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On October 14 2011 06:08 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:07 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 06:02 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:55 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible.
Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They already do that essentially they're just not called royalties they're called licenses. So Microsoft charges Blizzard a fraction of every dollar they make? Or did Blizzard buy a license for a onetime fee? Or am I misunderstanding and Blizzard hasn't paid Microsoft anything? Microsoft for the most part charges for their products based on usage. So if you have a Microsoft server with 10,000 customers connecting to it at a time you're going to have to pay a hell of a lot more than if you only had 100 customers connecting at a time. Any developer that makes products for Windows has paid Microsoft a reflectively large amount of money as an opportunity to make even more money. Reflectively large? As in hindsight determined it was too much? Blizzard is a multibillion dollar company, major tournaments aren't. Blizzard can afford to pay that money many times over, if MLG is getting 50% ad revenue taken away (allegedly) then they can't pay that many times over. I'd like to see MLG have that money instead. In my mind, Blizzard has enough money from the stuff they do. Taking more money from other companies (MLG, ESL, IPL, etc.), who are insignificantly small in comparison seems like overkill. I'd like to see myself have that money instead.
Well yeah, but if you had to choose between Blizzard and <insert Western Pro Gaming league here>, it's fairly obvious what would be better for esports.
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On October 14 2011 06:11 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:04 jnc wrote:On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Good point.
What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them.
Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow. I think that's too extremist. There aren't two routes that this is happening. It's not too much money, but it's still more than necessary. It's somewhere in the middle, which is inefficient for esports. Esports needs as much money as it can get, Blizzard doesn't. Blizzard isn't going to go under if we don't give them more money, they're just charged with getting more money to line the tailor-made pockets of their collective corporate overmind. I'd rather line Sundance's tailor-made pockets.
Then write a cheque directly to the dude if you're so desperate to white knight him.
This is how Sports work people. Take soccer, every year you pay FIFA for a footballing license then you pay UEFA for a European Footballing License then the National Association takes a cut of the TV money to do with as it pleases.
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On October 14 2011 05:51 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:49 Assirra wrote:On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP. Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done? To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game? Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff. No, the majority of time is dedicated to cinematics. Cinematics take so long to make compared to how long the actual video lasts. If you want to look at things that were broken, look at patch notes. Balance does count. They could dedicate the amount of people used to make cinematics, cosmetics, and flair to actually test things for balance.
So you wanted a stand-alone MP only version of the game? Have you played Bloodline Champions? I did, it was fun and pretty cool for an esport... but I (and several people I know) lost interest because there wasn't any SP... How is it doing as an esport now? You need to have people interested in the game for it to succeed! Esports is funded by sponsors. Sponsors give money based on viewrs (advertising revenue). More viewers (maybe people who maybe purchased SP but now like MP) = more esports.
Further, it's not like there's been only one balance patch. Imagine how many man hours ($$$) Blizzard would have needed to put in to get to where we are in terms of balance now! Consider that they are making balance changes based on statistics from thousands of games - and they still have in house testing before patches even hit the test server... as well as the statistics from the test server. It's been over a year and we're on patch 1.4 (and people still don't think we have balance) because balancing something like this is NOT as easy as making cinematics!
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On October 12 2011 20:41 roymarthyup wrote:
sigh thinking more and more about this makes me so sad at how blizzard is turning into this gigantic soulless corporation. i know not everything is soulless, but this one concept is just insane how they take the money that comes from other peoples hard work of creating and running a tournament
im high masters practicing alot cuz i wanna compete in tournamants for fun but i dunno how i feel about supporting such a concept... i just dont feel its fair for blizzard to take cuts from tournaments that they didnt create and build
i hope some company comes around and designs a super good esports game and doesnt charge money for tournaments to use it
or heck, blizzard with its billions of dollars should simply buy-out MLG and gomtv and every other tournament and simply run it themselves, and by that i mean blizzard would also be buying out all the employees of those other companies and having them run it for them.
I could actually support such a concept. If blizzard is running its own tournament, then sure, it gets all the money from it. I find that fair. And if blizzard buys out all the tournaments then it would make sense for them to get all the revenue from it. I see no problem with that.
