Poll: Hardest race to play at each level of SC2? - Page 11

TheAntZ

Israel6248 Posts

October 02 2011 17:28 GMT

#201

On October 03 2011 02:07 ChoiBoi wrote:
What can Protoss do? Against Terran, they probably already have a robo and already have stalkers, so stalkers+observer.

...
hey, what can zerg do? zerg can have spore crawlers and queens!
What i just said made about as much sense as your statement above

Arcanne

United States1519 Posts

October 02 2011 17:32 GMT

#202

This is basically a pseudo balance thread

tuho12345

4482 Posts

October 02 2011 17:37 GMT

#203

Where's the option my race is the hardest? lol seriously this will all come down to balance qq.

docvoc

United States5491 Posts

October 02 2011 17:40 GMT

#204

On October 03 2011 02:13 Ryndika wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 03 2011 02:09 docvoc wrote:

On October 03 2011 01:54 Ryndika wrote:

On October 03 2011 01:54 Passionless wrote:

On October 03 2011 01:49 Ryndika wrote:

On October 03 2011 01:45 AnalThermometer wrote:

On October 03 2011 01:31 Passionless wrote:
Wow people actually think Zerg is difficult to play at bronze-diamond levels?
Most protoss / terrans dont even think to wall off in bronze so zerglings can end the game at any time in lower leagues. And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
I never knew team liquid was so zerg biased.

Gotta agree with this. I believe the root of it is Idra being so popular, low level Zerg players attempt to mimic his play before they can handle it. If you do aggressive play and cheese as Zerg it's not any more difficult than the other two. Proxy hatches or baneling busts will get you to diamond in 1 day, people don't check their bases or scout.

6pool also gets you to masters. Does this mean Zerg is easy?

And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.

Im sure I lose 30% of my games because of hard micro as Z. Its lower actions but more complicated. T/P Simpler but more actions.

Oh do tell, explain this "hard micro" as Z!
I'm interested.

no need to be offensive but I explain:
It requires more thought process. TvP MU also requires a lot thought process imo. TvZ activating stim for example requires thought process. Splitting marines does not.

I'm not saying either race is harder or easier. I'm not even saying if Z, T, P is hardest to micro or macro.

Guys lets be honest here, zergs tend to really over-inflate how hard the race is to play. Yes, its difficult, but its difficult in a different way. Instead of understanding how to cast perfect force-feilds, or how to perfectly split marines, zergs have to inject well. Toss has to CB and Terrans have to scan or drop mules. Zergs tend to Q.Q (QQ face) because of scouting, its not difficult to inject even in a difficult battle (i have no experience in GM or M) but the difficulty lies in having the units out. That said, late game zerg is easy mode zerg is about surviving the mid game since early game and late game they are hard to crack. The units require fairly little micro (lets be honest how often do you see someone micro a ling or a bling in their army of 80 lings and 20 blings) and they are very, very fast. Zergs need to make the right units at the right time, and drone when not, its not that hard if you have some game sense, and are constantly either sacking an ovie or using one to scout what your opponent is doing. You have 100 min scouts that you can make a lot of, and they are hard to kill, can drop units, and spread creep, use them. Zergs QQ because they attempt to be like Idra, while not fully understanding what he does, why does it when he does it. Its like if i just took a game from MC and said yeah i'm doing this every game, it would be wrong and i'd be pissed off. I'm not trying to flame, all i'm saying is that zerg is a bit over-inflated for what zerg takes, especially since its them and terran, not protoss who tend to be most visible in pro tournaments, making it seem like on a high level toss is the hardest.

Nice wall of text. Did you read what I said?
I also dislike your attitude where you assume people who play certain race are certain type of people.

What I was able to read from your text I got one thought. Why you make such effot to convince this one race is harder than another? When you play ladder at your own level no game should be easy when played standard or something other than stupid all-in or 6pool. ^^

you misunderstood me, sorry if i was not clear, its not that a certain type of people play the race at all. However, the ones that stand out to me (its probably because i watch a lot on youtube) are zerg players that adore Idra and on any one of his losses scream imba-toss/imba-T on youtube. Also i'm not convincing anyone, i'm just letting out a bit of rage is all

, i'll summarize my point to what i thought it was to make it clear: at any level one should be playing against people of their own skill (like you said) however, at any level each race is more difficult in each matchup, i have trouble with PVZ personally. However, zerg has gotten a name for its base, it fairly well known that most zergs think that zerg is by far the hardest race to play and i disagree i think that each race has its own level where each race can be more or less difficult to play. Thats why i brought up the toss evidence at the end and the Idra evidence in the middle or so.

vahgar.r24

India465 Posts

October 02 2011 17:51 GMT

#205

Nice OP man, but still dont get why zerg is not the hardest at all levels..hmm

zakmaa

Canada525 Posts

October 02 2011 17:56 GMT

#206

Seems that on average Zerg is the hardest race..

