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On September 26 2011 17:04 Ouga wrote:
I'd have said stephano/mana also. When I look at the options, I knew people would blindly vote for the "TL favorites" eventhough lately it hasn't seemed like they have done too good. I mean very lately, not looking back 3 months ago. But I guess thorzain is fine pick too seeing dh valencia perf.
The obvious vote is definately ThorZaIN, just look at GSTL, Code A and DH Valencia.
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On September 26 2011 17:00 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 16:21 Cel.erity wrote:On September 26 2011 15:21 icarly wrote:
After watching the Scan invitational and the FxO KOTH, I really don't see why the majority vote isn't for Stephano. He's simply the most dominant foreigner at the moment. I can understand arguments for Thorzain, but not for anyone else.
People say Stephano isn't accomplished, but these Eu weekly cups that everyone on State of the Game joke about consist of the best players in Europe-- meaning the best foreigners. I definitely put more weight in a top 4 finish in a European weekly cup than a top 4 finish in pre Korean MLG. MLG is a much harder tournament even without the Korean invitees, because sure, Go4SC2 has many good players, but not every round is challenging and most pro players are not participating. If you're a top player, you've basically got 5 rounds of free wins and then all you need to do is beat 2 good players and 1 other pro in Bo3s and a Bo5. Even if you don't think guys like InControL and Drewbie are as good as the european pros, it is still way more difficult to get through 8 rounds vs them than 1 round vs Thorzain. Depends on the exact cup/weekly. The monthly finals of these online cups are tough. The european qualifier for IEM NY was fucking ridiculous. AND some MLG's were really lacking (the one with Thorzain was tough, Raleigh was really nothing anything special lineup wise if there would not have been Koreans). Dreamhack, Assembly and Homestorycup were all harder (- Koreans).
I would personally say that when for example Huk and Idra won their MLG's the NA scene was better than EU as most of the current EU top players were either still playing or Warcraft 3 or had switched to Sc2 but didn't know that you have to expand in this game.
At that point it was really only the TL Europeans, Dimaga and White Ra who were anything to care about in the foreign scene where as the US had Select, Kiwikaki, Idra, Huk, Tyler.
Obviously Europe has considerably more depth now than NA does but it wasn't so in Beta and early release. Only really around MLG Dallas and TSL3 did it become really clear that EU was the second best region for Sc2.
As well I think Prize Pool and status matter as well. There might be a better roster for a Go4Sc2 monthly final than an MLG minus Koreans but I'm certain it's not harder to win.
Strictly speaking if we follow that logic then the ESV Korean Weekly is the third hardest tournament to win after Code S and Code A, as it's probably got the third strongest lineup.
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On September 26 2011 16:44 snapski wrote:
SaSe is raping Korean ladder, MarineKing said good words about him,
I put my faith into his hands, he could compete without problem in Code S.
If he could compete in Code S without problems why did he lost 2-0 in the first round of Code A twice?
The Sase hype is probably the weirdest and most unjustified of all the current fotm foreigners. Sase's obviously a solid Protoss for a foreigner but he has literally no impressive results in LAN's. He came second at that Chinese LAN which was basically MKP (who raped Sase in the final), Jinro and a load of random jobbers. He also won that Swedish tournament like six months ago to get a Code A spot.
That's pretty much it.
But you get some people claiming he's better than Naniwa, Huk, Hongun and all sorts of other players on the basis of living in Korean and showing almost no results at all. He was totally outclassed by some mid/low tier Korean Zergs in Code A twice and still hasn't won a televised game in Korea.
The Sase hype makes no sense at all.
