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EAPM comes to Sc2gears, need your opinion - Page 4

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
September 28 2011 18:52 GMT
#61
On September 29 2011 03:31 grs wrote:
Don't get me wrong, but I don't think EAPM does serve any purpose, whether you do a well thought formula - like you - or some not so well thought one - like Blizzard. The spamming still contributes to the quantity of the overall actions you can do. You can see the quality of the actions from who has won the game anyways.


Don't listen to this guy Dakota. It would be a valuable tool to objectively assess a players speed.
Fuchsteufelswild
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2028 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-28 22:20:31
September 28 2011 21:22 GMT
#62
I'm completely in favour of this, especially ensuring that the following are not counted in EAPM (Blizzard didn't exclude these from APM o_O)
"Too fast repetition of some commands (~0.42 sec): move, attack move, set rally, stop, hold, hotkey assign"

I've come across way too many players who spam these (particularly move) commands on almost the same spot and Blizzard's change keeps their spam APM but ignores things like trying to spend larva without the resources when you're just trying to ensure you use them as quickly as possible (just like Day[9] likes ^_^). I don't mind the latter not counting, of course, so long as worse things that are specifically inefficient instead of reasonable for macro are removed as well!
ZerO - FantaSy - Calm - Nal_rA - Jaedong - NaDa - EffOrt - Bisu - by.hero - StarDust - Welmu - Nerchio - Supernova - Solar - Squirtle - LosirA - Grubby - IntoTheRainbow - Golden... ~~~ Incredible Miracle and Woongjin Stars 화이팅!
Maniak_
Profile Joined October 2010
France305 Posts
September 28 2011 22:20 GMT
#63
Love the idea of EAPM in SC2Gears.

Same remarks as others about the repeated tapping through the various groups to check the state. It seems as though 0.336s would be a bit 'long' for this and would ignore most of it, even though it feels like it should be considered effective. I mean, constantly tapping 1-2-3-4 or 5-6-7-8 to check if the white dots are still there doesn't take much time, and you don't need to check after each keystroke. It just 'registers' when you glance at it, not necessarily on the first pass.
I don't see this as spam, but more as a kind of mechanical automatism, which is good to be able to do (not my case yet :/)

The fact that blizzard's "apm" ignores different group selections seems to me like one of the stupidest things they've ever done. Ignoring duplicate actions is one thing, but the 'tapping' is pretty legitimate and useful... Then again, blizzard's apm never meant much. Now it means absolutely nothing.

Two questions about EAPM in SC2Gears:

The simple one first, will it be added to the 'on top apm display', side-by-side on instead of the basic apm?

More complex, will there be an impact with some of the charts?
For example, if there are 10 available larvae, the player has 450 minerals and holds Q (or D) to build drones, 9 drones will be effectively created but the replay data will have stored a lot more drone creations. That's a recurrent problem with the current charts when holding a key to do... anything. The replay stores each key repetition, which get reported in the charts though nothing happens in the game.
This is especially visible when building units as zerg.

I've got a replay right under my eyes in which I built 53 drones according to the SC2 history page (still not enough, bad me :/) and 187 according to the replay/SC2Gears.

To compute EAPM you would apparently have to "simulate" the state of the game to track or approximate the number of available larvae and resources in order to only count the effective actions. So would this also be used to show more realistic builds/tech and builds/tech stat charts? Or are you aiming for a simpler implementation?


In any case, very nice addition to an already essential app
"They make psychiatrists get psychoanalyzed before they can get certified, but they don't make a surgeon get cut on. Does that seem right to you?" -- Jubal Early - Firefly
Fuchsteufelswild
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia2028 Posts
September 28 2011 22:35 GMT
#64
I would hope that EAPM would be in addition to APM, as this allows people to work out "spam percentage" (including just ineffective but useful tapping etc.) and see who might be using things like the tap a lot more etc.
ZerO - FantaSy - Calm - Nal_rA - Jaedong - NaDa - EffOrt - Bisu - by.hero - StarDust - Welmu - Nerchio - Supernova - Solar - Squirtle - LosirA - Grubby - IntoTheRainbow - Golden... ~~~ Incredible Miracle and Woongjin Stars 화이팅!
Dakota_Fanning *
Profile Joined January 2008
Hungary2357 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 04:16:25
September 29 2011 04:13 GMT
#65
On September 29 2011 07:20 Maniak_ wrote:
Love the idea of EAPM in SC2Gears.

