On a message on their website, SC2Con had announced that they will be dissolving as of today.
The organization was formed November of last year as there was a need for an organization to help mediate the differing opinions of teams and organization as the scene was still developing.
SC2Con, unlike KeSPA, however, lacked the ability to enforce a specific opinion, leading to difficulties mediating on dividing issues. “Every team, player, and coach were under different circumstances, and therefore, differing opinions. This led SC2Con to believe that there were strict limitations on what the organization could achieve”, SC2Con commented. Some of the dividing issues were related to player transfers and attendance of foreign tournaments, and they noted that it was impossible to come up with solutions that pleased every party.
SC2Con noted that over the year the limitations of a soft approach like SC2Con were clearly shown. In their closing statement, they remarked that they still believe that an organization with structure was needed for the scene as a whole, and that they will be working to help create such a structure.
Interesting stuff, yeah I never believed SC2CON were managing SC2 very well and most of the time they were mentioned was when people had huge issues with them eg. FXOBoSs's situation
Yeah, between all the little bits of drama that popped up earlier this year I kinda got the impression that SC2Con was either lacking in power, disorganised, naive, or some combination of all three. I guess if it was only ever intended as a sort of formality for the early life of the SC2 scene that's not so bad. Judging by the post it's clear that those involved came away from all the problems that occurred correctly, so better things will happen in the future.
On September 24 2011 12:11 DeepBlu2 wrote: Finally... Would hate Kespa 2.0.. It's simply not needed at this stage.
If you read the post it sounds more like they want to move toward that than to no org at all
SC2Con noted that over the year the limitations of a soft approach like SC2Con were clearly shown. In their closing statement, they remarked that they still believe that an organization with structure was needed for the scene as a whole, and that they will be working to help create such a structure.
Ummm, isn´t this bad? I mean crappy ragtag regulation still protects players more than 0 regulation. Dunno about KESPA, they did a lot of good things for BW nobody can deny that but I really never liked some of their decisions.
Meh, best wishes for the korean SC2 players and teams, hopefully something can work out for them
I was half expecting this: 1) Notable teams weren't in it (Slayers, FXO). 2) There was too much controversy surrounding it. 3) It had no power, and the rules it seemed to try to make where never strictly followed. For ex, I think they discourage streaming, but StarTale let's their players do so.
On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about Kespa. They have done some absolutely ridiculous shit. The battle between Kespa and Blizzard was just greedy and spiteful beyond belief (both sides lost).
But Kespa governing SC2 would bring an air of "legitimacy". It would also pave the way for BW players to freely transfer to SC2 without losing their "progaming status" (whatever that means).
SC2Con noted that over the year the limitations of a soft approach like SC2Con were clearly shown. In their closing statement, they remarked that they still believe that an organization with structure was needed for the scene as a whole, and that they will be working to help create such a structure.
No. there is a difference between an unorganized group trying to mimic their predecessor in BW, and an actual organized group handling situations properly. SC2CON did nothing but cause problems... I don't think it has to be Kespa to handle it, as I wouldn't like there to be people become nearly slaves playing 16 hours a day, but I would prefer a much more organized group than SC2Con.
Kinda expected, it was useless to begin with. It was basically like a student council at a public school with no authority or power whatsoever. It would be nice if Blizzard or GOM can set one up with a couple of sponsor representatives from each team. This way they have finance to enforce things and be taken seriously by the community
On September 24 2011 12:15 lbmaian wrote: I was half expecting this: 1) Notable teams weren't in it (Slayers, FXO). 2) There was too much controversy surrounding it. 3) It had no power, and the rules it seemed to try to make where never strictly followed. For ex, I think they discourage streaming, but StarTale let's their players do so.
On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about Kespa. They have done some absolutely ridiculous shit. The battle between Kespa and Blizzard was just greedy and spiteful beyond belief (both sides lost).
But Kespa governing SC2 would bring an air of "legitimacy". It would also pave the way for BW players to freely transfer to SC2 without losing their "progaming status" (whatever that means).
There is still a big drop in pay going from BW to SC2 that still stands as a barrier between the two.
Also, what has Kespa done that is so ridiculous other than the Blizzard battle (and that too depends on which perspective you chose).
On September 24 2011 12:15 lbmaian wrote: I was half expecting this: 1) Notable teams weren't in it (Slayers, FXO). 2) There was too much controversy surrounding it. 3) It had no power, and the rules it seemed to try to make where never strictly followed. For ex, I think they discourage streaming, but StarTale let's their players do so.
On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about Kespa. They have done some absolutely ridiculous shit. The battle between Kespa and Blizzard was just greedy and spiteful beyond belief (both sides lost).
But Kespa governing SC2 would bring an air of "legitimacy". It would also pave the way for BW players to freely transfer to SC2 without losing their "progaming status" (whatever that means).
There is still a big drop in pay going from BW to SC2 that still stands as a barrier between the two.
Also, what has Kespa done that is so ridiculous other than the Blizzard battle (and that too depends on which perspective you chose).
I think a local Korean organisation wouldn't make that much sense at this point. What they need is a global organisation that is actually recognizable by the top leagues. E-sports is no longer something strictly limited to Korea now, it has grown vastly, specially the Starcraft 2 scene.