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I feel that nowadays stephano deserves this spot, this guy is on fire
this week end :
Saturday : destroys FXO KOTH tournament beating : Beastyqt, Socke, kas, Gibs
Wins SCAN dignitas tournament beating : Kas ( 2 - 0 ), Socke ( 2-0 ) and Tod ( 3-1 )
i can t wait to see how he performs at IPL and MLG. Also : lol idra on the list.
i believe that it's pretty close between thorzain, mana and stephano
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On September 26 2011 17:50 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I feel that nowadays stephano deserves this spot, this guy is on fire
this week end :
Saturday : destroys FXO KOTH tournament beating : Beastyqt, Socke, kas, Gibs
Wins SCAN dignitas tournament beating : Kas ( 2 - 0 ), Socke ( 2-0 ) and Tod ( 3-1 )
i can t wait to see how he performs at IPL and MLG. Also : lol idra on the list.
i believe that it's pretty close between thorzain, mana and stephano
Stephano doesn't even belong in the top 10. Perhaps if the only Sc2 you ever watched was in the last week I could understand but a guy with no major LAN wins ever does not belong in any top player list.
The following players have achieved more in the last four months the Stephano. I use four months as I feel it's not too long to be considered dated but is long enough to make a proper judgement.
Thorzain: Dreamhack Valencia (2nd) TSL3
Huk: Dreamhack Summer, Homestory, Code S
Idra: IPL 1, MLG Columbus (4th, top non Korean)
White Ra: IPL 2
Ret: Blizzcon EU
Select: Blizzcon NA
Naniwa: Blizzcon EU (2nd), Homestory (2nd), TSL3 (2nd)
Dimaga: Assembly Summer
Sen: NASL (3rd, top non Korean)
Mana: IEM Cologne (3rd, top non Korean), Assembly Summer (2nd)
In tournaments that matter (and not small online cups or ladder), those ten players have all outperformed Stephano and that is a fact.
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Blasphemi can you stop trolling in every post where stephano is quoted please ? thank you !
all of those are great players anyway, i just feel stephano is on a great dynamic right now.
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On September 26 2011 18:06 Dawg_Snow wrote:
Blasphemi can you stop trolling in every post where stephano is quoted please ? thank you !
all of those are great players anyway, i just feel stephano is on a great dynamic right now.
I think you don't know what trolling is
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I think you don't know blasphemi.
But anyway stick to the post
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On September 26 2011 16:35 asdfOu wrote:
how can this not be an auto huk vote...
Because everyone have their little success criteria that so happens to apply only to their favorite player. The polls are kind of meaningless for that same reason, the discussions are valid though. If you feel like HuK is the best foreigner then you need to argue this case, and how his accomplishments weigh heavier than some of the others.
On September 26 2011 18:16 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I think you don't know blasphemi.
But anyway stick to the post
I think you got called out on your post and didn't have an actual meaningful reply, so you started namecalling.
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haha cant believe that idra is even voted above 90% of the player son that list.....
I chose Thorzain of that list as other then him and HuK they are a step above.
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On September 26 2011 18:16 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I think you don't know blasphemi.
But anyway stick to the post
I posted a logical argument for my picks backed up by reason and evidence.
It would be good for the thread if people picking Stephano did the same instead of just telling me how he beat MMA once at 7am after MMA had been up all night and with cross server lag in a tournament they had both already qualified for, or worse just tell me how "he's been playing great recently".
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On September 26 2011 17:42 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 16:44 snapski wrote:
SaSe is raping Korean ladder, MarineKing said good words about him,
I put my faith into his hands, he could compete without problem in Code S. If he could compete in Code S without problems why did he lost 2-0 in the first round of Code A twice? The Sase hype is probably the weirdest and most unjustified of all the current fotm foreigners. Sase's obviously a solid Protoss for a foreigner but he has literally no impressive results in LAN's. He came second at that Chinese LAN which was basically MKP (who raped Sase in the final), Jinro and a load of random jobbers. He also won that Swedish tournament like six months ago to get a Code A spot. That's pretty much it.
