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Poll: Hardest race to play at each level of SC2? - Page 10

Forum Index > SC2 General
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eleaf
Profile Joined September 2011
526 Posts
October 02 2011 16:53 GMT
#181
Weird, we have even more Grandmaster players on TL than Diamond and Master combined ....

This poll is totally ruined by trolls.
Passionless
Profile Joined August 2011
United States18 Posts
October 02 2011 16:54 GMT
#182
On October 03 2011 01:49 Ryndika wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2011 01:45 AnalThermometer wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:31 Passionless wrote:
Wow people actually think Zerg is difficult to play at bronze-diamond levels?
Most protoss / terrans dont even think to wall off in bronze so zerglings can end the game at any time in lower leagues. And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
I never knew team liquid was so zerg biased.


Gotta agree with this. I believe the root of it is Idra being so popular, low level Zerg players attempt to mimic his play before they can handle it. If you do aggressive play and cheese as Zerg it's not any more difficult than the other two. Proxy hatches or baneling busts will get you to diamond in 1 day, people don't check their bases or scout.

6pool also gets you to masters. Does this mean Zerg is easy?

Show nested quote +
And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
Im sure I lose 30% of my games because of hard micro as Z. Its lower actions but more complicated. T/P Simpler but more actions.

Oh do tell, explain this "hard micro" as Z!
I'm interested.
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 16:58:39
October 02 2011 16:54 GMT
#183
On October 03 2011 01:54 Passionless wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2011 01:49 Ryndika wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:45 AnalThermometer wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:31 Passionless wrote:
Wow people actually think Zerg is difficult to play at bronze-diamond levels?
Most protoss / terrans dont even think to wall off in bronze so zerglings can end the game at any time in lower leagues. And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
I never knew team liquid was so zerg biased.


Gotta agree with this. I believe the root of it is Idra being so popular, low level Zerg players attempt to mimic his play before they can handle it. If you do aggressive play and cheese as Zerg it's not any more difficult than the other two. Proxy hatches or baneling busts will get you to diamond in 1 day, people don't check their bases or scout.

6pool also gets you to masters. Does this mean Zerg is easy?

And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
Im sure I lose 30% of my games because of hard micro as Z. Its lower actions but more complicated. T/P Simpler but more actions.

Oh do tell, explain this "hard micro" as Z!
I'm interested.

no need to be offensive but I explain:
It requires more thought process. TvP MU also requires a lot thought process imo. TvZ activating stim for example requires thought process. Splitting marines does not.

I'm not saying either race is harder or easier. I'm not even saying if Z, T, P is hardest to micro or macro.
as useful as teasalt
mprs
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2933 Posts
October 02 2011 16:55 GMT
#184
I don't understand why it would be different across leagues. As a Protoss player, there is an entire dimension of decision-making that I don't really have to think about (making probes vs making drones). Obviously, having timing attacks or number of probes lined up with expansions is necessary (aka stop probes at this time or pause for this time), but it isn't an every-second decision that could lose you the game like it is for Zerg. I would assume that the higher level you are, the more refined, dusted, and thin your droning is. Which means that making one extra drone at the wrong time could lose you the game.

+ Show Spoiler +
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
We talkin about PRACTICE
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
October 02 2011 16:57 GMT
#185
the thing is that the toss are ok at mid level but once you get a bit higher, the difficulty scales pretty heftily. Also harrass (until possibly 1.4 we'll see how the Warp Prism works out) can be an issue for toss and the entire game can be decided on whether or not toss can stop the harrass
User was warned for too many mimes.
slicknav
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
October 02 2011 16:58 GMT
#186
I started out as a bronze level terran..I'm now masters but when I was coming up the ranks I had a hard time against zerg and protoss. It takes alot of practice to learn how to micro against banelings, how to split up units when fighting colossus, and how to doge psi storms. This was just my experience.
blah blah blah...
Absurd Bunny
Profile Joined June 2011
168 Posts
October 02 2011 17:02 GMT
#187
This will probably make me a total newb to sc2, since I'm in gold league, but how is it that Protoss is the hardest race to play in the pro leagues? I know that it is, I just don't know HOW it is.
Protoss is the easiest race to play in the other leauges (according to the chart) but then it becomes the hardest race.
Tons of tosses can win in the lower leagues, but I've never seen many tosses win any major tourneys.
eugalp
Profile Joined August 2011
United States203 Posts
October 02 2011 17:02 GMT
#188
On October 03 2011 01:40 clazzi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2011 01:29 eugalp wrote:
I don't have enough experience/knowledge to rank difficulty across all skill levels. However in terms of mechanics I don't think zerg is as hard to play as people make it seem. Really, the only thing you have to do is inject larva. If you do that, than almost all other sins can be forgiven. While it is never good to get supply blocked or to miss production cycles with any race, as long as you keep up with larva injects, as zerg you can easily catch-up in your production/macro.