United States2586 Posts

October 02 2011 17:57 GMT

#207

People don't give enough credit as to how much focus PvT requires. When you're out in the middle of the map, if you don't have the multi tasking to keep your observers alive within vision of his army, you need lightning fast reaction speed when he appears, and even more speed to be able to macro simultaneously.

The worst thing a protoss can do is look away for less than a second, to find himself EMP'ed when he was warping in. Everyone says injecting makes zerg the hardest. It's a lot of concentration at high levels. You can watch several pro toss streams to find they actually won't macro/spend their money at all when they're maneuvering to fight. It's so crucially important to engage perfectly it doesn't even matter if you're floating 2000 minerals with 12 gates off cooldown. Protoss has a much higher skill ceiling than credited for.

Also, speaking purely of mechanics, Zerg only look at their base to inject. They create all of their supply/units off of a single hotkey. Protoss need to slam down pylons, production facilities, warp-in, and chrono boost. The only difference is that zerg is a mobile, swarming race, which makes it easy as a Protoss to sit at your base and macro mindlessly.

butchji

Germany1531 Posts

October 02 2011 17:57 GMT

#208

On October 02 2011 17:18 Binabik wrote:

Show nested quote +

APM and multitasking is no problem in GM, decision making seperates weak from strong players.

)))) Look at SjoW or GoOdy or... and those are not only GrandMasters but top pros. A lot of GM don't have multitasking.

Lobber

Canada414 Posts

October 02 2011 17:59 GMT

#209

On October 03 2011 02:57 butchji wrote:

Show nested quote +

)))) Look at SjoW or GoOdy or... and those are not only GrandMasters but top pros. A lot of GM don't have multitasking.

I played goody last night... And lost... But he really didn't seem like some high level pro or anything, his multitasking wasn't amazing and his engagement positioning was so-so... Though it was PvP so who knows?

Yoshi Kirishima

United States10383 Posts

October 02 2011 18:02 GMT

#210

I think you should change the last poll to GM, because really we only have a couple real pros here. Anyone else' opinion wouldn't be helpful to this kind of study, really, since they are not actually pros.

Twistacles

Canada1327 Posts

October 02 2011 18:06 GMT

#211

As a mid masters, this is what I FEEL to be true, assuming MACRO games:

Gold and under: Zerg Hardest
Plat-Dia: Zerg hardest
High Dia-Mid Master: terran hardest
GM: I have no idea cause Im not gm

I feel it's too easy for the zerg to see your comp, make units, crush your push, drone and grab infinity bases, and turtle till broodlords for the gg. The terran has to be constantly aggressive and if the aggression messes up once, he can potentially lose the game.

Also, the terran has to have great splits and micro whereas the zerg just has to flank/position well and amove

PenguinWithNuke

250 Posts

October 02 2011 18:08 GMT

#212

IMO, playing Terran seems to be the hardest. "Tapping" is an acquired skill, and is very easy to forget about. There's a lot of multitasking involved with Terran, not to mention all the variance of the spellcasters (ghost and raven -- banshees aren't spellcasters), and abilities (tank sieging, stim). Terran is hard because it has a huge, specialized toolkit, and it's difficult to learn it.

Zerg has easier macro (no tapping, just select hatches and hit sdddddzzzz). The hard part is knowing when to drone, when not to drone. It's pretty easy in bronze league -- essentially drone all the time, or when you're not being attacked. Spines rape gateway units. Zerg's only spellcaster (fuck corrupters, they don't qualify) isn't easy to use, but it's very good.

Protoss has pretty easy macro (hit W once in a while), but the hard part about Protoss is the unit composition, IMO. Protoss units don't die. It has two spellcasters (sentry and HT, phoenix doesn't really count). They're not that hard to use, but they're not easy either.

I think that Terran is hardest to play (I suck at Terran). It takes great multitasking to play terran.

I play zerg. No bias here.

RandomAccount#106470

Lithuania1506 Posts

October 02 2011 18:08 GMT

#213

--- Nuked ---

ThyHate

240 Posts

October 02 2011 18:09 GMT

#214

protoss hardest to play at pro level ? Is this some kind of joke ?

humbre

353 Posts

October 02 2011 18:12 GMT

#215

On October 03 2011 02:57 butchji wrote:

Show nested quote +

)))) Look at SjoW or GoOdy or... and those are not only GrandMasters but top pros. A lot of GM don't have multitasking.

look on elfi who has half of sjow or goodys apm (not that old apm means anything it was mostly useless spam anyway), clicking 10 times to move army into one place instead of 1 doesnt make u good in multitasking

dave333

United States915 Posts

October 02 2011 18:16 GMT

#216

Bronze-Gold; Zerg is easily the hardest. It's a whose mechanics you actually need to understand, and the bad one base plays vs. its weakness to allins makes it all the worse.

