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On September 28 2011 16:12 FusionMrWet wrote:
Not sure its even possible to name the BEST foreigner. I mean, Huk is in code s, beats one of the best on the world pvt (nada) then at DH Valencia gets steam rolled by a non-Korean in thorzain. Then thorzain holds his own in his worst matchup against perhaps the best zvt player in the world, but got steam rolled at mlg columbus by idra.
Thorzain beat Idra 2-0 in Pool Play @MLG Columbus and lost to MC in the Championship Bracket. Dunno where you take "idra steamrolled him" from :| He only lost a TvZ to Ret in Pool Play but 1-2 is hardly getting steamrolled.
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Unless everyone is playing in only one league against each other, the question cannot be answered. This is why the Korean scene is easier to measure: there is only GSL/GSTL in SC2, and OSL/MSL/Proleague in SC1.
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On September 28 2011 18:37 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:00 Toppp wrote:
Bratok Is SERIOUSLY underrated. Hes better than 3/4 of the players on the list and has a 67% win ratio in overall match ups. He definitively deserves more votes in the "should be on list" poll. Dont remember seeing him playing against korean. How a foreigner does against koreans is pretty much the standard you have to go off when judging how good someone is. Sase thorzain huk sen are easily top 4 in some order. Stephano is way too hard to judge since he only plays vs non koreans.
vs non korean ? So MMA, MKP, Revival, Puzzle and some other who are non korean must be the best foreigners 
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Starcraft 2, the only time it's political correct to categorize people by team, country and race :D
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France13022 Posts
On September 28 2011 20:12 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 18:37 zeru wrote:On September 28 2011 10:00 Toppp wrote:
Bratok Is SERIOUSLY underrated. Hes better than 3/4 of the players on the list and has a 67% win ratio in overall match ups. He definitively deserves more votes in the "should be on list" poll. Dont remember seeing him playing against korean. How a foreigner does against koreans is pretty much the standard you have to go off when judging how good someone is. Sase thorzain huk sen are easily top 4 in some order. Stephano is way too hard to judge since he only plays vs non koreans. vs non korean ? So MMA, MKP, Revival, Puzzle and some other who are non korean must be the best foreigners
Online results cross-servers doesn't mean a shit.
He did not too bad against koreans since he took a game of PuMa
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On September 28 2011 10:47 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 21:09 Dawg_Snow wrote:On September 27 2011 09:18 inamorato wrote:
oreign Bonjwa? What are you talking about? Nerchio? Stephano? Mana? I don't even want you to ever use the word Bonjwa again because you clearly don't understand the meaning. Regardless of you stating future or not.
MaNa showed some tournaments? What offline tournaments? HSC cup 2 where it was like 4 people and he got silver losing to Naniwa.
WHAT HAS STEPHANO done? It seems like so much of this community has this inpenetrable foreign ego complex that they're unable to accept reality. WHO CARES. As of right now, all of the players you mentioned have done absolutely next to nothing in offline tournaments. NOTHING.
You come to this forum and learn words like bonjwa, metagame, etc and you just toss them around like you're familiar, which your clearly not.
edit: there's so many post's that I could focus in on but it would be completely irrelevant, 99% of the forum knows more about this game than the next guy. so there's no room for discussions, just people bashing their face off the keyboard until you accept "their" reality.
yeah and you clearly have no clue about the EU level. Mana, Nerchio and Stephano have a beasty level, but you didn t see them play in your MLG or GSL so clearly you don't realize how good they are. But np go back wanking on idra stream. Lol both you and the other guy going nuts about me not accepting your views, because of MLG and GSL. I'm sorry I don't watch HGMSL Weekly #109 to see Nerchio stomp everyone. Or some offline event where there were 12 people and stephano roflstomped them all. The bottom line is, they haven't displayed the results for me to consider them top tier players in the world. Quit banging your head off the keyboard forcing me to accept your ideology. They'll allllllll have the their time to shine, if that is what they are to do.
I can't blame you for not following the EU scene, but disregarding it totally?
There are tournaments happening here in Europe every day on a regular basis. Players have to choose in wich to play, because they often happen in exacly the same tame.
The result is, we have so much regular data on who performs better than others and who is roflstomping all the time.
Stephano, MaNa and Nerchio roflstomps ppl on a regular basis.
It's not like they are playing vs bronze players all the time. Competition is so thick, you can cut it with a knife.
Players like Elfi, Strelok, Goody, Hasuobs, Dimaga, Kas etc. are also playing, but Stephano, MaNa and Nerchio almost always end up in 1st place.
And then they go to LANs like Dreamhack, Assembly, IEM to 3-0 the shit out of IdrA, then really compete with Thorzain, Huk, Naniwa and even give a hard thime to Koreans taking off series here and there.
oh, and this part: "they haven't displayed the results for me" tells it all...
