why... MLG/ESL/etc would also make money without SC2, SC2 isn't keeping esports alive, and esports would be fine without it. Which is why I cannot fathom why you don't realize that Blizzard deal *works* for MLG and pretty much everyone else who matters. If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't use it, they aren't forced into paying for SC2, they choose to. That simple. Except they don't deserve to pay for it. We're not talking about legal issues, that discussion is pointless. The discussion should be whether or not Blizzard morally deserves the money, given how much work they put into SC2. It's well within their moral right to charge for it. You are free to disagree, that is how morals are. There is no standard, just popular opinion. Who cares what their moral right is frankly? It boils down to, does this actually help eSports: no. Does Blizzard even need this very very tiny income source? no. In the long run it seriously likely hurts them. They should just totally stay out of eSports... they are a game developer, but now they are taking a different role that really does NOT help any competitive game, and i don't believe any developer should take that level of control (and no others even do). They have the whole scene in a stranglehold from the start. First, is SC2 really the whole esports scene? If so, then WOW, Blizzard has REALLY done esports a HUGE service by pretty much totally creating what it is right now instead of suffocating it.. As someone else pointed out earlier, WoW had trouble becoming a serious esport b/c of balance issues. IE Blizzard stayed out of the esport aspect to much and that hurt WoW as an esport. I guess you want them to keep working to make SC2 as good and balanced as possible without any incentive? They made (imho) a really awesome game that's very fun to play and watch other's compete. How are they not entitled to a cut of the profits? Let's be realistic, every organization that cares about esports cares because it's profitable! (Of course there are individuals within each organization that are passionate about the gaming and competition, but ultimately $$$ is the bottom line. Period.). Is it hurting esports that teams take a cut of a player's winnings? Does SlayerS have a SC2 team b/c they care about esports? NO. They do it for money!
There's so much wrong with your post it's unbelievable, you have a warped view of things..
Firstly, what the fuck why should eSports be an incentive to balance their game? They should just do it because they are a game developer and they want people to play on their ladder, and more people to buy the game and its expansions. If they didn't patch it then it would be completely fucked and hurt their sales so of course they wouldn't do that.
How are they not entitled to a cut of the profits? They sold 4.5 million copies of the game and got 100% of it. Fair enough cut i think, not to mention their expansions and other plans like custom maps they have to make money. How many revenue streams does the richest developer in the world need to have from a single game.
Also you seriously think that people are in eSports for the money, which is just a ridiculous assertion.. the BW scene was totally non-profit. Why should something that's trying to be a sport have to be a profit venture. Every tournament played is simply free promotion for Blizzard's game. It helps their sales no doubt. Half of all BW copies were sold in South Korea thanks to the popularity of the competitive scene, not that you'd find Blizzard admitting that.
eSports HELPS Blizzard without the need for them to take cuts of the money when there already is very little money. It should be both ways but SC2 has been totally one way; everything in the direction to benefit Blizzard regardless of if it effects the expansion of the game. Even if you do think they should take a cut, why do it now when the scene is trying to grow when you could do it later when it's done better without the developer interference.
On October 14 2011 06:04 jnc wrote:
Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow.
It's not bigger than ever, it might seem that way because it's happening right now but.. it's not.
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On October 14 2011 06:07 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Good point.
What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them.
Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They already do that essentially they're just not called royalties they're called licenses. So Microsoft charges Blizzard a fraction of every dollar they make? Or did Blizzard buy a license for a onetime fee? Or am I misunderstanding and Blizzard hasn't paid Microsoft anything? Microsoft for the most part charges for their products based on usage. So if you have a Microsoft server with 10,000 customers connecting to it at a time you're going to have to pay a hell of a lot more than if you only had 100 customers connecting at a time. Any developer that makes products for Windows has paid Microsoft a reflectively large amount of money as an opportunity to make even more money. Reflectively large? As in hindsight determined it was too much? Blizzard is a multibillion dollar company, major tournaments aren't. Blizzard can afford to pay that money many times over, if MLG is getting 50% ad revenue taken away (allegedly) then they can't pay that many times over. I'd like to see MLG have that money instead. In my mind, Blizzard has enough money from the stuff they do. Taking more money from other companies (MLG, ESL, IPL, etc.), who are insignificantly small in comparison seems like overkill.
I'd like to see myself have that money instead.
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On October 14 2011 06:04 jnc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow.
I think that's too extremist. There aren't two routes that this is happening. It's not too much money, but it's still more than necessary. It's somewhere in the middle, which is inefficient for esports. Esports needs as much money as it can get, Blizzard doesn't. Blizzard isn't going to go under if we don't give them more money, they're just charged with getting more money to line the tailor-made pockets of their collective corporate overmind.
I'd rather line Sundance's tailor-made pockets.
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On October 14 2011 05:51 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:49 Assirra wrote:On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP. Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done? To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game? Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff. No, the majority of time is dedicated to cinematics. Cinematics take so long to make compared to how long the actual video lasts. If you want to look at things that were broken, look at patch notes. Balance does count. They could dedicate the amount of people used to make cinematics, cosmetics, and flair to actually test things for balance.
Absolutely retarded. You think a bunch of dudes who know how to use Maya and Photoshop will be badass at balancing? It wouldn't surprise me if most of them don't even play the game. Its not even the same part of the studio, its a separate team.
Reading your post again it seems to be you saying fire anyone who doesn't do balance and hire balance people which is also retarded. Too many cooks spoil the broth.
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On October 14 2011 05:59 Treemonkeys wrote:
It is not a debt, it's an opportunity to make money. Those other people who make esports happen are making money off it too.
How do you know they are making money from it, you don't at all. It's in a growth period where money is being pooled in to try and build something but we don't have the info and it's too early to tell if that's even true. I think leaked info showed the GSL making a loss for a start, and i'm willing to bet NASL isn't going to make a profit either. There's not much profit in eSports there never has been and arguably it can easily be non-profit like the massively successful BW scene. Your posts are just pointless and inciting you don't actually have much of an argument except 'Blizzard can take the money so they should'.
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