(Yes you also have to spread creep but I see it as no different than protoss having to sim city their base and building forward pylons, or for terrans managing their add-ons. Zergs have so few buildings to build in general no doubt makes it easier for them.)

TL;DR - inject larva and you will be fine as far as mechanics are concerned. Obviously you still have to make the right unit composition, have game sense and timings but this is more or less the same for all races.

My 2 cents.


The most difficult part as is knowing when to build units, and what kind of units. Since zerg is the reactionary race you also need to know what's good against the unit composition your opponent is using. And you need to some basic cheese timings and how to spot if your opponent is cheesing you since you can't build units and workers at the same time.

Not to take anything away from terran or protoss, I know how hard it can be tabbing between your production facilities, avoiding supply blocks and building workers all the time.

Disagree. Knowing the right units to make is important with any race. But with zerg you can actually delay making units until you really need them (within reason of course). The only requirement is that you have enough lavra (see my original post).
"More GG more skill" - White-Ra
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
October 02 2011 17:04 GMT
#189
So in grandmasters hardest is protoss? :D What's the reasoning behind that?
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
ChoiBoi
Profile Joined January 2011
United States130 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 17:08:16
October 02 2011 17:07 GMT
#190
The only reason people say that Zerg is much harder is because unlike other races, we don't have a "forgive for not scouting" countermeasure. I'm going to say I'm Zerg, and it might be biased, but hear me out:

*Edit: This is meant as a lower-league argument, not a high level, since high levels would naturally scout.

If Terran goes 2port banshee with cloak, what can a Terran do?
They already have marines and scan capabilities, so unless they came RIGHT after a mule, Terran should be relatively fine.

What can Protoss do? Against Terran, they probably already have a robo and already have stalkers, so stalkers+observer.

What can Zerg do? Nothing, lol. The only real anti-air we have are queens, and they are quite fragile if you just micro your banshees. We'd have to make extra queens ahead of time, and then we'd have to create spores assuming that we even have an evo chamber. This is all assuming that no one scouted.

Another case, if a toss goes DT, what can Terran do? Scan and done

What can Protoss do? Assuming you didn't 4 gate all-in or something of that variant, you probably have a robo and can chrono out an obs. If you got lucky and saw the blur, you could forcefield the ramp to keep it out to bide for some time.

What can Zerg do? Hopefully we have an evo chamber, and spores take long enough that one dt can snipe most of them or just kill as many drones as possible until detection comes out. A dt rush will also come before lair hits in, so no overseer.

The other races are much more forgiving if you didn't scout. Zerg relies on processing scouting information as the blueprint of their gameplan. The other races can just tweak theirs a bit and they're fine (this might be a little exaggerated, but it's to prove a point).

Zerg was, in BW, capable of holding all those off without a sitch. Overlords were already detectors, and instead of roaches, they had hydras, which are anti-air. Protoss was generally the same, and Terran had a separate building that could scan, so no shared energy with something like muling.
Conquerer67
Profile Joined May 2011
United States605 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 17:09:21
October 02 2011 17:07 GMT
#191
Zerg is impossible to play at below gold, and somewhat at gold through diamond. There's just so much stuff you have to do, none of which you can que, that it just is overwhelming to play as. Which is why I cheesed into high silver, then macro'd into gold and higher.

I always wondered why zerg never tried building some workers and some other units at the same time? Why can it only be pure drones or pure attacking/defending units?


Because it's economically viable to make pure drones for as much time as possible, until you realize HOLY SHIT I NEED ZERGLINGS.

So in grandmasters hardest is protoss? :D What's the reasoning behind that?