Just in the past two months he got second at CPL. Won the 2011 Grubby Starcraft Series Pro Invitational (which had a ton of excellent players). Won 2011 ESL XMG Series Season 2 Finals and has been able to be in the top10 of the Korean ladder, something no foreigner has ever managed (even now he is still ahead of for example Huk there).
While I do not consider SaSe to be the best player, I do not even consider him to be the best Protoss (Huk and Naniwa are very slightly better), he is indeed a great player and most definitely amongst the top 10 foreigners.
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On September 26 2011 19:04 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:42 Blasphemi wrote:On September 26 2011 16:44 snapski wrote:
SaSe is raping Korean ladder, MarineKing said good words about him,
I put my faith into his hands, he could compete without problem in Code S. If he could compete in Code S without problems why did he lost 2-0 in the first round of Code A twice? The Sase hype is probably the weirdest and most unjustified of all the current fotm foreigners. Sase's obviously a solid Protoss for a foreigner but he has literally no impressive results in LAN's. He came second at that Chinese LAN which was basically MKP (who raped Sase in the final), Jinro and a load of random jobbers. He also won that Swedish tournament like six months ago to get a Code A spot. That's pretty much it. Just in the past two months he got second at CPL. Won the 2011 Grubby Starcraft Series Pro Invitational (which had a ton of excellent players). Won 2011 ESL XMG Series Season 2 Finals and has been able to be in the top10 of the Korean ladder, something no foreigner has ever managed (even now he is still ahead of for example Huk there). While I do not consider SaSe to be the best player, I do not even consider him to be the best Protoss (Huk and Naniwa are very slightly better), he is indeed a great player and most definitely amongst the top 10 foreigners.
So basically we agree he's a solid foreign Protoss but not the next big thing and not the top foreign player?
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On September 26 2011 18:01 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:50 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I feel that nowadays stephano deserves this spot, this guy is on fire
this week end :
Saturday : destroys FXO KOTH tournament beating : Beastyqt, Socke, kas, Gibs
Wins SCAN dignitas tournament beating : Kas ( 2 - 0 ), Socke ( 2-0 ) and Tod ( 3-1 )
i can t wait to see how he performs at IPL and MLG. Also : lol idra on the list.
i believe that it's pretty close between thorzain, mana and stephano Stephano doesn't even belong in the top 10. Perhaps if the only Sc2 you ever watched was in the last week I could understand but a guy with no major LAN wins ever does not belong in any top player list. The following players have achieved more in the last four months the Stephano. I use four months as I feel it's not too long to be considered dated but is long enough to make a proper judgement. Thorzain: Dreamhack Valencia (2nd) TSL3 Huk: Dreamhack Summer, Homestory, Code S Idra: IPL 1, MLG Columbus (4th, top non Korean) White Ra: IPL 2 Ret: Blizzcon EU Select: Blizzcon NA Naniwa: Blizzcon EU (2nd), Homestory (2nd), TSL3 (2nd) Dimaga: Assembly Summer Sen: NASL (3rd, top non Korean) Mana: IEM Cologne (3rd, top non Korean), Assembly Summer (2nd) In tournaments that matter (and not small online cups or ladder), those ten players have all outperformed Stephano and that is a fact.
Your post doesn't make any sense. This thread is about the best foreigner (=the one with the highest level of skill right now), not the most achieved. Sure you need something to judge skill and that's results. But you can only look at very recent results, otherwise they're meaningless in this context.
If you're talking about achiements, then ladder and "small" online tournaments are not important, but to judge someone's skill, they're perfectly fine, if the competition is tough.
I gotta agree with Dawg_Snow, I've seen you post so much nonsense over the last few days that i can only hope you're in hardcore trolling mode.
