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On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home!
( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position!
i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing!
that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude!
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Gotta be ThorZain. Dude has been way too consistent lately. Almost beat DRG at DH Valencia...that was sick!
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On September 28 2011 06:00 SgtPepper wrote:
Gotta be ThorZain. Dude has been way too consistent lately. Almost beat DRG at DH Valencia...that was sick!
That's nice, consistent 1 result.
Dropping out of Code A, that's good too yeah?
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On September 28 2011 05:52 cscarfo1 wrote:
I dont understand why SaSe only has 1% votes. He is the best foreigner, MKP even said so himself. Go watch his stream once in a while, T-Zain stands chance
So because MKP said that SaSe is best foreigner, then it must be true.
DRG said that ThorZain is best foreigner
What now?
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On September 28 2011 06:04 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:52 cscarfo1 wrote:
I dont understand why SaSe only has 1% votes. He is the best foreigner, MKP even said so himself. Go watch his stream once in a while, T-Zain stands chance So because MKP said that SaSe is best foreigner, then it must be true. DRG said that ThorZain is best foreigner What now?
logic dictates that there should be a mkp vs drg showmatch series, and the winner is right
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HuK, Sen, White-Ra, ThorZain, and Naniwa in that order.
But I think Major will top ThorZain once he has trained with TSL for a few months. I believe in Artosis.
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On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude!
You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans.
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On September 28 2011 06:07 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans.
none of the games i listed were ladder runs, and some of them were at lans
i listed like 5 of the very top american players who got their asses handled to them by nerchio
so what are you arguing against? i didn't say anything about fans or koreans.
also plz tell me which NA players took games off top koreans, cuz the only one i can remember is select/demuslim vs tester which are not very good examples.
and neither of those 2 is from america, they just play on the server
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One thing to think about is:
Why is the EU scene ahead of NA?
I would bet it has something to do with the tons of totally uninteresting onlinecups... In europe there is actually a tournament scene.... Being fucking good and staying on top of the game at all times actually creates some revenue even if you aren't on a top team...
Now 50-100 € my not be the world... But for students it's actually a nice way to bolster their (often kinda non existant) income.
Oh... And it was that NA did kinda not adapt to WC3 which led to a "braindrain" (they were strong, probably stronger - i don't know - in SC/BW, but SC/BW was near dead every where else than Korea for like ages, at least when it comes to tournament money).
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On September 28 2011 06:12 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:07 s4life wrote:On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans. none of the games i listed were ladder runs, and some of them were at lans i listed like 5 of the very top american players who got their asses handled to them by nerchio so what are you arguing against? i didn't say anything about fans or koreans. also plz tell me which NA players took games off top koreans, cuz the only one i can remember is select/demuslim vs tester which are not very good examples. and neither of them is from america
We're all foreigners, the difference between NA and EU is like the difference between dogshit and catshit. It's still shit.
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On September 28 2011 06:07 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans.
I dont think that no pro player needs to go to NA to prove himself. And Nerchio is attending to some EU lans from time to time, i.e :
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VI_-_Global_Challenge_Cologne
he 3:0d hes group then was beaten by PuMa, no shame in that. Other tourney (his first ever offline) i remember, was Blizz Inv EU when he beaten White-Ra i believe.
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On September 28 2011 06:18 Velr wrote:
One thing to think about is:
Why is the EU scene ahead of NA?
I would bet it has something to do with the tons of totally uninteresting onlinecups... In europe there is actually a tournament scene.... Being fucking good and staying on top of the game at all times actually creates some revenue even if you aren't on a top team...
Now 50-100 € my not be the world... But for students it's actually a nice why to bolster their (often kinda non existant) income.
a lot of those players are from ukraine/poland/russia where if you're from a poorer family making a few hundred euros every month make a huge difference- a lot of good players who attend lans play at those small cups too, so this new race of "cup heroes" have very valid experience and skill showing. Goody/Kas/Nerchio etc were these online event heroes but they showed that it actually means something. Like nobody from america knew who Kas is when he beat Nada in a humililating way, etc etc. People should learn that refusing to consider these guys is a big mistake. Goody actually has a frightening number of won games against very very top european players who beat the hell out americans at lans, and people are still joking about him? this phenomenon just puzzles me. refusing to see that someone's good just because he hasn't won an MLG seems... dumb.
