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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:12 FusionMrWet wrote: Not sure its even possible to name the BEST foreigner. I mean, Huk is in code s, beats one of the best on the world pvt (nada) Nada is not even close to being "one of the best pvt in the world". and that series was extremely sloppy from both sides anyway | ||
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NoobSkills
United States1603 Posts
On September 28 2011 21:24 7mk wrote: how can you be better than someone who you would lose to 9/10 games, lawl. PvP for Mana isn't bad, and perhaps with the new patch he could stomp him. Issue is/was that MC with technical rushes could stomp him, but MC could never keep up in a macro game. Meanwhile as you saw MC is now in Code B cuz he has no clue how to play a late game. Mana on the otherhand would beat those who MC lost to. Directly having one player beat doesn't make you the better player. Let's say that Combatex practices one build and dominates thorzain with a 1 base push, but does nothing else ever on SC2. He better than thorzain? | ||
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5ukkub
Poland507 Posts
On September 28 2011 21:28 inamorato wrote: "Tournaments happening here everyday" They must not be very competitive tournaments if they're several tournaments running concurrently. The players you named before Nerchio Mana and Stephano have achieved 0. When I say 0 I mean 0 offline when it comes down to top tier players. Then when I mention players such as Nerchio, Mana, and Stephano, they have accomplished next to 0 offline. You speak about beating Idra. When did I say Idra is currently a top tier player? Follow up with, competing with players like Thorzain, Naniwa, Huk. What is compete? Being present in the same game as these players? Open TLPD? HMMM LETS SEE Winner: CYBORG Sc2-Inside Cup #3-3 (Sun. 29 May) Winner: CYBORG Sc2-Inside Cup #2-6 (Sun. 27 Mar). WOW SO IMPRESSIVE! How about when they come to IPL, or go to GSL, or MLG, or any other platform that conveys the likes of all top tier players on an equal footing then I will be convinced. I have always viewed Mana as a great player. Probably before you were even aware of him playing, because you know, he played BW. Through beta until now I still see him as a high level toss but you talk as if he or these other players have won a platinum mouse. When you say that players like Strelok or Kas or Dimaga have achieved 0... im speechless... Have you seen IPL2? Europeans bit the hell out of rest. White-ra 1st, Nerchio 2nd, MaNa 3rd... There are other LANs in the world besides MLG and GSL, and it happens, that they too have really cometitive roster. Get out of your closet and ebrace what SC2 really is. Not only from your narrowed perspective. It happens that i started playing Starcraft in 1998 and since then i've been following the scene closely. | ||
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qwertzi
111 Posts
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00Visor
4337 Posts
On September 29 2011 00:28 qwertzi wrote: whats the use of this poll if the foreign player with the highest winnings (aka white-ra) is not on the list .... I think he should be on the list. But winnings is not a good indicator at all. Accomplishments is not a good indicator, since they don't reflect the present skill level (Jinro). And winnings is even worse because some tourneys with big competition (MLG) have not a much bigger pricepool than some small local events. (Fenix won 10k$ at some Mexican event) | ||
Poopi
France13022 Posts
On September 29 2011 00:04 NoobSkills wrote: PvP for Mana isn't bad, and perhaps with the new patch he could stomp him. Issue is/was that MC with technical rushes could stomp him, but MC could never keep up in a macro game. Meanwhile as you saw MC is now in Code B cuz he has no clue how to play a late game. Mana on the otherhand would beat those who MC lost to. Directly having one player beat doesn't make you the better player. Let's say that Combatex practices one build and dominates thorzain with a 1 base push, but does nothing else ever on SC2. He better than thorzain? I'm pretty sure that MaNa himself will agree that saying that he is better or at the same level as MC is just plain wrong | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On September 29 2011 00:04 NoobSkills wrote: PvP for Mana isn't bad, and perhaps with the new patch he could stomp him. Issue is/was that MC with technical rushes could stomp him, but MC could never keep up in a macro game. Meanwhile as you saw MC is now in Code B cuz he has no clue how to play a late game. Mana on the otherhand would beat those who MC lost to. Directly having one player beat doesn't make you the better player. Let's say that Combatex practices one build and dominates thorzain with a 1 base push, but does nothing else ever on SC2. He better than thorzain? you're going too far, Mana didn't play that much vs koreans while MC does it all the time, additionally MC was knocked out by a zerg and Mana didn't play vs korean zergs... it's only mana's pvt that seems out of this world currently. none of the protosses in korean are doing particularry good in code s, for example genius got to the farthest last season and 90% of his wins were void ray all ins. Mana seems to have pvt figured out better than any korean protoss right now, but that's only based on a few series and his pvp and pvz is unproven vs koreans, MC is arguably still the better player overall. | ||