Maybe someone should open TLPD for you? Or help with finding VODs or results?
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On September 28 2011 16:12 FusionMrWet wrote:
thorzain......got steam rolled at mlg columbus by idra.
Get your facts right dude. Idra went 4-1 in his group famously beating MC. His 1 loss was against thorzain 2-0. AFAIK IdrA has NEVER beaten thorzain in a series.
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IMHO:
1. Sen
2. Huk
3. Thorzain
4. Select
5. Naniwa
6. Dimaga
7. Idra
And too uninformed of other players to make a clear assessment. But I am really confident in the top 3.
Personal bias: White-ra ftw lol
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Maybe HuK is not the best foreigner but his consistency is incredible (5 season Code S, always place top 10 in MLG)
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On September 28 2011 17:03 JohnMatrix wrote:
So Mana is a better protoss than MC because he beats 3 times Puma ? (Iem and 2 times in the EG Master cup VI)
Mana is a smarter protoss then mc.
Better? Not sure.
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Before answer the question "who is the best foreigner" we should define what the "best foreigner" means.
For how long ? Best foreigner since sc2 is out ? for the last 3 month ? this week ?
What is "the best" ? The amount of money he won ? The number of Korean he beat ? his number of fan ? the number of keyboard who burn because of his too high apm ? his APM ?The Number of high ranking in event ? in main event ?
And what is a main event ? GSL ? GSTL ? MLG ? Dream Hack ? IEM ? Assembly ? WSCG ? IPL ? NASL ? TSL ?
yeah, have fun
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On September 28 2011 20:53 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 17:03 JohnMatrix wrote:
So Mana is a better protoss than MC because he beats 3 times Puma ? (Iem and 2 times in the EG Master cup VI) Mana is a smarter protoss then mc. Better? Not sure.
Better overall definitely, but he will lose to MC 9/10.
MC technical rush > Mana
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ANYWAY we shall see at IPL who is good or not. i have faith in european players.
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There's a big problem with people thinking LANS >>>> Online because "this is real man !"
When players CONSTANTLY win every online tournaments (i'm talking about events with fields similar if not superior as some LANs: msi cup, gss, scan invit recently for exemple) they play (Nerchio and Stephano in europe) THIS means a LOT !
When someone wins a big LAN everybody think "my gad this one is best eva ! so good!". The problem is he won just 1 tournament, in this case maybe luck was with him, he maybe won some players he rarely win online (cause sc2 is a verry luck based game every top can win every top...), but this day was a good day and he beat everybody ! Now that doesn't make him the number 1. I'll give you exemples :
-Naama won a DH then he disapeared, he never showed something else later...
-Morrow won some big tourneys, he's a good player but not "absolutly dominant", top 5 zerg behind Steph, Nerchio, Dimaga and Ret.
-Sjow won an IEM, he's just one of the many many good terrans in europe, he's gettin raped every times i see him play (i dont watch him that often but it's true)
Now there's the Stephano and Nerchio case.
The last one is THE most beasty online player ever, he got 95% chance to reach the finals and he almost never looses it ( i just remember ipl2, gosucup and few cups vs Stephano). You can't tell me he hasn't prove himself, that would be blindness ! He attended at only 2 offline tournaments and wasn't ridiculous: He destructed his group without droping a single map (Tarson, moonglade and Huk) before loosing to Puma wich is not a shame. At blizzard invitational he droped games to Protosses wich is his worst MU. He can't be always a god !
Stephano has similar achievements but get more hype today with the coL-Mill affair.
Actually, these 2 players are with no doubt the most talented and the most skilled (not the most LANs-achieved i mean :p) zergs outside of korea with SEN. And they are top5 best with Huk, Thorzain and maybe Mana, because i dont only look their achievements but there overall CONSTANT DOMINATION of the scene, AND there ingame PLAY. Because when you see Stephano playing, this a constant "wtf this guy is awsome" moment and he is more impressive than a Morrow or a Dimaga, he NEVER does mistakes and you only see the oponent getting roflstomped, no-matter who's the guy. This doesn't make stephano unbeatable but that makes him loose only to realy realy good oponents.
So there is my contribution to this "everybody got his idea and never changes his mind" thread ! 
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On September 28 2011 21:15 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 20:53 Technique wrote:On September 28 2011 17:03 JohnMatrix wrote:
So Mana is a better protoss than MC because he beats 3 times Puma ? (Iem and 2 times in the EG Master cup VI) Mana is a smarter protoss then mc. Better? Not sure. Better overall definitely, but he will lose to MC 9/10. MC technical rush > Mana
how can you be better than someone who you would lose to 9/10 games, lawl.
