EAPM comes to Sc2gears, need your opinion - Page 2

youngminii

Australia7514 Posts

September 27 2011 13:39 GMT

#21

thank you for fixing up the mess blizzard started

i agree with everything but one thing confuses me

- Too fast switch away from a selected unit or reselecting the same units without giving them any commands (~0.336 sec) (by too fast I mean there is not even time to check the state of the units and optionally react to it accordingly); double tapping a hotkey to center a group of units is NOT considered ineffective
vs
- Selecting units or buildings to check their state but not giving new order to it.

What's the difference?

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 27 2011 13:44 GMT

#22

On September 27 2011 22:39 Stropheum wrote:

Show nested quote +

I believe it just comes up as a new selection, under that whole drop down menu thing.

Exactly. Sc2gears will show you APM and EAPM, and you will have to option to choose between game-time and real-time. To please everyone

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 27 2011 13:46 GMT

#23

On September 27 2011 22:39 youngminii wrote:
thank you for fixing up the mess blizzard started

i agree with everything but one thing confuses me

- Too fast switch away from a selected unit or reselecting the same units without giving them any commands (~0.336 sec) (by too fast I mean there is not even time to check the state of the units and optionally react to it accordingly); double tapping a hotkey to center a group of units is NOT considered ineffective
vs
- Selecting units or buildings to check their state but not giving new order to it.

What's the difference?

The difference is the time between changing selections (between the select actions).
If you "really fast" select buildings or units, it will be considered ineffective. If you "slowly" select buildings or units, it will be considered effective.

The "really fast" and the "slowly" will be decided by the time limit which is proposed to be 0.336 seconds.

alepov

Netherlands1132 Posts

September 27 2011 13:50 GMT

#24

awesome, gj

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 27 2011 13:58 GMT

#25

On September 27 2011 22:39 whatthefat wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 27 2011 22:01 Dakota_Fanning wrote:

On September 27 2011 21:51 whatthefat wrote:

On September 27 2011 21:39 Dakota_Fanning wrote:

On September 27 2011 21:33 whatthefat wrote:
Interesting, I like the idea, but I had a few comments:

- Too fast repetition of some commands (~0.42 sec): move, attack move, set rally, stop, hold, hotkey assign

Does this affect waypointing? Also, what about micro situations where it is necessary to make a move command in one direction and then rapidly change direction, particularly when using faster units (e.g., mutas, lings or hellions to outmanoeuvre or bait slower units).
EDIT: I may have misunderstood - by repetition, do you mean the same command in more or less the same location?

- Too fast switch away from a selected unit or reselecting the same units without giving them any commands (~0.336 sec) (by too fast I mean there is not even time to check the state of the units and optionally react to it accordingly); double tapping a hotkey to center a group of units is NOT considered ineffective

I'm still not particularly good at tapping regularly throughout a game, but I thought (and I could be wrong) that the idea was that by rapidly cycling through the list of all buildings/units you could peripherally follow the status of each. And thanks to persistence of vision, you can still view what each group shows even if you are moving between groups faster than you can process a single tap. For instance, if you were to extremely rapidly switch between two groups, you could effectively see both groups at once, superimposed (the same way that a fan looks like a solid disc once it spins fast enough).

"Too fast repetition of some commands" refers to repeating the same command. For example if you micro a group of stalkers like this:
Move, Attack move, Move, Attack move...
These actions will all be considered effective.

Right, but what if I have a group of lings outside a Protoss natural, and I click MOVE to mineral line, then very rapidly click MOVE back, so as to bait the Protoss defense. I'm clicking MOVE to 2 completely different locations - does that count as two actions or one? A similar situation can occur with mutas - I move them into a Terran base, then very rapidly move back - either to avoid a Thor I just spotted, or to try to bait a stim from marines. I would argue that these are both useful commands. Spamming to me is when MOVE is issued to the exact same LOCATION twice very rapidly in a row.

Similarly with waypointing, I may very quickly input a path consisting of several points, e.g., for waypointing a drop, or for setting up a patrol.

About the tapping: the time limit (I proposed 0.336 seconds) can be decreased to cover cases where you cycle through your units/groups fast .

I agree, I'm just not sure what is an appropriate lower limit. It seems like some pros cycle through extremely quickly. I'm not sure whether they are purely spamming, or whether they are doing what I suggested (i.e., using persistence of vision to view more than one group at once).

This comes down again to the time limit that will be used eventually in the implementation.

If you move to the expand and 1 ms later you move back, then obviously your lings didn't even moved forward, so it was useless. If you wait 1 sec before you move back, then yes, it was meaningful and the action was effective. For this limit I proposed 0.42 seconds (which can also be changed if justified).

Quickly adding waypoints which are not too close is effective.

Sure, there has to be some lower limit at which it becomes ineffective. But I think that limit is much shorter than 0.42 if location is not taken into account. If it is easy to implement, including location would make life a lot easier for you in determining whether an action is spam or not.

As for waypoints, they are set on the minimap for drops, meaning they can be very rapidly entered (much less than 0.4s per click) even though they cover a large distance.