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FusionMrWet
United States121 Posts
On September 28 2011 19:17 Neelia wrote: Thorzain beat Idra 2-0 in Pool Play @MLG Columbus and lost to MC in the Championship Bracket. Dunno where you take "idra steamrolled him" from :| He only lost a TvZ to Ret in Pool Play but 1-2 is hardly getting steamrolled. Sorry i meant ret, wrong zerg, but the games in whihc he lost to ret were a steamroll, my bad, shoyld have gotten that correct, but my point is everyone beats everyone in the foriegn scene, there is no MVP or Nestea of the foreign scene, so is it really possible to name the BEST foriegner? | ||
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On September 29 2011 02:44 FusionMrWet wrote: Sorry i meant ret, wrong zerg, but the games in whihc he lost to ret were a steamroll, my bad, shoyld have gotten that correct, but my point is everyone beats everyone in the foriegn scene, there is no MVP or Nestea of the foreign scene, so is it really possible to name the BEST foriegner? true Ret beat him, Nerchio also beat him at shoutcraft invitational, but his tvz improved a lot meanwhile it's a really subjective matter, the goal is to separate fanboyism and valid reasons. for example, winrates in the last month/months are a valid indicator of skill, 1 year old trophies are bad indicators of skill. people use bad arguments out of fanboyism or simply because they're not able to comprehend | ||
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FusionMrWet
United States121 Posts
On September 29 2011 04:17 msjakofsky wrote: true Ret beat him, Nerchio also beat him at shoutcraft invitational, but his tvz improved a lot meanwhile it's a really subjective matter, the goal is to separate fanboyism and valid reasons. for example, winrates in the last month/months are a valid indicator of skill, 1 year old trophies are bad indicators of skill. people use bad arguments out of fanboyism or simply because they're not able to comprehend I agree with you 100%, i am a toss player, and a huge huk fan, but in all seriousness do i think huk is better then thorzain, nope. Thorzain consistently beats huk. As i said before, everyone of these players can beat the other, so i dnt think there is a MVP or Nestea in the foriegn scene. What do i mean by that? i mean there isnt a player where u can look at in a foriegn tournament and say " whoever wins out of these 2, wins the tournament" like u can with nestea and mvp and the gsl (everyone said this phrase for the past gsl code s that mvp won) | ||
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Spicy Pepper
United States632 Posts
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Eee
Sweden2712 Posts
On September 29 2011 00:48 MCDayC wrote: Mana has performed fantastically at LANs, 2nd at Assembly by 1 game to Dimaga (taking out Nada on the way) and 3rd at IEM, best of the foreigners and even 2-0 vs Puma in the group stages. 2nd at last years assembly, etc. He's proven offline. He also took 2nd at dreamhack winter. Mana is definitely among the best "western" players along side naniwa, thotzain, huk etc. | ||
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RevRich
United States218 Posts
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msjakofsky
1169 Posts
On September 29 2011 07:04 FusionMrWet wrote: I agree with you 100%, i am a toss player, and a huge huk fan, but in all seriousness do i think huk is better then thorzain, nope. Thorzain consistently beats huk. As i said before, everyone of these players can beat the other, so i dnt think there is a MVP or Nestea in the foriegn scene. What do i mean by that? i mean there isnt a player where u can look at in a foriegn tournament and say " whoever wins out of these 2, wins the tournament" like u can with nestea and mvp and the gsl (everyone said this phrase for the past gsl code s that mvp won) yeah you're probably right that there's no "foreigner mvp". in theory what makes those guys special is that they have 2 godly matchup and 1 solid. let's look at numbers: these statistics come from the past 3 months (only korean matches): MVP: vt: 9-6 60% vz: 6-4 60% vp: 6-1 85% Nestea: 8-9 47% vz:10-0 100% vp: 5-2 71% so, MVP's best matchup recently is tvp and the other 2 is "average" also nestea is below 50% in zvt we face the problem that those korean guys play very few games, and the matches are between like 30 players