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On September 28 2011 20:36 5ukkub wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:47 inamorato wrote:On September 27 2011 21:09 Dawg_Snow wrote:On September 27 2011 09:18 inamorato wrote:
oreign Bonjwa? What are you talking about? Nerchio? Stephano? Mana? I don't even want you to ever use the word Bonjwa again because you clearly don't understand the meaning. Regardless of you stating future or not.
MaNa showed some tournaments? What offline tournaments? HSC cup 2 where it was like 4 people and he got silver losing to Naniwa.
WHAT HAS STEPHANO done? It seems like so much of this community has this inpenetrable foreign ego complex that they're unable to accept reality. WHO CARES. As of right now, all of the players you mentioned have done absolutely next to nothing in offline tournaments. NOTHING.
You come to this forum and learn words like bonjwa, metagame, etc and you just toss them around like you're familiar, which your clearly not.
edit: there's so many post's that I could focus in on but it would be completely irrelevant, 99% of the forum knows more about this game than the next guy. so there's no room for discussions, just people bashing their face off the keyboard until you accept "their" reality.
yeah and you clearly have no clue about the EU level. Mana, Nerchio and Stephano have a beasty level, but you didn t see them play in your MLG or GSL so clearly you don't realize how good they are. But np go back wanking on idra stream. Lol both you and the other guy going nuts about me not accepting your views, because of MLG and GSL. I'm sorry I don't watch HGMSL Weekly #109 to see Nerchio stomp everyone. Or some offline event where there were 12 people and stephano roflstomped them all. The bottom line is, they haven't displayed the results for me to consider them top tier players in the world. Quit banging your head off the keyboard forcing me to accept your ideology. They'll allllllll have the their time to shine, if that is what they are to do. I can't blame you for not following the EU scene, but disregarding it totally? There are tournaments happening here in Europe every day on a regular basis. Players have to choose in wich to play, because they often happen in exacly the same tame. The result is, we have so much regular data on who performs better than others and who is roflstomping all the time. Stephano, MaNa and Nerchio roflstomps ppl on a regular basis. It's not like they are playing vs bronze players all the time. Competition is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. Players like Elfi, Strelok, Goody, Hasuobs, Dimaga, Kas etc. are also playing, but Stephano, MaNa and Nerchio almost always end up in 1st place. And then they go to LANs like Dreamhack, Assembly, IEM to 3-0 the shit out of IdrA, then really compete with Thorzain, Huk, Naniwa and even give a hard thime to Koreans taking off series here and there. oh, and this part: " they haven't displayed the results for me" tells it all... Maybe someone should open TLPD for you? Or help with finding VODs or results?
"Tournaments happening here everyday"
They must not be very competitive tournaments if they're several tournaments running concurrently.
The players you named before Nerchio Mana and Stephano have achieved 0. When I say 0 I mean 0 offline when it comes down to top tier players.
Then when I mention players such as Nerchio, Mana, and Stephano, they have accomplished next to 0 offline. You speak about beating Idra. When did I say Idra is currently a top tier player? Follow up with, competing with players like Thorzain, Naniwa, Huk. What is compete? Being present in the same game as these players?
Open TLPD? HMMM LETS SEE Winner: CYBORG Sc2-Inside Cup #3-3 (Sun. 29 May)
Winner: CYBORG Sc2-Inside Cup #2-6 (Sun. 27 Mar). WOW SO IMPRESSIVE! How about when they come to IPL, or go to GSL, or MLG, or any other platform that conveys the likes of all top tier players on an equal footing then I will be convinced.
I have always viewed Mana as a great player. Probably before you were even aware of him playing, because you know, he played BW. Through beta until now I still see him as a high level toss but you talk as if he or these other players have won a platinum mouse.
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Nerchio and Mana have achieved nothing lawl
so who in your opinion is a top player inamorato?
you do realize huk got smashed by Nerchio at IEM cologne?
and you mention IPL, well guess who got 2nd there.
and speaking of IPL, guess who mana beat there to get 3rd place? thorzain
MLG and GSL, the other two tournies you mention... they didnt attend so its pretty stupid to judge off of them not performing well in those lol
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On September 28 2011 21:28 inamorato wrote:
"Tournaments happening here everyday"
They must not be very competitive tournaments if they're several tournaments running concurrently.