Look at how FIFA works in football, they are a global organisation and they have pretty much control all over the football scene. They organize the transfers, they look into disputes and their penalties are enforced simply because the top tournaments follow their decisions.
If for example the big tournaments had requirement for teams to be a member of this global organisation, everyone will eventually comply to be able to participate. However, giving a lot of power to this organisation might bite the scene in it's ass.
i know that kespa is not a huge idea by many people in the here since they make some dumb rules from time to time but the fact is that esports would not be here today without kespa. Sure the ppp rules were stupid and all but the fact is that they kept everything organizes and running to its maximum potential which sc2 would benefit from. I personally would like to see a improve kespa for sc2.
On September 24 2011 12:29 GoodRamen wrote: i know that kespa is not a huge idea by many people in the here since they make some dumb rules from time to time but the fact is that esports would not be here today without kespa. Sure the ppp rules were stupid and all but the fact is that they kept everything organizes and running to its maximum potential which sc2 would benefit from. I personally would like to see a improve kespa for sc2.
Lets look at SC2Cons TrackRecord
:Bar many koreans from competing in a huge international tournament. (NASL)
On September 24 2011 12:34 Probe1 wrote: Deyster is right. We don't need a Korean focused administration. We need a world wide organization.
It would be interesting to have a governing body...but to be totally honest the only governing body possible would have to go through blizzard as SC2 is there IP, and they can pull the plug on anyone they don't want doing X since there is intentionally no lan mode in SC2 for that reason...TLDR it's impossible for there to be a blizzard vs. kespa with SC2 because there is no lan for sc2 and hacking the game to play lan would be a clear violaition of blizzards ip.
On September 24 2011 12:29 GoodRamen wrote: i know that kespa is not a huge idea by many people in the here since they make some dumb rules from time to time but the fact is that esports would not be here today without kespa. Sure the ppp rules were stupid and all but the fact is that they kept everything organizes and running to its maximum potential which sc2 would benefit from. I personally would like to see a improve kespa for sc2.
Lets look at SC2Cons TrackRecord
:Bar many koreans from competing in a huge international tournament. (NASL)
thats it =/ we dont need a kespa
I wish you would learn to read. NASL and SC2Con have come out and said that it wasn't SC2Con that barred them from competing it was individual teams.
Not a big deal. SC2CON never did anything noteworthy (that I know of) besides start shit and cause drama (TSL situation, FXO Korea situation). I hope to see either a new organization with a real purpose/structure pop-up or perhaps have KeSPA come in (as much as many of us would hate that) because it would boost SC2's popularity and make it available to corporate sponsorships. Or maybe even have GOM organize something as Mr. Chae seems pretty level-headed and looking out for player interests.
On September 24 2011 12:28 StutteR wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again. They need separate organizations for teams/managers and for players.
YES. The conflict of interest in having a Team Owner represent players is staggering.
Which player will 'ascend' to form a real player's association?
On September 24 2011 12:40 bokchoi wrote: Not a big deal. SC2CON never did anything noteworthy (that I know of) besides start shit and cause drama (TSL situation, FXO Korea situation). I hope to see either a new organization with a real purpose/structure pop-up or perhaps have KeSPA come in (as much as many of us would hate that) because it would boost SC2's popularity and make it available to corporate sponsorships. Or maybe even have GOM organize something as Mr. Chae seems pretty level-headed and looking out for player interests.
I could live with Mr. Chae being the Invisible Hand behind all that is SC2.
Junwi represented the players...he was actually voted in by the players themselves. Hopefully whatever takes up the role now has the same consideration. >_>
I wouldn't mind KeSPA stepping in if Mr Chae was given a spot in their SC2 division though. Not only has he done all he could to grow SC2 worldwide but he actually cares about the foreign fans & has amazing connections because of it.
On September 24 2011 12:14 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, isn´t this bad? I mean crappy ragtag regulation still protects players more than 0 regulation. Dunno about KESPA, they did a lot of good things for BW nobody can deny that but I really never liked some of their decisions.
Meh, best wishes for the korean SC2 players and teams, hopefully something can work out for them
Maybe a player like OGS MC would be playing in the NASL right now (he won second place last season and can easily afford the travel expenses himself) if a SC2CON hadn't forced the teams to negotiate collectively.
This is a pretty big shocker to me, actually. With Mr. Chae involved with the NASL negotiations and the cryptic statements from FXOBoss about the organization, and with well-sponsored Slayers NOT joining SC2Con, I'd gotten the impression that behind the scenes it functioned as a revenue-sharing vehicle to keep enough teams alive for Gom's purposes.
So if I was right, this means that enough teams are getting revenue (I've noticed StarTale with more sponsors, maybe zzang is taking off) that they're willing to throw teams like Zenex under the bus.
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong (note I have no actual evidence) and it was just a waste of time now.
Not surprising, it seemed kind of in a mess after a few things.
I don't think we'll see any major structure for a while. Way too much is in flux. We're up to 4 major non-Korean teams with presence inside Korea now and you're getting foreigners on Korean teams. Trying to lock down a structure, at this point, is only going to cause more harm than good, for the foreseeable future.
On September 24 2011 13:11 Alkior wrote: What is Kespa and what did they do to make everyone hate them. Isint an organization good? They handle all the business crap and what not?
