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On September 28 2011 07:26 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:23 Hnnngg wrote:On September 28 2011 07:20 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 07:13 Hnnngg wrote:On September 28 2011 07:06 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 07:05 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:
I don't get all the "olol online game means nothing" some people imply that players don't care/play worse at online/foreign events which is simply disrespectful and delusional. It's basically custom games, and who did Destiny beat online? Yeah, and who's saying Destiny is the best because he beat Koreans online? Online is nearly useless, unless someone adds Destiny to the list of best foreigners. so one best of 3 proves everything? it might be true that some players don't take those seriously though. but it certainly is not true for everyone. also if you wanna talk about that particular series you could also mention that tvz is boomers worst matchup and destiny's style probably caught him offguard. 99% if the people just use this "argument" to defend a player who they're fans of. Destiny beat Bomber, he is a consistent Code S Terran and his TvZ is fine, he beat DRG (who says DRG's ZvT is perfect? Uhm everyone) and CoCa and Raleigh. So when Destiny is on the list of best foreigners, I'll start to care about online results. Bomber's tvz improved a lot, and he could still be caught offguard by an unique style, also he's known to be messing around in games so chances that he did not take those games seriously. but saying that 2 games that one single player played tells everything about like gazillion other games by other players... is a little bit strange.
We don't know who takes what seriously. It's not safe to assume that players would take games "unseriously" unless they say so. And it's not a gazillion games, it's 1-3 series, and Destiny has beat Rain and Bomber in games.
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I don't care what anyone says. GSL will always be the true showcase of skill level. Unless stephano or mana moves to korea and shows something good, theyll always be that "foreigner of hope" but once they come to korea, they get crushed, then everyone realizes the reality. Example is Naniwa, best foreigner, comes to korea, his dreams get crushed and he feels hopeless.
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On September 28 2011 07:34 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:26 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 07:23 Hnnngg wrote:On September 28 2011 07:20 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 07:13 Hnnngg wrote:On September 28 2011 07:06 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 07:05 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:
I don't get all the "olol online game means nothing" some people imply that players don't care/play worse at online/foreign events which is simply disrespectful and delusional. It's basically custom games, and who did Destiny beat online? Yeah, and who's saying Destiny is the best because he beat Koreans online? Online is nearly useless, unless someone adds Destiny to the list of best foreigners. so one best of 3 proves everything? it might be true that some players don't take those seriously though. but it certainly is not true for everyone. also if you wanna talk about that particular series you could also mention that tvz is boomers worst matchup and destiny's style probably caught him offguard. 99% if the people just use this "argument" to defend a player who they're fans of. Destiny beat Bomber, he is a consistent Code S Terran and his TvZ is fine, he beat DRG (who says DRG's ZvT is perfect? Uhm everyone) and CoCa and Raleigh. So when Destiny is on the list of best foreigners, I'll start to care about online results. Bomber's tvz improved a lot, and he could still be caught offguard by an unique style, also he's known to be messing around in games so chances that he did not take those games seriously. but saying that 2 games that one single player played tells everything about like gazillion other games by other players... is a little bit strange. We don't know who takes what seriously. It's not safe to assume that players would take games "unseriously" unless they say so. And it's not a gazillion games, it's 1-3 series, and Destiny has beat Rain and Bomber in games.
by the gazillion other games i meant the other online/foreign tourny games vs koreans
because in your prevorius post you were implying that all the online results are meaningless because destiny beat bomber, which is obviously a little silly.
everyone knows bomber is a better player than destiny, but upsets happen, it's not wise to generalize based on one series.
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On September 28 2011 07:17 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I think people need to realize its not counterstrike we are playing. Big online tournaments with several thousands of dollars as price pool... do mean something. Ofcourse smaller online cups and tournaments don't mean AS much, but if you constantly beat top EU players in those tournaments it does mean something.
Once again, its probably not as much as winning a major tournament on LAN like MLG, but you can definately make a statement about how good of a player someone is.
It's really not even about live or online. It's about "prestige" i.e. the number of people watching. If a tree falls in the woods, and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If a pro gamer wins a tournament, and no one sees it, is he really good? Despite all this talk about online events not meaning anything, everyone is giving Thorzain so much credit, who rose to fame from TSL3, an online tournament. Lots of people did not know Thorzain before then. Lots of people knew him before as being a really good player, but still had posts in TSL3 that were essentially "Durr who's Thorzain? He's doing good!"
To me, live big money events do mean more in terms of legitimacy and prestige, especially for international events. Rules out lag or possible cheating. But I do agree with your last statement.