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On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude!
Can you not disagree with someone without being a dick about it?
I never said that Nerchio wasn't good. I never said that Stephano wasn't good either. In fact, Americans seem remarkably willing to accept players from outside of America as the best, and to not really care that the best players aren't from the U.S. These days, a Korean always wins MLG, and Americans are always really excited to watch.
My point is that you can't expect people who follow mainstream SC2 to know who is dominating online, in European online tournaments. If you want to convince people that you are the best foreigner in the WORLD, you have to do it on the world stage.
Like I said earlier, if Stephano performs really well at IPL lan then more people will talk about him as the best foreigner. It's not like Stephano or Nerchio have won all of these lans in Europe. Dimaga won Assembly Summer. Mana was the top placing foreigner at IEM.
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On September 28 2011 06:20 Hnnngg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:12 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 06:07 s4life wrote:On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans. none of the games i listed were ladder runs, and some of them were at lans i listed like 5 of the very top american players who got their asses handled to them by nerchio so what are you arguing against? i didn't say anything about fans or koreans. also plz tell me which NA players took games off top koreans, cuz the only one i can remember is select/demuslim vs tester which are not very good examples. and neither of them is from america We're all foreigners, the difference between NA and EU is like the difference between dogshit and catshit. It's still shit.
not sure why you quoted me, but recently there definitely are a few players who are competitive at korean level (Thorzain, Stephano, Mana etc)
there are very few of them, and they're mostly european born. the average skill level is still worse than in korea of course- but this thread is about individual players not the collective scene. and accounting those 3 individual players, Eu >>> Na
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On September 28 2011 06:31 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:20 Hnnngg wrote:On September 28 2011 06:12 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 06:07 s4life wrote:On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans. none of the games i listed were ladder runs, and some of them were at lans i listed like 5 of the very top american players who got their asses handled to them by nerchio so what are you arguing against? i didn't say anything about fans or koreans. also plz tell me which NA players took games off top koreans, cuz the only one i can remember is select/demuslim vs tester which are not very good examples. and neither of them is from america We're all foreigners, the difference between NA and EU is like the difference between dogshit and catshit. It's still shit. not sure why you quoted me, but recently there definitely are a few players who are competitive at korean level (Thorzain, Stephano, Mana etc) there are very few of them, and they're mostly european born. the average skill level is still worse than in korea of course- but this thread is about individual players not the collective scene. and accounting those 3 individual players, Eu >>> Na
LOL i love how everyone is mentioning thorzain/stephano/mana when they haven't even played in GSL, the number 1 league in the world. Thorzain played in it and couldn't even get past the first round LOL
stop saying they are competitive at the korean level until they hit code a top 8 or higher.
Sure they are good, but nerves and playing in front of tons of people is way different. Nestea sucks in everything BUT the GSL.
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On September 28 2011 06:27 Vul wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! Can you not disagree with someone without being a dick about it? I never said that Nerchio wasn't good. I never said that Stephano wasn't good either. In fact, Americans seem remarkably willing to accept players from outside of America as the best, and to not really care that the best players aren't from the U.S. These days, a Korean always wins MLG, and Americans are always really excited to watch. My point is that you can't expect people who follow mainstream SC2 to know who is dominating online, in European online tournaments. If you want to convince people that you are the best foreigner in the WORLD, you have to do it on the world stage. Like I said earlier, if Stephano performs really well at IPL lan then more people will talk about him as the best foreigner. It's not like Stephano or Nerchio have won all of these lans in Europe. Dimaga won Assembly Summer. Mana was the top placing foreigner at IEM.
i get your point, i was being a dick about it cuz i really like nerchio and it kinda annoys me if people refuse to acknowledge him
true, he doesn't have much lan experience, but he consistently dominates like half of very top players that are shown on the poll, and he has some decent lan results as well
so the real question is, if not giving him recognition cuz lack of lan experience is valid, or seeing that he is a monster, probably the best foreigner zerg-even without lan experience is valid (i really think the true answer is the second one)
this thread isn't about who people talk about the most, because then Idra would certainly be top 1, yet he is not even worthy to be on this poll
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I really think a lot of people in here talk too much. Its good that have your opinion, but its also good to listen to other people and other people's opinion. You can have your points and they can be valid and reasonable but it does not mean that there can't be another opinion which in itself is also true.