But what blizzard is doing is taking cuts of tournament profits without buying out those tournaments... They are getting a cut of other peoples hard work... Sigh this concept i dont know if i can bring myself to support it
How about you turn that argument around look at it from Blizzard's point of view. Why should MLG receive all the profit for having people play a game that Blizzard spent millions of dollars to create and promote?
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There's a lot of talk about the growth of esports, but money is what makes esports grow. MLG making money, and then paying a cut to Blizzard, who then uses said money to provide post release support, is growth. I don't care how big and great a community is, if there is no money in it, there is no growth.
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On October 14 2011 06:12 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:51 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Assirra wrote:On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP. Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done? To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game? Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff. No, the majority of time is dedicated to cinematics. Cinematics take so long to make compared to how long the actual video lasts. If you want to look at things that were broken, look at patch notes. Balance does count. They could dedicate the amount of people used to make cinematics, cosmetics, and flair to actually test things for balance. Absolutely retarded. You think a bunch of dudes who know how to use Maya and Photoshop will be badass at balancing? It wouldn't surprise me if most of them don't even play the game. Its not even the same part of the studio, its a separate team. Reading your post again it seems to be you saying fire anyone who doesn't do balance and hire balance people which is also retarded. Too many cooks spoil the broth.
People to test balance. I want someone to test whether or not Guardian Shield damage reduction applies to Siege Tank attacks (hint, it didn't). They don't have to hire the Cinematic Team if they don't need one. They can use the money they would pay them to hire people to test balance. They can still have their small Balance Deciders, but they should've hired balance testers to test their balance, instead of riding on their customers to determine what is imbalanced or not (that is what has been happening by the way).
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On October 14 2011 06:14 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:11 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 06:04 jnc wrote:On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible.
Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow. I think that's too extremist. There aren't two routes that this is happening. It's not too much money, but it's still more than necessary. It's somewhere in the middle, which is inefficient for esports. Esports needs as much money as it can get, Blizzard doesn't. Blizzard isn't going to go under if we don't give them more money, they're just charged with getting more money to line the tailor-made pockets of their collective corporate overmind. I'd rather line Sundance's tailor-made pockets. Then write a cheque directly to the dude if you're so desperate to white knight him. This is how Sports work people. Take soccer, every year you pay FIFA for a footballing license then you pay UEFA for a European Footballing License then the National Association takes a cut of the TV money to do with as it pleases.
Write a check for exclusive view of the content? I've actually already done that, being an MLG member I won't see commercials and therefore Blizzard won't get any ad revenue from me. But everyone isn't an MLG member, that means that Blizzard is still getting money for... something, nobody has said it yet, people say balancing but paying them money to fix their fuckups isn't right.
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On October 14 2011 06:14 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:59 Treemonkeys wrote:
It is not a debt, it's an opportunity to make money. Those other people who make esports happen are making money off it too. How do you know they are making money from it, you don't at all. It's in a growth period where money is being pooled in to try and build something but we don't have the info and it's too early to tell if that's even true. I think leaked info showed the GSL making a loss for a start, and i'm willing to bet NASL isn't going to make a profit either. There's not much profit in eSports there never has been and arguably it can easily be non-profit like the massively successful BW scene. Your posts are just pointless and inciting you don't actually have much of an argument except 'Blizzard can take the money so they should'.
GSL made well over $2.5m this past year off of foreigner subscriptions alone. (that was in the leaked user info) MLG increased their Starcraft 2 involvement from test run to pro circuit almost immediately, and it's basically become their biggest title, with plans to keep it going that direction next year. Dreamhack just shelled out a ton of cash for a hockey stadium. I'd argue that these organizations are making quite the profit, and Blizzards take from it is hardly affecting their events as they just keep getting bigger and better.
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On October 14 2011 06:15 DusTerr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:51 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Assirra wrote:On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP. Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done? To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game? Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff. No, the majority of time is dedicated to cinematics. Cinematics take so long to make compared to how long the actual video lasts. If you want to look at things that were broken, look at patch notes. Balance does count. They could dedicate the amount of people used to make cinematics, cosmetics, and flair to actually test things for balance. So you wanted a stand-alone MP only version of the game? Have you played Bloodline Champions? I did, it was fun and pretty cool for an esport... but I (and several people I know) lost interest because there wasn't any SP... How is it doing as an esport now? You need to have people interested in the game for it to succeed! Esports is funded by sponsors. Sponsors give money based on viewrs (advertising revenue). More viewers (maybe people who maybe purchased SP but now like MP) = more esports. Further, it's not like there's been only one balance patch. Imagine how many man hours ($$$) Blizzard would have needed to put in to get to where we are in terms of balance now! Consider that they are making balance changes based on statistics from thousands of games - and they still have in house testing before patches even hit the test server... as well as the statistics from the test server. It's been over a year and we're on patch 1.4 (and people still don't think we have balance) because balancing something like this is NOT as easy as making cinematics!