Same remarks as others about the repeated tapping through the various groups to check the state. It seems as though 0.336s would be a bit 'long' for this and would ignore most of it, even though it feels like it should be considered effective. I mean, constantly tapping 1-2-3-4 or 5-6-7-8 to check if the white dots are still there doesn't take much time, and you don't need to check after each keystroke. It just 'registers' when you glance at it, not necessarily on the first pass.
I don't see this as spam, but more as a kind of mechanical automatism, which is good to be able to do (not my case yet :/)

The fact that blizzard's "apm" ignores different group selections seems to me like one of the stupidest things they've ever done. Ignoring duplicate actions is one thing, but the 'tapping' is pretty legitimate and useful... Then again, blizzard's apm never meant much. Now it means absolutely nothing.

Two questions about EAPM in SC2Gears:

The simple one first, will it be added to the 'on top apm display', side-by-side on instead of the basic apm?

More complex, will there be an impact with some of the charts?
For example, if there are 10 available larvae, the player has 450 minerals and holds Q (or D) to build drones, 9 drones will be effectively created but the replay data will have stored a lot more drone creations. That's a recurrent problem with the current charts when holding a key to do... anything. The replay stores each key repetition, which get reported in the charts though nothing happens in the game.
This is especially visible when building units as zerg.

I've got a replay right under my eyes in which I built 53 drones according to the SC2 history page (still not enough, bad me :/) and 187 according to the replay/SC2Gears.

To compute EAPM you would apparently have to "simulate" the state of the game to track or approximate the number of available larvae and resources in order to only count the effective actions. So would this also be used to show more realistic builds/tech and builds/tech stat charts? Or are you aiming for a simpler implementation?


In any case, very nice addition to an already essential app

Sc2gears has no access to your actions during a game, so it can't be added to the On-top APM info dialog. The APM you see in the on-top dialog is taken from SC2.

Not planned to alter other charts due to the EAPM calculations, just the APM chart.

Resources are not available in replays, so I can't make cuts based on not having enough resources.
https://repmastered.icza.net
Uncultured
Profile Joined September 2010
United States1340 Posts
September 29 2011 13:37 GMT
#66
I'm not seeing this in the analyzer stab. I see the real-time/game-time option, but nothing talking about effective apm.

Help, I R Newbie.
Don't you rage when you lose too? -FruitDealer
ott
Profile Joined April 2011
United States74 Posts
September 29 2011 13:39 GMT
#67
"Sc2gears has no access to your actions during a game, so it can't be added to the On-top APM info dialog. The APM you see in the on-top dialog is taken from SC2."

So will EAPM be an option for the APM alert?

"Not planned to alter other charts due to the EAPM calculations, just the APM chart."

Will you be able to see APM and EAPM on the same chart, like the micro n macro is now?
A truly creative person rids him or herself of self-imposed limitations. ROOT4ROOT! 'this is a strategy made of balls'- tasteless
Dakota_Fanning *
Profile Joined January 2008
Hungary2357 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 13:47:57
September 29 2011 13:46 GMT
#68
The new Sc2gears 8.1 has already been released with EAPM support. This is how it looks like:

[image loading]

This thread should be closed since the EAPM is out there.
Details of the EAPM algorithm: APM Types
https://repmastered.icza.net
perestain
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany308 Posts
September 29 2011 13:47 GMT
#69
The idea to automatically measure which actions are considered effective and which arent is completely flawed.

Its way preferrable imo to have normal apm since it is at least some actual valid data.

The fact that it does not represent what people woul like it to does not mean that its a good idea to just be lazy and leave the interpretation of it to some faulty algorithm. The numbers that come out will be even more meaningless..

No matter how hot it gets, sooner or later there's a cool breeze coming in.
Dakota_Fanning *
Profile Joined January 2008
Hungary2357 Posts
September 29 2011 13:49 GMT
#70
On September 29 2011 22:37 Uncultured wrote:
I'm not seeing this in the analyzer stab. I see the real-time/game-time option, but nothing talking about effective apm.

Help, I R Newbie.

There's nothing in the Analyzer related to EAPM. Update to the newest Sc2gears, and EAPM is in the APM chart of the Replay analyzer.
https://repmastered.icza.net
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25940 Posts
September 29 2011 14:33 GMT
#71
I like. I mean I prefer the old measure but at least these measures have some thought behind them, unlike the ridiculous Blizzard EAPM
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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