Also why does everyone hate sc2con too?
the reason ppl hate kespa was because they had to enforce some of the rules they place which was stupid such as the ppp and the free agent crap, but some fail to see the fact that kespa is central to the structure and running of pro BW without kespa BW today and even SC2 would not be part of the korean culture. I myself dislike many of their decisions in the past but the fact is that they have a set rule and stuck to it shows how kespa is very organize and professional. And in the past year kespa didnt really mess up at all iirc.
edit: kespa is the ruling body of e-sports in korean mainly BW
i wonder if it would be best if blizzard created an organization within the company to manage this kind of thing. they could also provide support for other games as well if other blizzard games become as competitive ... surely they see the need for this to help their product grow
Is the problem that the Korean SC2 scene doesn't have the hype or money to compete with the foreign scene and they are worried that their hard work in developing players using the techniques developed over the BW years is simply going to end up being bought by a foreign team before they can reap the sponsorship rewards of their player investment?
Or is it that previous exclusivity of high caliber players to Korean centric tournaments created a good platform to sell tickets and have higher online viewership numbers. With their players going abroad, foreign leagues will reap the rewards of having the highest caliber players participating and the possible cost of overlapping with a Korean tournament, thus losing viewers and sponsorship money to their own top tier players playing for the competition.
Or is it perhaps that some organizations have the money to invest in foreign leagues and teams, and visa versa, and they are nervous that this will stagnate the Korean development if focus is no longer inside Korea?
Whatever the case, it sounds like this wasn't a happy break up, and is likely to yield some kind of stricter representative force either in Korea, or possibly Globally.
On September 24 2011 13:11 Alkior wrote: What is Kespa and what did they do to make everyone hate them. Isint an organization good? They handle all the business crap and what not?
Also why does everyone hate sc2con too?
KESPA is just like a dictator. They treat players like slaves and control each aspect of each team. That's why a lot of players doesn't want to do anything with them. Like Idra (teamless), doesn't want to be in a team that is related to KESPA. Also some of their rules are just stupid, not logical and utterly non sense.
Sc2con is kinda KESPA wannabee but with no real power. They are so rash on deciding things and backfire in the end (see TSL and FXO drama).
On September 24 2011 13:22 price wrote: i wonder if it would be best if blizzard created an organization within the company to manage this kind of thing. they could also provide support for other games as well if other blizzard games become as competitive ... surely they see the need for this to help their product grow
I definitely think this would be best. Blizzard should start a regulating body for the entire world of SC2 and include some kind of pro-team representation in the decision making process. They could establish official rules and protocol for player contracts and transfers that would help to eliminate PuMa/Stephano type situations.
Blizzard already has some basic regulations for all SC2 tournaments, don't they?
While i would like to see some kind of governing body that has actual power, i don't want anything like Kespa. I want players to still be able to express themselves, do ceremonies, and even be able to type in game....
On September 24 2011 13:11 Alkior wrote: What is Kespa and what did they do to make everyone hate them. Isint an organization good? They handle all the business crap and what not?
Also why does everyone hate sc2con too?
KESPA is just like a dictator. They treat players like slaves and control each aspect of each team. That's why a lot of players doesn't want to do anything with them. Like Idra (teamless), doesn't want to be in a team that is related to KESPA. Also some of their rules are just stupid, not logical and utterly non sense.
Sc2con is kinda KESPA wannabee but with no real power. They are so rash on deciding things and backfire in the end (see TSL and FXO drama).
i don't understand why people have such a negative view of kespa being 'dictators'. it's not kespa, it's the corporate sponsors recognising that for their players to perform the best (therefore increasing exposure blah blah), they have to 'encourage' their players to play n hours a day. kespa don't control this at all, they just referee the industry.
don't understand why people even think Kespa will involve itself with SC2
Kespa is an organization that was created to "represents" the players, but what is really behind Kespa are the corporations that sponsor and support BW teams
I doubt any of those corporations sponsor a SC2 team. there is no reason for Kespa to transfer to SC2 until some of the corporations behind Kespa essentially own the SC2 teams.
So I'm reading this and what seems to be saying is that SC2con was pissed about foreign teams recruiting Korean players, so they are temporarily disbanding so they can recreate in a more KESPA like organization, hoping to isolate the Korean progamer scene for sc2, in much the same way as was done in BW.
But I really hope I'm wrong.
Edit: the line that scares me is the one about them not being able to enforce their decisions on players. The flags this raises is that if they want to be able to enforce their will, they will have to have some form of leverage over players, which leads me to think that they will go the same was as Kespa with licences for players that they can threaten to revoke. Licences were also hard as shit to get so goodbye new players and foreigner competition.
On September 24 2011 13:22 mtn wrote: KeSPA brings stability, and Professionalism into BW esports. Sometimes they are forcing/making a mistake and that's how it is in - everything.
Every sport has it's Association and SC2 will need it too, or It will all go downhill - Sooner or later.
There is no Rules whatsoever right now. Players/Teams are doing what ever they want and we see more of that every day.