I have played BLC, it hasn't succeeded because it's poor from a spectator point of view. It's just not a fun game to watch. I dare you to find SP from LoL, which people love watching. You don't need a SP for a successful game.
So they're using customers to save money they would spend on a balance team. And then they take our money from MLG so they continue to do... wait, weren't they the ones who are in charge of testing balance and using the money from MLG to pay for that? Then why are they using customers to.... GASP.
Balancing could've been done before launch, they decided to release an unbalanced game with a SP instead of a balanced MP game.
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On October 14 2011 06:16 Ysellian wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2011 20:41 roymarthyup wrote:
sigh thinking more and more about this makes me so sad at how blizzard is turning into this gigantic soulless corporation. i know not everything is soulless, but this one concept is just insane how they take the money that comes from other peoples hard work of creating and running a tournament
im high masters practicing alot cuz i wanna compete in tournamants for fun but i dunno how i feel about supporting such a concept... i just dont feel its fair for blizzard to take cuts from tournaments that they didnt create and build
i hope some company comes around and designs a super good esports game and doesnt charge money for tournaments to use it
or heck, blizzard with its billions of dollars should simply buy-out MLG and gomtv and every other tournament and simply run it themselves, and by that i mean blizzard would also be buying out all the employees of those other companies and having them run it for them.
I could actually support such a concept. If blizzard is running its own tournament, then sure, it gets all the money from it. I find that fair. And if blizzard buys out all the tournaments then it would make sense for them to get all the revenue from it. I see no problem with that.
But what blizzard is doing is taking cuts of tournament profits without buying out those tournaments... They are getting a cut of other peoples hard work... Sigh this concept i dont know if i can bring myself to support it How about you turn that argument around look at it from Blizzard's point of view. Why should MLG receive all the profit for having people play a game that Blizzard spent millions of dollars to create and promote?
MLG is clearly promotion for the game itself and everyone involved bought copies of the game, therefore paying for their development costs. It's just free advertisement potentially leading to more sales and continuing hype for the expansions. You say 'all the profit' like MLG is going to be raking in tons of money.
There is not much profit in eSports! I don't know how many times this has to be repeated. And again look at the BW scene if you want to see why leaving the scene alone to develop itself is preferable. To this day its still going strong with salaries, team houses, well funded events and good sponsors. There's no benefit to taking a cut other than to Blizzard, i don't understand how people can be so gung-ho for eSports constantly then arguing in favour of something that simply lines Blizzard's already massively fat pockets.
On October 14 2011 06:22 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:14 infinity2k9 wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Treemonkeys wrote:
It is not a debt, it's an opportunity to make money. Those other people who make esports happen are making money off it too. How do you know they are making money from it, you don't at all. It's in a growth period where money is being pooled in to try and build something but we don't have the info and it's too early to tell if that's even true. I think leaked info showed the GSL making a loss for a start, and i'm willing to bet NASL isn't going to make a profit either. There's not much profit in eSports there never has been and arguably it can easily be non-profit like the massively successful BW scene. Your posts are just pointless and inciting you don't actually have much of an argument except 'Blizzard can take the money so they should'. GSL made well over $2.5m this past year off of foreigner subscriptions alone. (that was in the leaked user info) MLG increased their Starcraft 2 involvement from test run to pro circuit almost immediately, and it's basically become their biggest title, with plans to keep it going that direction next year. Dreamhack just shelled out a ton of cash for a hockey stadium. I'd argue that these organizations are making quite the profit, and Blizzards take from it is hardly affecting their events as they just keep getting bigger and better.
It's not $2.5m profit thought is it... now work out the costs of the prize money, the venues, the salaries to all the people involved, paying k-pop groups to perform, etc. $2.5m isn't as much as you think. Indications suggest the GSL certainly hasn't been as popular as expected and i'd expect that likely affects projected revenues as well.