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On September 28 2011 08:53 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 07:17 mTw|NarutO wrote:
I think people need to realize its not counterstrike we are playing. Big online tournaments with several thousands of dollars as price pool... do mean something. Ofcourse smaller online cups and tournaments don't mean AS much, but if you constantly beat top EU players in those tournaments it does mean something.
Once again, its probably not as much as winning a major tournament on LAN like MLG, but you can definately make a statement about how good of a player someone is. It's really not even about live or online. It's about "prestige" i.e. the number of people watching. If a tree falls in the woods, and no one hears it, does it make a sound? If a pro gamer wins a tournament, and no one sees it, is he really good? Despite all this talk about online events not meaning anything, everyone is giving Thorzain so much credit, who rose to fame from TSL3, an online tournament. Lots of people did not know Thorzain before then. Lots of people knew him before as being a really good player, but still had posts in TSL3 that were essentially "Durr who's Thorzain? He's doing good!" To me, live big money events do mean more in terms of legitimacy and prestige, especially for international events. Rules out lag or possible cheating. But I do agree with your last statement.
I also agree with you. Talking about prestige, LAN tournaments are WAY WAY better to make a name for yourself since most LAN tournaments are aired all over the world and lots of them also have the interest of the whole pro-scene etc.
But then again as you would probably agree, prestige isn't equal to being good and vice versa. As you named the example of ThorZaIN who was without a doubt insanely sick even before he was famous due to TSL3 ;-D!
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Bratok Is SERIOUSLY underrated. Hes better than 3/4 of the players on the list and has a 67% win ratio in overall match ups. He definitively deserves more votes in the "should be on list" poll.
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On September 27 2011 21:09 Dawg_Snow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 09:18 inamorato wrote:
oreign Bonjwa? What are you talking about? Nerchio? Stephano? Mana? I don't even want you to ever use the word Bonjwa again because you clearly don't understand the meaning. Regardless of you stating future or not.
MaNa showed some tournaments? What offline tournaments? HSC cup 2 where it was like 4 people and he got silver losing to Naniwa.
WHAT HAS STEPHANO done? It seems like so much of this community has this inpenetrable foreign ego complex that they're unable to accept reality. WHO CARES. As of right now, all of the players you mentioned have done absolutely next to nothing in offline tournaments. NOTHING.
You come to this forum and learn words like bonjwa, metagame, etc and you just toss them around like you're familiar, which your clearly not.
edit: there's so many post's that I could focus in on but it would be completely irrelevant, 99% of the forum knows more about this game than the next guy. so there's no room for discussions, just people bashing their face off the keyboard until you accept "their" reality.
yeah and you clearly have no clue about the EU level. Mana, Nerchio and Stephano have a beasty level, but you didn t see them play in your MLG or GSL so clearly you don't realize how good they are. But np go back wanking on idra stream.
Lol both you and the other guy going nuts about me not accepting your views, because of MLG and GSL.
I'm sorry I don't watch HGMSL Weekly #109 to see Nerchio stomp everyone.
Or some offline event where there were 12 people and stephano roflstomped them all.
The bottom line is, they haven't displayed the results for me to consider them top tier players in the world.
Quit banging your head off the keyboard forcing me to accept your ideology. They'll allllllll have the their time to shine, if that is what they are to do.
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I think it's too hard to say who the best foreigner is because they are all so closely related in skill.
It's easy to compare Koreans because of the higher skill cap plus players like MvP and Nestea have distinguished themselves vs the best players in the WORLD.
The difference between MvP and let's say Top(a player better than every foreigner), is much bigger than the difference between Stephano and Ret, Huk and Mana, Thorzain and Select, etc.
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Sorry but Sase and Thorzain are the best sorry
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Not sure its even possible to name the BEST foreigner. I mean, Huk is in code s, beats one of the best on the world pvt (nada) then at DH Valencia gets steam rolled by a non-Korean in thorzain. Then thorzain holds his own in his worst matchup against perhaps the best zvt player in the world, but got steam rolled at mlg columbus by idra. Then the 3rd place person so far in this poll in sen, gets 3rd in the NASL, but loses to select season 2 group matches. But then again there are players like White-Ra and Destiny who are excellent players who have proven they can hang with koreans, and they have beaten half the people on this list, and arent even a option for this poll.
I mean, its so hard to say, yea, he's the best like we can say with mvp and nestea. These players on the list have all had thier fair share of wins over good players.
I dnt like when people say "they havnt posted any tournament results, so they dont impress me", but sometimes theres a reason for that. Alot of the times, brackets have to do with the winner. DH valencia for example, gave thorzain and drg their best/preffered match-up all the way through to the finals. If they could have hand picked thier oponents, the actual bracket prolly would have picked for themselves. If the bracket had been different, putting hero in his best/favored match up with drg, and idra vs thorzain, is it more likely drg and thorzain would have gone home early? definitely. So as far as tournament results, i think that has more to do with brackets.