PS. Do you even imagine NBA/NFL/NHL or any other sport without "big guys" taking care of rules and everything?
you really compare tournaments in sc2 to leagues in real life ? what is wrong if there are no rules ? what kind of rules are you talking about anyway ? starcraft has alredy its rules on "how to win a game" , and each tournament have specific rules aswel , if you think we need an organisation for players and teams , why ? what can bring right now an organization ? i rly dont see anything that we lack off . we have competitive teams competitive players , sponsors , coaches , managers , training houses , tournaments . organizations suck so much they only bring drama and force to apply stupid rules ( only in korea cuz only there they are able to do so ) .
p.s. i rly wanna see an organization that come in europe and try to "force" teams and players to do certain things . FREEDOM ftw.
Honestly, Kespa is better than no organization. I prefer one being on a global scale as well given the criss-crossing we're getting with Koreans and foreigner teams.
Kespa has made mistakes, but let's face it. Kespa is no more than the collective group of sponsors that have kept our beloved Korean scene alive for so long. I would welcome a Kespa in SC2. I see WCG 2011 being broadcast on OGN as a early step in that direction (hopefully).
are they quitting on blizzard, or does blizzard know?
cus didn't blizzard authorize SC2Con or something?
edit:
Also, when they say they are dissolving but will work to help/create, may be they just mean "SC2Con" is dissolving but most or all of the people will simply create a "new" organization with new goal/purpose/approach, etc.?
On September 24 2011 14:11 theBizness wrote: If they form KESPA 2.0, foreign teams will never be able to send anybody to the GSL because nobody will be good enough to win a pro gaming license.
That is only if they place a similar system like before. It wouldn't make sense in this stage of the game. Besides, they would be idiots if they alienated... AN ENTIRE GLOBE. They should promote foreigners getting better and playing in their leagues. All they have to do is look at GOM's numbers of foreigner playing vs not.
On September 24 2011 14:11 theBizness wrote: If they form KESPA 2.0, foreign teams will never be able to send anybody to the GSL because nobody will be good enough to win a pro gaming license.
you don't need a pro-gaming liscense to enter the GSL tho...
I know this might sound strange but.. does this mean that they have denied themselves a chance at NASL season 2 for nothing? I mean some of those players might be willing to put up with the various conditions, whereas them coming together to make a collective bargain meant that none of them could go ahead should the bargain fail.
I'm guessing that some Koreans might try again in the subsequent qualifiers.
On September 24 2011 12:14 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, isn´t this bad? I mean crappy ragtag regulation still protects players more than 0 regulation. Dunno about KESPA, they did a lot of good things for BW nobody can deny that but I really never liked some of their decisions.
Meh, best wishes for the korean SC2 players and teams, hopefully something can work out for them
Maybe a player like OGS MC would be playing in the NASL right now (he won second place last season and can easily afford the travel expenses himself) if a SC2CON hadn't forced the teams to negotiate collectively.
As has been stated multiple times, stop spreading lies. SC2con didn't force anything, it was a decision by the players and teams themselves.
If they were to make a KESPA 2.0, it probably would require a license. For all of its faults, KESPA prevented a dilution of the product. The strict system ensured that only the best players made it onto the best teams, which were allowed to participate in the best league. I like the way SC2 is going as much as the next guy, but it's really pretty easy to rank the handful of big tournaments in terms of play quality/skill level... and pretty obvious which is on top.
On September 24 2011 14:11 theBizness wrote: If they form KESPA 2.0, foreign teams will never be able to send anybody to the GSL because nobody will be good enough to win a pro gaming license.
you don't need a pro-gaming liscense to enter the GSL tho...
Moreover, the reason foreigners couldn't get a progaming licence wasn't because of KESPA. It was because they couldn't beat the Koreans who were also trying to get one.
...
So, maybe that would keep them out of the GSL.
And I am pretty sure SC2CON had nothing to do with players not going to NASL - it was the teams that decided they didn't want to go.
I hope there is an organization like Kespa formed in the near future. The need for such infrastructure represents continuing growth of the esport. I don't understand the people who are worried about foreigners being unable to compete, as if this potential issue will be a definite outcome. With the foreign scene as big as it is now, of course there will be accommodations made to cater to such players, either by Kespa or the tournaments themselves.
from an outsider's point of view, it seemed that they did more harm than good. not saying that is actually the case, since (as mentioned earlier) it's just how i perceived them. hopefully their replacement is more aware when it comes to PR and maintaining a professional image.
Maybe i'm just a little bit paranoid, but i see the possibility that kespa, blizzard and sc2con are already negotiating about a possible umbrella organization for starcraft. If this is the case then the disbanding of sc2con would be the logical first step.
On the contrary we need to look at the current state of kespa - blizzard relations, which quite frankly are pretty demolished. I think it all depends on Blizzards view on future developements in the korean esports market and the possible growth of esports in the west.
I dont see why this is necessary honestly. The market protects people from abuse, as they are offering something; their sc2 skills. If a team works a player too hard, or pays too little [or whatever series of abuses are suppose to be ironed out through such a proposed organization] he can and will find a better team that meets his interests. If its a matter of player trades...make out contracts, if the contract is breached in anyway, sue. If its not, again, why would an organization be helpful? It seems like red tape for its own sake. If anything the West, with so-called less business ethics than Korea, and certainly no aspiration for any kind of central organizational structure has had less random controversies than the vastly smaller korean scene. I find that a little odd, but at the very least its proof that a scene built upon contracts and lacking any real regulatory oversight works pretty much fine.