Plat-Diamond: terran. Honestly ZvT in diamond was the easiest matchup for me, I literally never lost. All you have to do is a. stop their allins or b. make a shit ton of banelings/roaches/mutas/lings and rofl stomp their poor packed up marines. I imagine the same thing goes for terran; stop poorly done allins, make collossi, steamroll.

Masters: hard to say, i actually feel like the game is pretty balanced at the masters level lol. probably protoss because of 1-1-1

GM-Pro: Apparently protoss cause they are doing bad lol.

secretary bird

447 Posts

October 02 2011 18:19 GMT

#217

On October 03 2011 01:38 msjakofsky wrote:
people are not able to comprehend the difference between "hardest to play" and "hardest to succeed with"

What is the difference?

It is always easy to be unsuccesful but if you re trying to win but cant it was too hard.

Unless you mean the skill cap for Protoss in GM for example isnt high enough so its not harder to play but they cant actually play at a higher level to get the win because its not possible to win if the terran or zerg plays too good or something?

RoboBob

United States798 Posts

October 02 2011 18:26 GMT

#218

On October 03 2011 02:07 ChoiBoi wrote:
The only reason people say that Zerg is much harder is because unlike other races, we don't have a "forgive for not scouting" countermeasure. I'm going to say I'm Zerg, and it might be biased, but hear me out:

*Edit: This is meant as a lower-league argument, not a high level, since high levels would naturally scout.

If Terran goes 2port banshee with cloak, what can a Terran do?
They already have marines and scan capabilities, so unless they came RIGHT after a mule, Terran should be relatively fine.

What can Protoss do? Against Terran, they probably already have a robo and already have stalkers, so stalkers+observer.

What can Zerg do? Nothing, lol. The only real anti-air we have are queens, and they are quite fragile if you just micro your banshees. We'd have to make extra queens ahead of time, and then we'd have to create spores assuming that we even have an evo chamber. This is all assuming that no one scouted.

Another case, if a toss goes DT, what can Terran do? Scan and done

What can Protoss do? Assuming you didn't 4 gate all-in or something of that variant, you probably have a robo and can chrono out an obs. If you got lucky and saw the blur, you could forcefield the ramp to keep it out to bide for some time.

What can Zerg do? Hopefully we have an evo chamber, and spores take long enough that one dt can snipe most of them or just kill as many drones as possible until detection comes out. A dt rush will also come before lair hits in, so no overseer.

The other races are much more forgiving if you didn't scout. Zerg relies on processing scouting information as the blueprint of their gameplan. The other races can just tweak theirs a bit and they're fine (this might be a little exaggerated, but it's to prove a point).

Zerg was, in BW, capable of holding all those off without a sitch. Overlords were already detectors, and instead of roaches, they had hydras, which are anti-air. Protoss was generally the same, and Terran had a separate building that could scan, so no shared energy with something like muling.

I think something that you're forgetting is that Zerg also has some amazing scouting options that other races don't. Creep tumors are awesome for spotting pushes, and when you get overlords parked over every expo you know exactly where your opponent is expanding and when. And your basic unit, Zerglings, come in pairs so its very very cheap to park single units all over the map for vision.

Zerg also has very cheap infastructure. 2 port cloak banshee requires a ton of investment; 100 gas for factory, 200 gas for starports, 50 gas for 2 tech labs, 200 gas for cloak, 200 gas for first two banshees. Thats 750 gas. As a Zerg you're looking at 100 gas for lair and 50 gas for an overseer. Thats it. You only need 150 gas to defend against a 750 gas push; Queens alone can handle the banshees themselves.

And unlike scans, overseers are permanent units with useful spells. And unlike observers, they have 200 friggin hitpoints, move fast, and build 3x as quickly without taking up any production capacity.

I would certainly agree that Zerg has the most trouble scouting in the early game. But you've also got to consider they get fantastic, persitent vision in the mid/late game. No race should be the best at everything.

Joey Wheeler

Korea (North)276 Posts

October 02 2011 18:35 GMT

#219

On October 03 2011 02:37 tuho12345 wrote:
Where's the option my race is the hardest? lol seriously this will all come down to balance qq.

Many people misunderstand the concept of race balance =/= race difficulty. A-clicking may be underpowered but that doesn't mean it's hard.

Ermac

336 Posts

October 02 2011 18:35 GMT

#220

On October 03 2011 02:59 Lobber wrote:

Show nested quote +