Starcraft 2 is still very young and undeveloped to say the least. There are 'standard' builds now, but there are still lots of builds viable. In Broodwar there were not very many strategies viable, not even saying it probably was the best to go for a super plain macro game there as you couldn't really throw off your opponent, because everything was so standard.
People could read the game very well and certain things nearly gave 100% confirmation of a strategy. Now those things don't exist in Starcraft 2 yet, obviously if you scout a dark shrine in PvT it will be DTs with usually charge/archons as followup but there are a lot of things which are not as clear ...
Also the level of competition is so tight, that at the very top there might be players who overall are better but that doesn't mean they would win 70-80% of the games against a 'weaker' opponent.
I'm pretty sure all of the top players named here be it Stephano, MaNa, SaSe, Naniwa, ThorZaIN can all take off games of each other... so there's no player you could cleary say "He's better"
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SEn has always been a beast, so much so that polls akin to this often mistake him for a Korean. He had a considerably weak period against Protoss, when every Zerg had a weak period against Zerg and I don't think he fully solved it but he's still possibly the third best Zerg in the world.
I'm still not sure on Thorzain, he has done well but his play style still looks sloppy even if it is effective, kind of like Goody's but in a completely different fashion. I'd like to see more of him before I possibly rate him above SEn.
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On September 28 2011 06:24 mijagi182 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:07 s4life wrote:On September 28 2011 05:54 msjakofsky wrote:On September 28 2011 02:26 Vul wrote:
I don't understand why everyone says this to Americans. Maybe Europe has has better players overall than North America, but North America has MLG with Korean participation on a regular basis. Europe doesn't seem to have LANs as frequently. Plus there are Europeans who do come to MLG and who do play in the GSL, so I can watch them there. And why would I go out of my way to watch small European online tournaments when I could watch the GSL vods?
Basically there isn't much of a motivation to watch those games you're talking about. Players like Nerchio will get more recognition from people in NA when he plays in a venue accessible and appealing to us. Otherwise you're just going to have the hardcore NA fans watching. If he chooses not to do that, then that's fine, but you can't expect everyone to change their viewing habits or like a player they never see.
so Nerchio's humiliating record vs a lot of american players doesn't matter, because some of those games he played from home! ( 4-0 vs idra, 2-0 against huk, 2-0 against kiwikaki, 2-0 against fenix, 2-0 against dde, 9-1 vs demuslim, 2-0 vs rain) etcetcetc should not get recognition from americans like because some of those games he played from a different geographic position! i mean really he must prove that he is a good player after all those games! those mean nothing! that's logic at its finest! nice thinking process, dude! You have to do more than winning small tourneys and beating everyone on ladder runs.. otherwise Goody would probably have a good claim at being the best player in the world. Go to a big LAN, take games off top korean players in the main stage when stakes are high and nerves get the better of you.. that'll make you fans. I dont think that no pro player needs to go to NA to prove himself. And Nerchio is attending to some EU lans from time to time, i.e : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_VI_-_Global_Challenge_Colognehe 3:0d hes group then was beaten by PuMa, no shame in that. Other tourney (his first ever offline) i remember, was Blizz Inv EU when he beaten White-Ra i believe.
And he actually just yesterday in an interview said (after he won the millenium cup) that he is not planning to visite an MLG anytime soon because he does not like the open bracket", he wants to attend more european Lans.
Oh, and he is not planning to go "full pro" because he does not want to play more than he is atm.
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EPT