I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
On September 24 2011 14:53 shrinkmaster wrote: Maybe i'm just a little bit paranoid, but i see the possibility that kespa, blizzard and sc2con are already negotiating about a possible umbrella organization for starcraft. If this is the case then the disbanding of sc2con would be the logical first step.
On the contrary we need to look at the current state of kespa - blizzard relations, which quite frankly are pretty demolished. I think it all depends on Blizzards view on future developements in the korean esports market and the possible growth of esports in the west.
I guess only time will tell....
IIRC rumours were saying that they are not that bad anymore(their relationship) but yeah only time will tell...
Big shock. I think there needs to be an organization wherein teams can communicate with one another, but a body that can enforce decisions can also enforce arbitrary or unfair decisions. I think it's best to restrain an organization to a mediator role and let the teams figure stuff out for themselves.
On September 24 2011 12:14 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, isn´t this bad? I mean crappy ragtag regulation still protects players more than 0 regulation. Dunno about KESPA, they did a lot of good things for BW nobody can deny that but I really never liked some of their decisions.
Meh, best wishes for the korean SC2 players and teams, hopefully something can work out for them
Maybe a player like OGS MC would be playing in the NASL right now (he won second place last season and can easily afford the travel expenses himself) if a SC2CON hadn't forced the teams to negotiate collectively.
As has been stated multiple times, stop spreading lies. SC2con didn't force anything, it was a decision by the players and teams themselves.
Yes, all the players and teams independently decided not to communicate with NASL on an individual basis and demand for their travel expenses to be be paid less then two weeks in advance of the broadcast schedule.
I definitely agree with the point that there needs to be some sort of an organization in order for SC2 to grow. As much as people complain about Kespa, they made what BW is today.
A crappy government (US, China, etc) is a lot better than having none imo.
On September 24 2011 15:01 VPCursed wrote: I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
It already isn't allowed in GSL. As much as you enjoy shit talking during games, it is in fact, unprofessional and unfair in a real tournament situation if you think about it.
On September 24 2011 15:01 VPCursed wrote: I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
It already isn't allowed in GSL. As much as you enjoy shit talking during games, it is in fact, unprofessional and unfair in a real tournament situation if you think about it.
True though. Imagine Zenio drop a bomb on IdrA and he quit the game instantly lol
On September 24 2011 15:01 VPCursed wrote: I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
It already isn't allowed in GSL. As much as you enjoy shit talking during games, it is in fact, unprofessional and unfair in a real tournament situation if you think about it.
how is it unfair? any advantage you can get, as long as its legal, seems fair to me. If my opponents wants to react and get mad because of what i typed at him, thats his fault
i didnt put a gun to his head and make him respond, he could have chosen to ignore me completely and then i would have just been wasting my time, distracted from what i should be focusing on
On September 24 2011 12:14 windsupernova wrote: Ummm, isn´t this bad? I mean crappy ragtag regulation still protects players more than 0 regulation. Dunno about KESPA, they did a lot of good things for BW nobody can deny that but I really never liked some of their decisions.
Meh, best wishes for the korean SC2 players and teams, hopefully something can work out for them
Maybe a player like OGS MC would be playing in the NASL right now (he won second place last season and can easily afford the travel expenses himself) if a SC2CON hadn't forced the teams to negotiate collectively.
As has been stated multiple times, stop spreading lies. SC2con didn't force anything, it was a decision by the players and teams themselves.
Yes, all the players and teams independently decided not to communicate with NASL on an individual basis and demand for their travel expenses to be be paid less then two weeks in advance of the broadcast schedule.
Don't be naive.
You do realize only 3 of the 7 teams were in SC2Con that pulled out?
So you're saying the other 4 teams(noteably SlayerS and FXO) said no because they want to follow the SC2Con's rules despite FXO fighting against SC2Con?
You don't be so naive. Most teams have stated why their players are not going to participate. Mainly time-zone, tournament expenses and language barrier issues. I think you are looking into something that has been looked into to death.
Yeah...and who cares about professionalism? Seriously when hockey players are beating the hell out of eachother, who honestly responds with "ackh its so unprofessional!!". Sports, esports included, exist to entertain us. I'm entertained by friendly or hostile banter more than I am none...and vastly more so than watching people get kicked out because they dared to say something other than gg.
On September 24 2011 15:38 lizzard_warish wrote: Yeah...and who cares about professionalism? Seriously when hockey players are beating the hell out of eachother, who honestly responds with "ackh its so unprofessional!!". Sports, esports included, exist to entertain us. I'm entertained by friendly or hostile banter more than I am none...and vastly more so than watching people get kicked out because they dared to say something other than gg.
Ya but hockey players are penalized via power play, and sometimes even kicked out of the game, so yes they are punished. A better example is trash talking between players during a game; for example, Zidane's headbutt at the 06 World Cup was a result of Materazzi trash talking him. Many sports outlets have called Matteratzi out for being unsportsmanlike and tended to be sympathetic towards Zidane after everyone heard what happened (though Zidane was an admired player and was retiring so that did add in)
Hopefully they can eventually get a new organization somehow. We appreciate all their efforts to organize things, and foreigner relations have not made things easier for them, I'm sure. I do hope they keep things open to foreigners, but welcome any structure that may come in the future.