that probably know eachother well and played like 100 games vs eachother in training. there are odd tendencies in these small samples, like a big portion of losses/wins coming from one player, or getting brackets that favor their best matchups. so these numbers are not very representative, they're not a big enough sample to be good enough. gsl, gstl matches happen so loosely distributed in time. the example also shows that by numbers, MVP looks pretty mortal even though he looks really dominating recently. note that the competition level is higher, the foreigners' statistics are boosted by "noobies" (but then there are korean "noobies" as well) also note that one can have 100% winrate with series and 66% in single matches, depending on the series format. Thorzain for example has a 8-1 tvt record in series which is 88% but if we count each individual game it's 20-7, 77% so this little research shows that looking at the mvp vs top finals for example and making a very subjective judgement like "hey, MVP's awesome" can be an argument too for players, which leads to misleading tendencies in the poll because everyone who doesn't have the slightest ability to abstract from their adoration of a player will automatically vote on their favorite. anyways some foreigner statistics in the past 3 months in foreigner tournys: Nerchio: zvt: 89-44 -67% zvz: 61-19 -76% zvp: 72-38 -65% Stephano: zvt: 57-25 69% zvz: 37-16 69% zvp: 32-18 64% Mana: pvt: 63-31 67% pvz: 47-42 53% pvp: 36-29 55% Thorzain: tvt: 20-7 74% tvz: 28-21 57% tvp: 37-22 63% Nerchio's statistics are awesome for example and also based on 300 games, making the %s very valid. but the average quality of the players these guys vsed is also a variable and can be drastically different in one period of time than in an other. White-ra pvt: 59-22 72% pvz: 28-27 51% pvp: 11-16 40% | ||
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VoiceOfDecember
Australia206 Posts
Does anyone remember when we first started showing up in korean GSL? Dimaga beats Nestea, the greatest zerg in the world. Dimaga ended NesTeas perfect record in ZvZ which Nestea is a god at. That saying something about Dimaga if he can take down a 3 time GSL champ who is known never to lose ZvZ. Also beating IMMVP at the top of his game. And he is just all round good. Highlight video: | ||
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FryktSkyene
United States1327 Posts
On September 29 2011 11:40 VoiceOfDecember wrote: I honestly think Dimaga is the best Foreigner Zerg. Now I am being bias cuz I play Zerg. Maybe if I followed Thorzain I'd be saying him. But I don't, but I am familiar with Zerg. I'd say in my opinion that Dimaga is the best. Does anyone remember when we first started showing up in korean GSL? Dimaga beats Nestea, the greatest zerg in the world. Dimaga ended NesTeas perfect record in ZvZ which Nestea is a god at. That saying something about Dimaga if he can take down a 3 time GSL champ who is known never to lose ZvZ. Also beating IMMVP at the top of his game. And he is just all round good. Highlight video: http://youtu.be/OIOcvW7HF58 It's not bias because you said "best foreigner ZERG" which he could be. Unless you meant zerg has in overall best player. | ||
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Ryan307 :)
United States1289 Posts
 That being said I would say the top 5 would be HuK/SaSe/Stephano/Mana/Naniwa | ||
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ForlornHope
Vietnam111 Posts
On September 28 2011 18:16 BjC wrote: I cant belive people voting for SaSe as not being deserving to be on that list. He 2-0 Naniwa and 2-0 ThorZain in MLG europe. Thorzain voted best foreigner and his best matchup being TvP. He beat Nani, MC, Huk and Hero. Ok..... but then SaSe's Protoss skills own that dude.  Im not say he should be voted top foreigner, as he still needs some more high preasure big event wins, but people certainly shouldnt be voting for him to not be on the list. Thats crazy. the two game they played didnt show much 1st was an all in and 2nd was a mid game all in so... | ||
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ForlornHope
Vietnam111 Posts
On September 29 2011 00:49 msjakofsky wrote: you're going too far, Mana didn't play that much vs koreans while MC does it all the time, additionally MC was knocked out by a zerg and Mana didn't play vs korean zergs... it's only mana's pvt that seems out of this world currently. none of the protosses in korean are doing particularry good in code s, for example genius got to the farthest last season and 90% of his wins were void ray all ins. Mana seems to have pvt figured out better than any korean protoss right now, but that's only based on a few series and his pvp and pvz is unproven vs koreans, MC is arguably still the better player overall. Mana has a 4-0 record agiasnt Stephano in recent tournament so His PvZ is pretty out of this world | ||
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