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On October 14 2011 06:20 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:14 FreudianTrip wrote:On October 14 2011 06:11 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 06:04 jnc wrote:On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:
[quote]
not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow. I think that's too extremist. There aren't two routes that this is happening. It's not too much money, but it's still more than necessary. It's somewhere in the middle, which is inefficient for esports. Esports needs as much money as it can get, Blizzard doesn't. Blizzard isn't going to go under if we don't give them more money, they're just charged with getting more money to line the tailor-made pockets of their collective corporate overmind. I'd rather line Sundance's tailor-made pockets. Then write a cheque directly to the dude if you're so desperate to white knight him. This is how Sports work people. Take soccer, every year you pay FIFA for a footballing license then you pay UEFA for a European Footballing License then the National Association takes a cut of the TV money to do with as it pleases. Write a check for exclusive view of the content? I've actually already done that, being an MLG member I won't see commercials and therefore Blizzard won't get any ad revenue from me. But everyone isn't an MLG member, that means that Blizzard is still getting money for... something, nobody has said it yet, people say balancing but paying them money to fix their fuckups isn't right.
Yeah bro I'm sure Sundance is jumping for joy at your 9 bucks if all this money Blizzard is stealing is so terrible.
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On October 12 2011 20:24 mnck wrote:
Some facts and some sources would be nice. Otherwise this discussion seems pretty pointless!
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On October 14 2011 06:25 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:20 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 06:14 FreudianTrip wrote:On October 14 2011 06:11 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 06:04 jnc wrote:On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:
[quote]
They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. Maybe when major tournaments stop using SC2 because it's too expensive we can all blame Blizzard for killing esports... Until then, what are you really complaining about? Esports is currently bigger than it's ever been and continuing to grow. I think that's too extremist. There aren't two routes that this is happening. It's not too much money, but it's still more than necessary. It's somewhere in the middle, which is inefficient for esports. Esports needs as much money as it can get, Blizzard doesn't. Blizzard isn't going to go under if we don't give them more money, they're just charged with getting more money to line the tailor-made pockets of their collective corporate overmind. I'd rather line Sundance's tailor-made pockets. Then write a cheque directly to the dude if you're so desperate to white knight him. This is how Sports work people. Take soccer, every year you pay FIFA for a footballing license then you pay UEFA for a European Footballing License then the National Association takes a cut of the TV money to do with as it pleases. Write a check for exclusive view of the content? I've actually already done that, being an MLG member I won't see commercials and therefore Blizzard won't get any ad revenue from me. But everyone isn't an MLG member, that means that Blizzard is still getting money for... something, nobody has said it yet, people say balancing but paying them money to fix their fuckups isn't right. Yeah bro I'm sure Sundance is jumping for joy at your 9 bucks if all this money Blizzard is stealing is so terrible.
Except they can't steal my money if I don't watch ads because I'm a member. It's quite beautiful.
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On October 14 2011 06:24 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:16 Ysellian wrote:On October 12 2011 20:41 roymarthyup wrote:
sigh thinking more and more about this makes me so sad at how blizzard is turning into this gigantic soulless corporation. i know not everything is soulless, but this one concept is just insane how they take the money that comes from other peoples hard work of creating and running a tournament
im high masters practicing alot cuz i wanna compete in tournamants for fun but i dunno how i feel about supporting such a concept... i just dont feel its fair for blizzard to take cuts from tournaments that they didnt create and build
i hope some company comes around and designs a super good esports game and doesnt charge money for tournaments to use it
or heck, blizzard with its billions of dollars should simply buy-out MLG and gomtv and every other tournament and simply run it themselves, and by that i mean blizzard would also be buying out all the employees of those other companies and having them run it for them.
I could actually support such a concept. If blizzard is running its own tournament, then sure, it gets all the money from it. I find that fair. And if blizzard buys out all the tournaments then it would make sense for them to get all the revenue from it. I see no problem with that.