The players you named before Nerchio Mana and Stephano have achieved 0. When I say 0 I mean 0 offline when it comes down to top tier players.
not very competitive ? lol
last sunday:
(Z)DIMAGA
(T)TLO
(T)Strelok
(P)ToD
(Z)Stephano
(T)Kas
(P)Socke
(T)SjoW
Saturday :
FnaticMSI.ToD
FL|Naama
aTnDarKFoRcE
EmpireBeastyqt
NaViSlavik
mouzHasuObs
LiquidTLO
[M]Stephano
aTnSocke
EmpireKas
mouzbiGs
ESCGoOdy
GoSuViBE
MSI Millenium pro CUP :
Mill.(Z)Stephano
Empire.(T)Kas
Mill.(T)Tarson
Acer.(Z)Nerchio
Mouse.(P)HasuObs
Mill.(P)Adelscott
Mouse.(P)MaNa
Mouse.(T)ThorZaIN
TypeII.(Z)PhoeNix
imbaFXO.(T)Strelok
Acer.(P)elfi
Fnatic.(P)ToD
mTw.(Z)DIMAGA
TteSport.(P)White-Ra
But no indeed, not competitive at all !
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On September 28 2011 21:28 inamorato wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 20:36 5ukkub wrote:On September 28 2011 10:47 inamorato wrote:On September 27 2011 21:09 Dawg_Snow wrote:On September 27 2011 09:18 inamorato wrote:
oreign Bonjwa? What are you talking about? Nerchio? Stephano? Mana? I don't even want you to ever use the word Bonjwa again because you clearly don't understand the meaning. Regardless of you stating future or not.
MaNa showed some tournaments? What offline tournaments? HSC cup 2 where it was like 4 people and he got silver losing to Naniwa.
WHAT HAS STEPHANO done? It seems like so much of this community has this inpenetrable foreign ego complex that they're unable to accept reality. WHO CARES. As of right now, all of the players you mentioned have done absolutely next to nothing in offline tournaments. NOTHING.
You come to this forum and learn words like bonjwa, metagame, etc and you just toss them around like you're familiar, which your clearly not.
edit: there's so many post's that I could focus in on but it would be completely irrelevant, 99% of the forum knows more about this game than the next guy. so there's no room for discussions, just people bashing their face off the keyboard until you accept "their" reality.
yeah and you clearly have no clue about the EU level. Mana, Nerchio and Stephano have a beasty level, but you didn t see them play in your MLG or GSL so clearly you don't realize how good they are. But np go back wanking on idra stream. Lol both you and the other guy going nuts about me not accepting your views, because of MLG and GSL. I'm sorry I don't watch HGMSL Weekly #109 to see Nerchio stomp everyone. Or some offline event where there were 12 people and stephano roflstomped them all. The bottom line is, they haven't displayed the results for me to consider them top tier players in the world. Quit banging your head off the keyboard forcing me to accept your ideology. They'll allllllll have the their time to shine, if that is what they are to do. I can't blame you for not following the EU scene, but disregarding it totally? There are tournaments happening here in Europe every day on a regular basis. Players have to choose in wich to play, because they often happen in exacly the same tame. The result is, we have so much regular data on who performs better than others and who is roflstomping all the time. Stephano, MaNa and Nerchio roflstomps ppl on a regular basis. It's not like they are playing vs bronze players all the time. Competition is so thick, you can cut it with a knife. Players like Elfi, Strelok, Goody, Hasuobs, Dimaga, Kas etc. are also playing, but Stephano, MaNa and Nerchio almost always end up in 1st place. And then they go to LANs like Dreamhack, Assembly, IEM to 3-0 the shit out of IdrA, then really compete with Thorzain, Huk, Naniwa and even give a hard thime to Koreans taking off series here and there. oh, and this part: " they haven't displayed the results for me" tells it all... Maybe someone should open TLPD for you? Or help with finding VODs or results? "Tournaments happening here everyday" They must not be very competitive tournaments if they're several tournaments running concurrently. The players you named before Nerchio Mana and Stephano have achieved 0. When I say 0 I mean 0 offline when it comes down to top tier players. Then when I mention players such as Nerchio, Mana, and Stephano, they have accomplished next to 0 offline. You speak about beating Idra. When did I say Idra is currently a top tier player? Follow up with, competing with players like Thorzain, Naniwa, Huk. What is compete? Being present in the same game as these players? Open TLPD? HMMM LETS SEE Winner: CYBORG Sc2-Inside Cup #3-3 (Sun. 29 May) Winner: CYBORG Sc2-Inside Cup #2-6 (Sun. 27 Mar). WOW SO IMPRESSIVE! How about when they come to IPL, or go to GSL, or MLG, or any other platform that conveys the likes of all top tier players on an equal footing then I will be convinced.
Just because you don't follow the scene and don't know about it, it doesn't mean there are no tournaments they did compete in. There's other stuff, you know - ever heard of Dreamhack, IEM or Assembly? Those are LANs. Except for the level/number of Koreans at MLG, the skill level of the rest of the players is higher at the tournaments I just listed.
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EPT