They're basing it off the amount of times a protoss has won Code-S.
I hate when people compare SC2 and rochambeu. One race isn't fucking supposed to counter another one. | Protoss isn't OP. Their units on the other hand....
Goshdarnit
Profile Joined August 2011
United States540 Posts
October 02 2011 17:09 GMT
#192
I dont see why people are voting for grandmasters... even if one race is having a hard time, it doesn't mean we (the non-pros) have a right to judge whether it is "harder" or not.
docvoc
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States5491 Posts
October 02 2011 17:09 GMT
#193
On October 03 2011 01:54 Ryndika wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2011 01:54 Passionless wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:49 Ryndika wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:45 AnalThermometer wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:31 Passionless wrote:
Wow people actually think Zerg is difficult to play at bronze-diamond levels?
Most protoss / terrans dont even think to wall off in bronze so zerglings can end the game at any time in lower leagues. And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
I never knew team liquid was so zerg biased.


Gotta agree with this. I believe the root of it is Idra being so popular, low level Zerg players attempt to mimic his play before they can handle it. If you do aggressive play and cheese as Zerg it's not any more difficult than the other two. Proxy hatches or baneling busts will get you to diamond in 1 day, people don't check their bases or scout.

6pool also gets you to masters. Does this mean Zerg is easy?

And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
Im sure I lose 30% of my games because of hard micro as Z. Its lower actions but more complicated. T/P Simpler but more actions.

Oh do tell, explain this "hard micro" as Z!
I'm interested.

no need to be offensive but I explain:
It requires more thought process. TvP MU also requires a lot thought process imo. TvZ activating stim for example requires thought process. Splitting marines does not.

I'm not saying either race is harder or easier. I'm not even saying if Z, T, P is hardest to micro or macro.

Guys lets be honest here, zergs tend to really over-inflate how hard the race is to play. Yes, its difficult, but its difficult in a different way. Instead of understanding how to cast perfect force-feilds, or how to perfectly split marines, zergs have to inject well. Toss has to CB and Terrans have to scan or drop mules. Zergs tend to Q.Q (QQ face) because of scouting, its not difficult to inject even in a difficult battle (i have no experience in GM or M) but the difficulty lies in having the units out. That said, late game zerg is easy mode zerg is about surviving the mid game since early game and late game they are hard to crack. The units require fairly little micro (lets be honest how often do you see someone micro a ling or a bling in their army of 80 lings and 20 blings) and they are very, very fast. Zergs need to make the right units at the right time, and drone when not, its not that hard if you have some game sense, and are constantly either sacking an ovie or using one to scout what your opponent is doing. You have 100 min scouts that you can make a lot of, and they are hard to kill, can drop units, and spread creep, use them. Zergs QQ because they attempt to be like Idra, while not fully understanding what he does, why does it when he does it. Its like if i just took a game from MC and said yeah i'm doing this every game, it would be wrong and i'd be pissed off. I'm not trying to flame, all i'm saying is that zerg is a bit over-inflated for what zerg takes, especially since its them and terran, not protoss who tend to be most visible in pro tournaments, making it seem like on a high level toss is the hardest.
User was warned for too many mimes.
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
October 02 2011 17:10 GMT
#194
On October 03 2011 02:09 Goshdarnit wrote:
I dont see why people are voting for grandmasters... even if one race is having a hard time, it doesn't mean we (the non-pros) have a right to judge whether it is "harder" or not.

Agree. Only master-GM randoms should vote! :D I'd be glad to see poll where only randoms vote.
as useful as teasalt
cyprin
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1105 Posts
October 02 2011 17:12 GMT
#195
I disagree that zerg is the hardest race to play at lower levels, you can do really well with low economy/bad injects just because people can't micro.
Playing bio terran and not having like 100 apm to micro vs colossus/banelings means you'll lose a lot of games to attack moves.
kedinik
Profile Joined September 2010
United States352 Posts
October 02 2011 17:12 GMT
#196
Uhhhhhh, T harder than Z, at any level? I laughed.

I don't think "I need great micro to take full advantage of my much stronger units!" figures into the discussion as anything other than delusion or trolling.
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-02 17:24:51
October 02 2011 17:13 GMT
#197
On October 03 2011 02:09 docvoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2011 01:54 Ryndika wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:54 Passionless wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:49 Ryndika wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:45 AnalThermometer wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:31 Passionless wrote:
Wow people actually think Zerg is difficult to play at bronze-diamond levels?
Most protoss / terrans dont even think to wall off in bronze so zerglings can end the game at any time in lower leagues. And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
I never knew team liquid was so zerg biased.