On September 24 2011 15:38 lizzard_warish wrote: Yeah...and who cares about professionalism? Seriously when hockey players are beating the hell out of eachother, who honestly responds with "ackh its so unprofessional!!". Sports, esports included, exist to entertain us. I'm entertained by friendly or hostile banter more than I am none...and vastly more so than watching people get kicked out because they dared to say something other than gg.
Ya but hockey players are penalized via power play, and sometimes even kicked out of the game, so yes they are punished. A better example is trash talking between players during a game; for example, Zidane's headbutt at the 06 World Cup was a result of Materazzi trash talking him. Many sports outlets have called Matteratzi out for being unsportsmanlike and tended to be sympathetic towards Zidane after everyone heard what happened (though Zidane was an admired player and was retiring so that did add in)
But the thing is that most of the time that trahtalk stays between the players, and when stuff like the Zidane Headbut happen people usually don´t like it.
I honestly don´t know why people want to see WWE style trashtalking, especially when BM is not usually that witty anyways. To each his own I guess but I don´t really get pumped when idra calls someone bad haha
On September 24 2011 15:01 VPCursed wrote: I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
It already isn't allowed in GSL. As much as you enjoy shit talking during games, it is in fact, unprofessional and unfair in a real tournament situation if you think about it.
how is it unfair? any advantage you can get, as long as its legal, seems fair to me. If my opponents wants to react and get mad because of what i typed at him, thats his fault
i didnt put a gun to his head and make him respond, he could have chosen to ignore me completely and then i would have just been wasting my time, distracted from what i should be focusing on
On September 24 2011 15:01 VPCursed wrote: I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
It already isn't allowed in GSL. As much as you enjoy shit talking during games, it is in fact, unprofessional and unfair in a real tournament situation if you think about it.
ye and MLG is much more entertaining then GSL, granted GSL does have tastosis most of the time and Higher quality of play... MLG just is 100x more exciting for me.
On September 24 2011 16:12 JustPassingBy wrote: why exactly do people feel that something like Kespa is needed?
Organization is good. Rules are good. They lead to legitimacy. Look at all the bull shit that goes on in the scene right now. Kespa is far from perfect. But something is needed. Teams need to band together as well as players, just like in major sports. The NFL wouldn't be where it is today without the organization it has.
Better with a new Kespa that can do something than an organization that can't do shit. But as some others pointed out, it's probably not necessary yet, and would be better if it was on a global scale, but I'd assume thats not possible anyway.
People focus on the stupid small things KeSPA did that annoy people like referee decisions. Look at the bigger picture and the stability it provides to everyone. In my opinion an organization like this is essential at some point, every sport has to have a governing body.
I do not agree. And I do not understand. Why is it necessary that such an organization can 'enforce' stuff on people? I thought this organization was supposed to protect the interests of players.
I don't think a more 'strict' organization would be helpful at all. It would most certainly lead to all the bad stuff that happened with KeSPA as well....
I believe strongly that stability for players can be achieved without one all powerful governing body, which would naturally begin to abuse this power sooner rather than later (because it's business). Probably the best way to protect players interests would be very strict contracts between players and teams, and not an organization that does as it pleases.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
On September 24 2011 17:24 infinity2k9 wrote: People focus on the stupid small things KeSPA did that annoy people like referee decisions. Look at the bigger picture and the stability it provides to everyone. In my opinion an organization like this is essential at some point, every sport has to have a governing body.
On September 24 2011 15:38 lizzard_warish wrote: Yeah...and who cares about professionalism? Seriously when hockey players are beating the hell out of eachother, who honestly responds with "ackh its so unprofessional!!". Sports, esports included, exist to entertain us. I'm entertained by friendly or hostile banter more than I am none...and vastly more so than watching people get kicked out because they dared to say something other than gg.
No, true sports exist as a competition for the participants first a foremost, and professionalism, sportsmanship and fairness will always come first; the entertainment for the audience comes second. What you're thinking of are fake sports like WWE. I understand that the American media had turn most of it's audience into drama-hungry beasts when it comes to sports, but please, the rest of the world doesn't need that type of "sport". Many of us still enjoy watching the actual competition aspect of sports, so please keep E-sport that way; if you want drama, there are a lot at the movie theaters.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
SC2Con was pretty toothless. It seems inevitable that Kespa will step in soon, especially considering the strength of the foreigner scene - though hopefully there will be a more balanced relationship between players, teams and sponsors. A mediator's what's needed.
Lets just let this game actually grow as much as it can. Lets get to the point when we no longer have tournaments popping up left and right, let's get to the point where sc2 teams in korea could survive without gom and the gsl each month. Let's get to the point where we have our set of tournaments that happen each year.
And than we should start working towards a global orginasation like kespa.
On September 24 2011 15:01 VPCursed wrote: I really hope we dont see some sort of KeSpa like entity.. Id hate to see the days where idra can no longer talk a little shit or huk saying something in chat during a game.. ("Just saying, you weren"t loss) what if this was no longer possible? It's always fun to see drama and it gives more opportunities for players to show there personality. I really hope we don't see some sort of organization pop up. It would only hinder SC2 in the e-sports world imo
It already isn't allowed in GSL. As much as you enjoy shit talking during games, it is in fact, unprofessional and unfair in a real tournament situation if you think about it.
ye and MLG is much more entertaining then GSL, granted GSL does have tastosis most of the time and Higher quality of play... MLG just is 100x more exciting for me.