But what blizzard is doing is taking cuts of tournament profits without buying out those tournaments... They are getting a cut of other peoples hard work... Sigh this concept i dont know if i can bring myself to support it How about you turn that argument around look at it from Blizzard's point of view. Why should MLG receive all the profit for having people play a game that Blizzard spent millions of dollars to create and promote? MLG is clearly promotion for the game itself and everyone involved bought copies of the game, therefore paying for their development costs. It's just free advertisement potentially leading to more sales and continuing hype for the expansions. You say 'all the profit' like MLG is going to be raking in tons of money. There is not much profit in eSports! I don't know how many times this has to be repeated. And again look at the BW scene if you want to see why leaving the scene alone to develop itself is preferable. To this day its still going strong with salaries, team houses, well funded events and good sponsors. There's no benefit to taking a cut other than to Blizzard, i don't understand how people can be so gung-ho for eSports constantly then arguing in favour of something that simply lines Blizzard's already massively fat pockets.
In one country.
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wowza, i never knew that bliz gets a chunk of the tournament money, good that you brought this up
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On October 14 2011 06:27 FreudianTrip wrote:
In one country.
Uhh.. why is that relevant? It's the working model. If there's interest in the country then the model will work anywhere. It's nobodies fault that there was not enough interest elsewhere to maintain a scene so what's the point in even saying it. If you are trying to suggest Blizzard's involvement could have made the BW scene even more successful please go on because i'd like to know how that conclusion could be made.
Also i laughed at the guy saying the money is good because it goes towards balancing the game. Firstly how much does it actually cost to do that, second if Blizzard literally charged for a balance patch would you be fine with it then as well?
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On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard.
You pay a lot more for these products as a business than you do as a personal user. This doesn't include their server OS, or support that comes with it.
AutoCAD is $1000 for ONE license. You have to pay for a subscription to get tech support on an individual bias.
On October 14 2011 06:31 infinity2k9 wrote:Uhh.. why is that relevant? It's the working model. If there's interest in the country then the model will work anywhere. It's nobodies fault that there was not enough interest elsewhere to maintain a scene so what's the point in even saying it. If you are trying to suggest Blizzard's involvement could have made the BW scene even more successful please go on because i'd like to know how that conclusion could be made. Also i laughed at the guy saying the money is good because it goes towards balancing the game. Firstly how much does it actually cost to do that, second if Blizzard literally charged for a balance patch would you be fine with it then as well?
You think David Kim just sits down one day in his office and decides on what needs to be changed and whips up the code himself? They have a TEAM of people that have the one job of balancing the game. They don't work for free.
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On October 14 2011 06:33 Cataphract wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:32 Hnnngg wrote:
Why be a realist when being on a forum, doesn't seems conducive.
Good point. What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them. Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. You pay a lot more for these products as a business than you do as a personal user. This doesn't include their server OS, or support that comes with it. AutoCAD is $1000 for ONE license. You have to pay for a subscription to get tech support on an individual bias.
$1000? Well, I've spent more on WoW by myself.
Whereas the only percentage we have (50%) is a lot lot lot.
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On October 14 2011 06:18 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:12 FreudianTrip wrote:On October 14 2011 05:51 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Assirra wrote:On October 14 2011 05:40 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:36 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:17 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:10 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:03 gatorling wrote:
If Blizzard gets too greedy. The market will punish them, there are plenty of other games out there that would love to be THE e-sport game.