Gotta agree with this. I believe the root of it is Idra being so popular, low level Zerg players attempt to mimic his play before they can handle it. If you do aggressive play and cheese as Zerg it's not any more difficult than the other two. Proxy hatches or baneling busts will get you to diamond in 1 day, people don't check their bases or scout.

6pool also gets you to masters. Does this mean Zerg is easy?

And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
Im sure I lose 30% of my games because of hard micro as Z. Its lower actions but more complicated. T/P Simpler but more actions.

Oh do tell, explain this "hard micro" as Z!
I'm interested.

no need to be offensive but I explain:
It requires more thought process. TvP MU also requires a lot thought process imo. TvZ activating stim for example requires thought process. Splitting marines does not.

I'm not saying either race is harder or easier. I'm not even saying if Z, T, P is hardest to micro or macro.

Guys lets be honest here, zergs tend to really over-inflate how hard the race is to play. Yes, its difficult, but its difficult in a different way. Instead of understanding how to cast perfect force-feilds, or how to perfectly split marines, zergs have to inject well. Toss has to CB and Terrans have to scan or drop mules. Zergs tend to Q.Q (QQ face) because of scouting, its not difficult to inject even in a difficult battle (i have no experience in GM or M) but the difficulty lies in having the units out. That said, late game zerg is easy mode zerg is about surviving the mid game since early game and late game they are hard to crack. The units require fairly little micro (lets be honest how often do you see someone micro a ling or a bling in their army of 80 lings and 20 blings) and they are very, very fast. Zergs need to make the right units at the right time, and drone when not, its not that hard if you have some game sense, and are constantly either sacking an ovie or using one to scout what your opponent is doing. You have 100 min scouts that you can make a lot of, and they are hard to kill, can drop units, and spread creep, use them. Zergs QQ because they attempt to be like Idra, while not fully understanding what he does, why does it when he does it. Its like if i just took a game from MC and said yeah i'm doing this every game, it would be wrong and i'd be pissed off. I'm not trying to flame, all i'm saying is that zerg is a bit over-inflated for what zerg takes, especially since its them and terran, not protoss who tend to be most visible in pro tournaments, making it seem like on a high level toss is the hardest.

Nice wall of text. Did you read what I said?
I also dislike your attitude where you assume people who play certain race are certain type of people.

What I was able to read from your text I got one thought. Why you make such effot to convince this one race is harder than another? When you play ladder at your own level no game should be easy when played standard or something other than stupid all-in or 6pool. ^^
as useful as teasalt
RandomAccount#106470
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
October 02 2011 17:21 GMT
#198
--- Nuked ---
Tef
Profile Joined April 2008
Sweden443 Posts
October 02 2011 17:21 GMT
#199
On October 03 2011 02:09 docvoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2011 01:54 Ryndika wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:54 Passionless wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:49 Ryndika wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:45 AnalThermometer wrote:
On October 03 2011 01:31 Passionless wrote:
Wow people actually think Zerg is difficult to play at bronze-diamond levels?
Most protoss / terrans dont even think to wall off in bronze so zerglings can end the game at any time in lower leagues. And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
I never knew team liquid was so zerg biased.


Gotta agree with this. I believe the root of it is Idra being so popular, low level Zerg players attempt to mimic his play before they can handle it. If you do aggressive play and cheese as Zerg it's not any more difficult than the other two. Proxy hatches or baneling busts will get you to diamond in 1 day, people don't check their bases or scout.

6pool also gets you to masters. Does this mean Zerg is easy?

And even then any engagement is good for a zerg because their units require 0 micro to be effective.
Im sure I lose 30% of my games because of hard micro as Z. Its lower actions but more complicated. T/P Simpler but more actions.

Oh do tell, explain this "hard micro" as Z!
I'm interested.

no need to be offensive but I explain:
It requires more thought process. TvP MU also requires a lot thought process imo. TvZ activating stim for example requires thought process. Splitting marines does not.

I'm not saying either race is harder or easier. I'm not even saying if Z, T, P is hardest to micro or macro.