And it isnt allowed in MLG as well. "No ingame talk expect pregame sportmanship & forfeiting the game". All those "dont worry it's halo" or "you know those where hallus - fuck off" cases were against the rules and should've ended with a forfeit of the game. (Gameplay Rules 3 & 6) It's just that MLG doesnt give a shit about their rules as long as they benefit from them (more hype, drama, excitment). Yes, the rule is crap, but then you should remove the rule and not ignore it.
On September 24 2011 17:24 infinity2k9 wrote: People focus on the stupid small things KeSPA did that annoy people like referee decisions. Look at the bigger picture and the stability it provides to everyone. In my opinion an organization like this is essential at some point, every sport has to have a governing body.
I agree with this. Dont break over small rules (ppp incident). That stuff was stupid, yes. But as long as the rules are reasonable why not? Such an organization can benefit the players & the teams as well. i.e. with streamlined contracts rights & duties of the player & team).
On September 24 2011 13:11 Alkior wrote: What is Kespa and what did they do to make everyone hate them. Isint an organization good? They handle all the business crap and what not?
Also why does everyone hate sc2con too?
KESPA is just like a dictator. They treat players like slaves and control each aspect of each team. That's why a lot of players doesn't want to do anything with them. Like Idra (teamless), doesn't want to be in a team that is related to KESPA. Also some of their rules are just stupid, not logical and utterly non sense.
Sc2con is kinda KESPA wannabee but with no real power. They are so rash on deciding things and backfire in the end (see TSL and FXO drama).
i don't understand why people have such a negative view of kespa being 'dictators'. it's not kespa, it's the corporate sponsors recognising that for their players to perform the best (therefore increasing exposure blah blah), they have to 'encourage' their players to play n hours a day. kespa don't control this at all, they just referee the industry.
I don't see why you would want kespa in sc2 then anyway since they're controlled by the sponsors.. It doesn't really matter if they enforce it for themself or the corporations since the rules get enforced and I doubt a lot of people want that.
the problem with sc2con was that even though the foreign scene has taken off to much in sc2, the koreans want to make all the decisions themselves. unlike kespa which represents 99% of broodwar sc2con represented 20% of sc2, and tried to make decisions which affected everyone
no wonder they couldnt achieve anything
yet it sounds like they just want kespa2, still not respecting the foreign scenes importance to the game
I don't think the foreign scene was very aware of SC2con anyway, it was kind of this... weird entity that not many people knew what was. So I guess I feel indifferent on this, to some extent.
We dont really need a committe to make the rules of the game, but more to look for more sponsors, globalise SC2 and make sure all players are in good condition, and that teams stay alive
Does anyone know how the meeting between FXOBoss and SC2Con went? I remember him posting some accusations, which prompted SC2Con to ask for a meeting to discuss things in September
I wonder if this has anything to do with the disband?
On September 24 2011 21:57 ELA wrote: Does anyone know how the meeting between FXOBoss and SC2Con went? I remember him posting some accusations, which prompted SC2Con to ask for a meeting to discuss things in September
I wonder if this has anything to do with the disband?
Given this statement as soon as the news broke, possible?
On September 24 2011 12:15 FXOpen wrote: I didn't resolve my situation, but I do believe this is the best for the people in involved.
On September 24 2011 21:57 ELA wrote: Does anyone know how the meeting between FXOBoss and SC2Con went? I remember him posting some accusations, which prompted SC2Con to ask for a meeting to discuss things in September
I wonder if this has anything to do with the disband?
Given this statement as soon as the news broke, possible?
this is not a good thing....this will lead to Kespa sc2. A strong arm organization that is going to regulate every aspect of Organized SC2. From foreigners coming into Korea to Koreans go to foreigner tournaments. team swaps,player swaps, mergers, all this will fall under a new KeSpa which will now use theyre powers to form Sc2 in what they want it to be.
On September 24 2011 22:17 Vindubs wrote: this is not a good thing....this will lead to Kespa sc2. A strong arm organization that is going to regulate every aspect of Organized SC2. From foreigners coming into Korea to Koreans go to foreigner tournaments. team swaps,player swaps, mergers, all this will fall under a new KeSpa which will now use theyre powers to form Sc2 in what they want it to be.
Mark my words.
Everything you said only applies to the Korean scene. Mousesports, EG, complexity, Liquid and the other big teams (as well as Dreamhack, IEM, MLG and the other major tournaments in the world) and everything that's happening in SC2 over the world would not be affected.
Isolation inevitably leads to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene. It would be the death knell of SC2 in Korea (or at least majorly stunt its growth), while it would continue to flourish everywhere else.
No one interested in seeing SC2 fulfill its potential as the premiere e-sport of the future should ask for a Kespa 2.0.
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
2) do not allow pro players streaming. Disgusting that an organisation could make that decision for every team and every player instead of leaving it up to them.
3) did attempt to strong-arm FXO and choya to comply with their demands. They had no right and no control to intervene in internal team affairs like they did, and the way they tried to get their way was fucking shameful (harassment, threats, blackmail).