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Sen, HuK, Sase.
Sen is definitely the best but theres way to many people that wont even take a scond glance at him.
Sorry but its true easily
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Personally, I don't give a flying fuck whether tournaments are offline or online. The only thing I can look at are the statistics available to me, who beat who and how many times. If there are a ton of games the public don't know about, or various outside factors such as lag, sickness and jetlag I simply don't take them into account. Wins or losses are all that matters.
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[QUOTE]On September 28 2011 10:47 inamorato wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 27 2011 21:09 Dawg_Snow wrote:
[QUOTE]On September 27 2011 09:18 inamorato wrote:
Or some offline event where there were 12 people and stephano roflstomped them all.
[/QUOTE][/quote]
Sorry, stephano hasn't been to an MLG open bracket yet...
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On September 28 2011 16:26 Nifel wrote:
Personally, I don't give a flying fuck whether tournaments are offline or online. The only thing I can look at are the statistics available to me, who beat who and how many times. If there are a ton of games the public don't know about, or various outside factors such as lag, sickness and jetlag I simply don't take them into account. Wins or losses are all that matters.
Not trying to bash you or anything, but are results all that matter even if the bracket affected the outcome? Like lets take an obv zvt beast in DRG( obv not a foriegner, but work with me), he gets a tournament in which he has zvt through the entire tournament (including the finals) and wins. That would mean more then lets say a thorzain getting all tvz(admitted worse match-up) and comming in 2nd at another tournament knowing the challenges he overcame? you cant focus purely on results (yes they matter), but once again, brackets have ALOT to do with results. If a korean, lets say his name is X, loses to nestea or mvp in the ro16 in the gsl, does that mean that player Y is better then player X because player Y made it to ro4? No, it just means players X got very unlucky and had to play a better opponent.
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On September 28 2011 16:39 FusionMrWet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:26 Nifel wrote:
Personally, I don't give a flying fuck whether tournaments are offline or online. The only thing I can look at are the statistics available to me, who beat who and how many times. If there are a ton of games the public don't know about, or various outside factors such as lag, sickness and jetlag I simply don't take them into account. Wins or losses are all that matters. Not trying to bash you or anything, but are results all that matter even if the bracket affected the outcome? Like lets take an obv zvt beast in DRG( obv not a foriegner, but work with me), he gets a tournament in which he has zvt through the entire tournament (including the finals) and wins. That would mean more then lets say a thorzain getting all tvz(admitted worse match-up) and comming in 2nd at another tournament knowing the challenges he overcame? you cant focus purely on results (yes they matter), but once again, brackets have ALOT to do with results. If a korean, lets say his name is X, loses to nestea or mvp in the ro16 in the gsl, does that mean that player Y is better then player X because player Y made it to ro4? No, it just means players X got very unlucky and had to play a better opponent.
Of course I see where you are coming from and you have a valid point there. I actually avoided using the word "result" for the reason that it could imply that I stare myself blind at the tournament results. Of course winning an entire tournament is a major accomplishment and should be taken into account, but as you say, brackets, seeds etc. are all a major factor.
What I meant are the results of the individual matches. The player who wins the most games is the best, in my opinion. If player A consistently beats player B he's the better player. Whether it's offline, online or on the other side of the world doesn't matter to me.
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So Mana is a better protoss than MC because he beats 3 times Puma ? (Iem and 2 times in the EG Master cup VI)
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On September 28 2011 17:03 JohnMatrix wrote:
So Mana is a better protoss than MC because he beats 3 times Puma ? (Iem and 2 times in the EG Master cup VI)
No, because MC has won more overall than Mana. Also MC is a Korean. Trollol.
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I cant belive people voting for SaSe as not being deserving to be on that list. He 2-0 Naniwa and 2-0 ThorZain in MLG europe. Thorzain voted best foreigner and his best matchup being TvP. He beat Nani, MC, Huk and Hero. Ok..... but then SaSe's Protoss skills own that dude. 
Im not say he should be voted top foreigner, as he still needs some more high preasure big event wins, but people certainly shouldnt be voting for him to not be on the list. Thats crazy.
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On September 28 2011 10:00 Toppp wrote:
Bratok Is SERIOUSLY underrated. Hes better than 3/4 of the players on the list and has a 67% win ratio in overall match ups. He definitively deserves more votes in the "should be on list" poll.
He is a great player but its very understandable, he just doesnt get to show his skill that much. Any major LAN event he could never attend to because of visa issues. People, especially Americans, just dont get to see much of him at all.
The imba.fxo manager said theyve taken care of the visa issues though so hopefully we will see much more of him at live events in the future.
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EPT