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On September 26 2011 18:01 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 17:50 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I feel that nowadays stephano deserves this spot, this guy is on fire
this week end :
Saturday : destroys FXO KOTH tournament beating : Beastyqt, Socke, kas, Gibs
Wins SCAN dignitas tournament beating : Kas ( 2 - 0 ), Socke ( 2-0 ) and Tod ( 3-1 )
i can t wait to see how he performs at IPL and MLG. Also : lol idra on the list.
i believe that it's pretty close between thorzain, mana and stephano Stephano doesn't even belong in the top 10. Perhaps if the only Sc2 you ever watched was in the last week I could understand but a guy with no major LAN wins ever does not belong in any top player list. The following players have achieved more in the last four months the Stephano. I use four months as I feel it's not too long to be considered dated but is long enough to make a proper judgement. Thorzain: Dreamhack Valencia (2nd) TSL3 Huk: Dreamhack Summer, Homestory, Code S Idra: IPL 1, MLG Columbus (4th, top non Korean) White Ra: IPL 2 Ret: Blizzcon EU Select: Blizzcon NA Naniwa: Blizzcon EU (2nd), Homestory (2nd), TSL3 (2nd) Dimaga: Assembly Summer Sen: NASL (3rd, top non Korean) Mana: IEM Cologne (3rd, top non Korean), Assembly Summer (2nd) In tournaments that matter (and not small online cups or ladder), those ten players have all outperformed Stephano and that is a fact.
Going on former achievements would mean that MC is still the best player in the world, do you actually believe that?
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On September 26 2011 19:06 Blasphemi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 19:04 Paladia wrote:On September 26 2011 17:42 Blasphemi wrote:On September 26 2011 16:44 snapski wrote:
SaSe is raping Korean ladder, MarineKing said good words about him,
I put my faith into his hands, he could compete without problem in Code S. If he could compete in Code S without problems why did he lost 2-0 in the first round of Code A twice? The Sase hype is probably the weirdest and most unjustified of all the current fotm foreigners. Sase's obviously a solid Protoss for a foreigner but he has literally no impressive results in LAN's. He came second at that Chinese LAN which was basically MKP (who raped Sase in the final), Jinro and a load of random jobbers. He also won that Swedish tournament like six months ago to get a Code A spot. That's pretty much it. Just in the past two months he got second at CPL. Won the 2011 Grubby Starcraft Series Pro Invitational (which had a ton of excellent players). Won 2011 ESL XMG Series Season 2 Finals and has been able to be in the top10 of the Korean ladder, something no foreigner has ever managed (even now he is still ahead of for example Huk there). While I do not consider SaSe to be the best player, I do not even consider him to be the best Protoss (Huk and Naniwa are very slightly better), he is indeed a great player and most definitely amongst the top 10 foreigners. So basically we agree he's a solid foreign Protoss but not the next big thing and not the top foreign player?
He is a great player yes, but not the top one. That we agree upon. If he is the next big thing or not remains to be seen. Judging from his interviews, SaSe is possibly the most dedicated out of all foreign players, even more so than Naniwa. He wakes up, plays Starcraft, eats, plays Starcraft, goes to bed. That is his life currently, playing 12 hours per day on the Korean ladder, dedicating all his life to become the best SC2 player in the world. As such, he will most definitely improve, just how much and how quickly remains to be seen. I expect him to do very well in the future, once Protoss is sorted out (possibly after HotS). Especially if he can join some good Korean team to get some solid permanent practice partners.
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On September 26 2011 19:04 Paladia wrote:
While I do not consider SaSe to be the best player, I do not even consider him to be the best Protoss (Huk and Naniwa are very slightly better), he is indeed a great player and most definitely amongst the top 10 foreigners.
Actually, HuK had 2 accounts in the top 10 for a while, back in earlier this year, if I recall correctly.