The location is not not checked, here is the quote from the rules:

- I do not check the target point of move commands: if they are close in time, the first is ineffective (unneccessary); if they are not close in time, they are both effective even if they point to the same location (issuing another move will cause StarCraft II to recalculate path and therefore resulting in faster arriving in many cases).

And a quote from my previous post (also contained by your post):

Quickly adding waypoints which are not too close is effective.

These 2 quotes answer your questions/suggestions.

Hossinaut

United States453 Posts

September 27 2011 14:40 GMT

#26

as long as theres an option to disable it, I'm down.
I don't view any action as ineffective. I view extraneous actions as having a purpose, if its making sure that your SCV/Probe/Drone builds AS SOON AS you have the resources, or if its to get into a rhythm, or if its in a rhythm. idk, I'm just a nub so what do I know

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 28 2011 01:12 GMT

#27

Bumping in hope of more opinions.

DeltruS

Canada2214 Posts

September 28 2011 01:17 GMT

#28

Could you add a quick toggle in places that show apm? I spent forever looking for how to switch it to game time, and I imagine many people would give up.

Boblhead

United States2577 Posts

September 28 2011 01:45 GMT

#29

Would you still be able to see real apm and have Eapm as an option to toggle it off or on?

Kaxon

United States117 Posts

September 28 2011 01:48 GMT

#30

This plan sounds a million times better than Blizzard's new setup, since you're not excluding something that's actually really effective. But keep the raw APM number around too and everyone will be happy.

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 28 2011 02:23 GMT

#31

On September 28 2011 10:48 Kaxon wrote:
This plan sounds a million times better than Blizzard's new setup, since you're not excluding something that's actually really effective. But keep the raw APM number around too and everyone will be happy.

Answer:

On September 27 2011 22:44 Dakota_Fanning wrote:

Show nested quote +

Exactly. Sc2gears will show you APM and EAPM, and you will have to option to choose between game-time and real-time. To please everyone

Cyber_Cheese

Australia3615 Posts

September 28 2011 02:32 GMT

#32

the times you mention seem rather arbitrary
1.05 seconds as opposed to 1? 0.42 vs 0.4? 0.336 vs 0.333?
at any rate it sounds great though

Carbonthief

United States289 Posts

September 28 2011 02:32 GMT

#33

Since double tapping a group does not count ineffective, won't this measure the form of spam where you put the mouse at the edge of the screen and tap your nexus/hatch/command center hotkey, so that you start moving the screen and constantly recenter over and over?

Gamegene

United States8308 Posts

September 28 2011 02:36 GMT

#34

Big thank you for including both APM and EAPM.

I like to see how fast I can warm up before the game really gets set into motion. So much thought put into SC2Gears it's crazy!

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 28 2011 02:52 GMT

#35

On September 28 2011 11:32 Carbonthief wrote:
Since double tapping a group does not count ineffective, won't this measure the form of spam where you put the mouse at the edge of the screen and tap your nexus/hatch/command center hotkey, so that you start moving the screen and constantly recenter over and over?

Camera movements are disregarded. If you keep double tapping "fast", those will be taken as ineffective.

Dakota_Fanning

Hungary2368 Posts

September 28 2011 09:03 GMT

#36

On September 28 2011 11:32 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
the times you mention seem rather arbitrary
1.05 seconds as opposed to 1? 0.42 vs 0.4? 0.336 vs 0.333?
at any rate it sounds great though

Sc2gears works with frames as the time unit, and the frame values are exact numbers. The values I posted are measured in seconds which are the result of frame => seconds and game-time => real-time conversions.

NoobStyles

Australia257 Posts

September 28 2011 09:21 GMT

#37

You need to make sure we can switch between APM and EAPM in sc2gears. JK I read more than 2 lines of you OP.

Sound good to me. Its hard to get a feel for something until we get to test it a bit though. Sorry I know that isn't really an benefit to the project. You made sc2gears, I'm sure you can make a kick ass EAPM calculator.

Nadir

Australia114 Posts

September 28 2011 09:26 GMT

#38

One request. Is it possible to get some kind of statistic that can reflect how active your camera is? Percentage of time spent scrolling and total map mileage.

Cheers

SnetteL

Belgium473 Posts

September 28 2011 09:28 GMT

#39

[B]On September 27 2011 21:05 Dakota_Fanning wrote:
- Too fast cancel (~0.84 sec): if a command (like train, research, upgrade, hatch) gets cancelled right away

Noone is going to build/cancel on purpose for spam, building a wrong thing and correcting it is IMO meaningful apm.
It requires buttons to be pressed and doesn't give you an edge that will inflate your APM. Even pro's make mistakes and it is important to be fast to correct them.

Eventually, yes, you did do the same as the person who did it correctly but with more buttons pressed. You can't forget however that you also used more time and that if you didn't recongnize and correct your mistake you also would have about the same apm as in the other situations but you might have made a game-ending mistake (thrown down a wrong building or w/e).

That's why I feel cancelling something fast should be rewarded.

ROOTdrewbie

Canada1392 Posts

September 28 2011 09:36 GMT

#40

you should use the same things that bwrepinfo used to determine eapm :D although i don't know what it used and the site appears to be in russian so my advice is really bad sry T_T
i <3 sc2gears and use it every day though : )

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