There are plenty of games that WANT to be the e-sport game, but there is only one that I want to watch, Starcraft 2. And I think Blizzard has every right to get a share of money from tournaments. Man, the guy above me REALLY hates the single-player campaign. I would still bet that Blizzard made more money from people that only played that or enjoyed both SP and MP over those that only play MP. Being a WoW PvP player, you are always on the backburner to PvE. I see the same thing happening with SC2, except SC2 has already started with so much potential from the laurels of BW whereas WoW had a community to force it to have some semblance of competition. SC2 multiplayer is being throttled by the single-player, and Blizzard wants money from the tournaments. I'm not talking about balancing, I'm talking about time, energy, and money. The majority of the content of the original SC2 box is single-player. But because of great companies like MLG, we can have content outside of that original box. Blizzard only gave us box content, working years and years on it. But they didn't work for years on multiplayer, or balancing, or anything esports related. I don't understand why people think Blizzard is responsible for anything but single-player when talking about content. Wait, MP is being throttled by SP? I get how that happened in WoW, but explain how that's happening in SC2? First, the entire beta period was testing what part of the game? The same part of the game they spent time balancing and creating maps and a ladder system for.. MP (how well they've done isn't relevant). Everything they've done since release has also been MP related: *Balance patches (we're on 1.4 now) were ALL for MP (if you play any SP, all the original stats are still there). *All of the maps that blizzard created and have added to the ladder are for MP (sure you can use them vs AI also). *Master League and then GM being added. *updates to the observer overlays etc.. They have to throttle it. They don't have unlimited time and manpower, so they have to split the time between SP and MP. All the bulletpoints could've been with the box if they spent their time with MP instead of SP. Isn't this exactly why blizzard doesn't release games before its done? To make sure all those bulletpoints are in the box or please tell me what was so broken when you bought the game? Balance doesn't count btw, there are only a limited amount of testers and ppl nonstop find new ways to do stuff. No, the majority of time is dedicated to cinematics. Cinematics take so long to make compared to how long the actual video lasts. If you want to look at things that were broken, look at patch notes. Balance does count. They could dedicate the amount of people used to make cinematics, cosmetics, and flair to actually test things for balance. Absolutely retarded. You think a bunch of dudes who know how to use Maya and Photoshop will be badass at balancing? It wouldn't surprise me if most of them don't even play the game. Its not even the same part of the studio, its a separate team. Reading your post again it seems to be you saying fire anyone who doesn't do balance and hire balance people which is also retarded. Too many cooks spoil the broth. People to test balance. I want someone to test whether or not Guardian Shield damage reduction applies to Siege Tank attacks (hint, it didn't). They don't have to hire the Cinematic Team if they don't need one. They can use the money they would pay them to hire people to test balance. They can still have their small Balance Deciders, but they should've hired balance testers to test their balance, instead of riding on their customers to determine what is imbalanced or not (that is what has been happening by the way).
It doesn't work that way, larger teams doesn't always equal better results. Besides, you're now asking Blizzard to reallocate funding from projects the community loves to increasing the size of the balance team when that may or may not have any actual effect on anything.
The most it would do at best is speed up the rate at which balance patches are applied (which according to Blizzard they think is too fast as is) and at worst make balancing harder to do because with each new person brings with them differing opinions on how to proceed.
The problem with the typical SC2 player is that they think any perceived imbalance should be patched immediately when Blizzard's entire mindset is to take things slowly and let the metagame evolve on its own. Your suggestion goes completely against that mindset, and they aren't changing that mindset so don't bother.
It took Brood War many years to become as balanced as it is, if Blizz just releases patches every week it won't accomplish a damn thing beside making the metagame stale and the game frustrating to play.
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On October 14 2011 06:36 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 06:33 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 06:01 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:59 Cataphract wrote:On October 14 2011 05:49 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:46 Treemonkeys wrote:On October 14 2011 05:44 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:42 DusTerr wrote:On October 14 2011 05:37 Hnnngg wrote:On October 14 2011 05:34 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
Good point.
What I want to know is why didn't SC2 come with the ability to travel the galaxy FOR REAL and see the real zerg, terran, and protoss? Blizzard has enough money that they could have made it happen, they are just fucking greedy so lets boycott them.
Who's with me? Because that's not possible. Idealism != impossible. Things could be better. They aren't because of Blizzard. Fuck them for making things worse. not making things better != making things worse... They're not being inactive. They are actively siphoning money from esports. They can't use all that money to reinvest back into esports. They are taking a fraction of a total sum of money would not have been available to esports at all without Starcraft 2. Microsoft should start doing the same, taking royalties from everyone making money off their computers. "You wouldn't be able to make money without our computers, give us a fraction!" They do. It is called having Windows or Office on your PC. So it's a onetime fee? I'm pretty sure major tournaments pay that to Blizzard ontop of the part of ad revenue going to Blizzard. You pay a lot more for these products as a business than you do as a personal user. This doesn't include their server OS, or support that comes with it. AutoCAD is $1000 for ONE license. You have to pay for a subscription to get tech support on an individual bias. $1000? Well, I've spent more on WoW by myself. Whereas the only percentage we have (50%) is a lot lot lot.
Ultimately the percentage doesn't matter. Either it's ok for Blizzard to skim revenue or it's not. If it is, then they skim what they want. If it isn't, then even 1% is too much.
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EPT