Guys lets be honest here, zergs tend to really over-inflate how hard the race is to play. Yes, its difficult, but its difficult in a different way. Instead of understanding how to cast perfect force-feilds, or how to perfectly split marines, zergs have to inject well. Toss has to CB and Terrans have to scan or drop mules. Zergs tend to Q.Q (QQ face) because of scouting, its not difficult to inject even in a difficult battle (i have no experience in GM or M) but the difficulty lies in having the units out. That said, late game zerg is easy mode zerg is about surviving the mid game since early game and late game they are hard to crack. The units require fairly little micro (lets be honest how often do you see someone micro a ling or a bling in their army of 80 lings and 20 blings) and they are very, very fast. Zergs need to make the right units at the right time, and drone when not, its not that hard if you have some game sense, and are constantly either sacking an ovie or using one to scout what your opponent is doing. You have 100 min scouts that you can make a lot of, and they are hard to kill, can drop units, and spread creep, use them. Zergs QQ because they attempt to be like Idra, while not fully understanding what he does, why does it when he does it. Its like if i just took a game from MC and said yeah i'm doing this every game, it would be wrong and i'd be pissed off. I'm not trying to flame, all i'm saying is that zerg is a bit over-inflated for what zerg takes, especially since its them and terran, not protoss who tend to be most visible in pro tournaments, making it seem like on a high level toss is the hardest.


Zerglings require a ton of micro, but not the same kind of micro as marines (ie. stutter step) or as a caster (ie. sentry). Ever tried to a-move lings against marines or a death ball, they evaporate! You have to constantly micro/position them to flank the correct set of units or they are a waste, such as trapping marines for blings, trapping stalkers, avoiding FF, spread out against tanks, etc... sling is basically the unit that requires most micro after mutas or infestors for zerg. The only time they don't require micro is if the game is already won for zerg.
Dont fuck up, dont fuck yourself
Oreo7
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1647 Posts
October 02 2011 17:27 GMT
#200
On October 03 2011 02:07 ChoiBoi wrote:
The only reason people say that Zerg is much harder is because unlike other races, we don't have a "forgive for not scouting" countermeasure. I'm going to say I'm Zerg, and it might be biased, but hear me out:

*Edit: This is meant as a lower-league argument, not a high level, since high levels would naturally scout.

If Terran goes 2port banshee with cloak, what can a Terran do?
They already have marines and scan capabilities, so unless they came RIGHT after a mule, Terran should be relatively fine.

What can Protoss do? Against Terran, they probably already have a robo and already have stalkers, so stalkers+observer.

What can Zerg do? Nothing, lol. The only real anti-air we have are queens, and they are quite fragile if you just micro your banshees. We'd have to make extra queens ahead of time, and then we'd have to create spores assuming that we even have an evo chamber. This is all assuming that no one scouted.

Another case, if a toss goes DT, what can Terran do? Scan and done

What can Protoss do? Assuming you didn't 4 gate all-in or something of that variant, you probably have a robo and can chrono out an obs. If you got lucky and saw the blur, you could forcefield the ramp to keep it out to bide for some time.

What can Zerg do? Hopefully we have an evo chamber, and spores take long enough that one dt can snipe most of them or just kill as many drones as possible until detection comes out. A dt rush will also come before lair hits in, so no overseer.

The other races are much more forgiving if you didn't scout. Zerg relies on processing scouting information as the blueprint of their gameplan. The other races can just tweak theirs a bit and they're fine (this might be a little exaggerated, but it's to prove a point).

Zerg was, in BW, capable of holding all those off without a sitch. Overlords were already detectors, and instead of roaches, they had hydras, which are anti-air. Protoss was generally the same, and Terran had a separate building that could scan, so no shared energy with something like muling.


The bias here is overwhelming, you go if the terran goes 2port banshee how can the races react, and then you say protoss should have already perfectly reacted and zerg for someone reason has done nothing. Not to mention no one goes 2port banshee in anything but TvZ, and if they do you should realize what they're doing by some indicator.

Your standard here is stupid. It's like saying now, assuming the zerg played like shit and didn't try to do any scouting at all and did a build that isn't safe against this specific terran build, how screwed is he? Now, if a terran does a tvz build tvp against a protoss, how screwed is the protoss? He's not? OMG Z SO HARD
Stork HerO and Protoss everywhere - redfive on bnet
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