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On September 26 2011 19:12 ineq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:01 Blasphemi wrote:On September 26 2011 17:50 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I feel that nowadays stephano deserves this spot, this guy is on fire
this week end :
Saturday : destroys FXO KOTH tournament beating : Beastyqt, Socke, kas, Gibs
Wins SCAN dignitas tournament beating : Kas ( 2 - 0 ), Socke ( 2-0 ) and Tod ( 3-1 )
i can t wait to see how he performs at IPL and MLG. Also : lol idra on the list.
i believe that it's pretty close between thorzain, mana and stephano Stephano doesn't even belong in the top 10. Perhaps if the only Sc2 you ever watched was in the last week I could understand but a guy with no major LAN wins ever does not belong in any top player list. The following players have achieved more in the last four months the Stephano. I use four months as I feel it's not too long to be considered dated but is long enough to make a proper judgement. Thorzain: Dreamhack Valencia (2nd) TSL3 Huk: Dreamhack Summer, Homestory, Code S Idra: IPL 1, MLG Columbus (4th, top non Korean) White Ra: IPL 2 Ret: Blizzcon EU Select: Blizzcon NA Naniwa: Blizzcon EU (2nd), Homestory (2nd), TSL3 (2nd) Dimaga: Assembly Summer Sen: NASL (3rd, top non Korean) Mana: IEM Cologne (3rd, top non Korean), Assembly Summer (2nd) In tournaments that matter (and not small online cups or ladder), those ten players have all outperformed Stephano and that is a fact. Going on former achievements would mean that MC is still the best player in the world, do you actually believe that?
No it wouldn't. Nestea has the best achievements of any player in the last four months with MVP in second.
And it's funny you bash MC cause he got second in NASL, second in IEM, third in MLG.
In foreign events MC is still destroying everyone except tip top Koreans.
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On September 26 2011 19:06 JayJay_90 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 18:01 Blasphemi wrote:On September 26 2011 17:50 Dawg_Snow wrote:
I feel that nowadays stephano deserves this spot, this guy is on fire
this week end :
Saturday : destroys FXO KOTH tournament beating : Beastyqt, Socke, kas, Gibs
Wins SCAN dignitas tournament beating : Kas ( 2 - 0 ), Socke ( 2-0 ) and Tod ( 3-1 )
i can t wait to see how he performs at IPL and MLG. Also : lol idra on the list.
i believe that it's pretty close between thorzain, mana and stephano Stephano doesn't even belong in the top 10. Perhaps if the only Sc2 you ever watched was in the last week I could understand but a guy with no major LAN wins ever does not belong in any top player list. The following players have achieved more in the last four months the Stephano. I use four months as I feel it's not too long to be considered dated but is long enough to make a proper judgement. Thorzain: Dreamhack Valencia (2nd) TSL3 Huk: Dreamhack Summer, Homestory, Code S Idra: IPL 1, MLG Columbus (4th, top non Korean) White Ra: IPL 2 Ret: Blizzcon EU Select: Blizzcon NA Naniwa: Blizzcon EU (2nd), Homestory (2nd), TSL3 (2nd) Dimaga: Assembly Summer Sen: NASL (3rd, top non Korean) Mana: IEM Cologne (3rd, top non Korean), Assembly Summer (2nd) In tournaments that matter (and not small online cups or ladder), those ten players have all outperformed Stephano and that is a fact. Your post doesn't make any sense. This thread is about the best foreigner (=the one with the highest level of skill right now), not the most achieved. Sure you need something to judge skill and that's results. But you can only look at very recent results, otherwise they're meaningless in this context. If you're talking about achiements, then ladder and "small" online tournaments are not important, but to judge someone's skill, they're perfectly fine, if the competition is tough. I gotta agree with Dawg_Snow, I've seen you post so much nonsense over the last few days that i can only hope you're in hardcore trolling mode.
So is Jangbi a better player than Flash?
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Just from what I've seen from his stream, I'd maybe say SaSe is the best at the moment.
Naniwa and Thorzain would probably follow that. But Protoss as a race is not doing too well, so I guess maybe Thorzain should get the number one spot if this is a question about results.
However, the topic title is actually *BEST* foreigner. So, SaSe, Naniwa, Thorzain and Huk.
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EPT