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
2) do not allow pro players streaming. Disgusting that an organisation could make that decision for every team and every player instead of leaving it up to them.
3) did attempt to strong-arm FXO and choya to comply with their demands. They had no right and no control to intervene in internal team affairs like they did, and the way they tried to get their way was fucking shameful (harassment, threats, blackmail).
I agree, it was weird because personally I had never heard of sc2con untill the NASL incident. Then all of a sudden for like 3 weeks straight there was a drama filled post about something wrong sc2con did. Not surprised FXO (not fxo korea) had the foresight to bounce when they did. This organization isn't needed IMO. Their demands were crazy, and they just kind of appeared out of no where assuming power. I bet teams like eg,liquid etc were like "Hey, wait a minute. Who the fuck put you in charge anyways?"
as long as some teams are strong enough to don't play along they should be fine ^^. I wouldn't mind if the emporer himself would take control over the esport xD. But anything else will turn into kespa, good at the beginning, but at the end impossible to burn it down to the corrupted roots.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
I think this is good. If there is going to be a governing body at all it needs to be one with more influence than sc2con had. That being said, I dont want kespa in SC2. Would be nice if all teams could come together and make a union or something and let the players do the same and make a players union. I think that would benefit everyone involved.
On September 24 2011 12:12 Synapze wrote: An organization like KESPA on a global scale would be ideal in my opinion.
As long as they're less autocratic more flexible about the rules and more flexible about allowing decent change within the esport scene than KeSPA, I'm cool with a global Starcraft II organisation.
Although I see Blizzard more as one, seeing as Battle.net seems to be claiming rights over broadcasting and holding tournaments for prizes larger than $5,000.
A good example of a global organisation that regulates sports is FIFA. However, there have been allegations of corruption within the organisation and they've been quite reluctant to introduce change (like goal line technology) when it's clearly better than having referees not see a goal then disallow it.
I dont totally see why people feel the need for Kespa in the place of sc2con. I dont personally have a problem with the way they operated because frankly I dont know enough about the subject to comment, but involving a specifically Korean group into the sc2 scene just seems unhelpful. Whilst starcraft 2 might be the successor to starcraft, it seems to me that it's scene is largely built upon the teams and organisations of games like wc3, 1.6 etc. and their leagues and tournaments such as ESL, DH and MLG (from halo/console obv). Its a market that's been growing at a relatively ok pace so far, even if games are gradually replaced with newer to capture newer markets, but so far the leagues and teams havent been doing a terrible job of organising themselves.
I can see that perhaps a degree of organisation might be beneficial but its not Korea's place to try and legislate on a global scale. To a degree, Korea has only just arrived at a party thats been going on for a decade already and they should buy into a play by their hosts rules. Kespa not required.
I'll be interested to see what happens with the hole they are leaving behind. If something like Kepsa can take up that role, AND get along with blizzard, that'd be great.
On September 24 2011 12:15 lbmaian wrote: I was half expecting this: 1) Notable teams weren't in it (Slayers, FXO). 2) There was too much controversy surrounding it. 3) It had no power, and the rules it seemed to try to make where never strictly followed. For ex, I think they discourage streaming, but StarTale let's their players do so.
On the other hand, I have mixed feelings about Kespa. They have done some absolutely ridiculous shit. The battle between Kespa and Blizzard was just greedy and spiteful beyond belief (both sides lost).
But Kespa governing SC2 would bring an air of "legitimacy". It would also pave the way for BW players to freely transfer to SC2 without losing their "progaming status" (whatever that means).
SC2Con sounds like the League of Nations of Starcraft. Next up- a war between players and teams and then United Nations!
i think it was better for the teams to rule themselves with some kind of improved SC2con than a new organization like mst people say , wich would probably be a bunch of suits that only care about the money $$
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
Player Unions and livable salaries for even B-teamer is great and I agree. But it's a niche market and the only revenue stream for the teams are corporations, some flush with cash, and some not. To blame Kespa for B-teamers wages is same as blaming GSL for all the financial trouble SC2 players/teams have. Low wages for B-teamers are simply a reality of E-sports atm. If anything SC2 "S-class" (lol) gets paid almost nothing or peanuts and have to win tournaments to have a livable wage.
If anything blame the Korean gov't for not having enough safety nets :/
Joy to the Starcraft 2 world! I hate this organization and everything it stands for and I'm glad it's gone.
I know some people are saying that an organization like this is needed/necessary. I don't think so.
We already have organizations...they're called teams. I like teams as being the primary organizations because they're directly interacting with the players and are most likely to represent their interests. When you get organizations like SC2Con, the interests of the players is diluted and sacrificed for the interests of the organization, much like in any union.
I think if a player wants to stream, or wants to wear a specific uniform, or wants to be in a specific tournament, it is between him and his team manager.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
Actually, they were. Never officially, but they were.
What I believe happened from all that I've read (and I read a lot about this situation), is that 1-2 Korean teams were dissatisfied with the deposits and travel costs because of lack of funding.
I believe SC2Con's role was to represent the wishes of those few teams, by forcing an all-Korean withdrawal.
If you've read FXO's post about SC2Con's methods of...persuasion...before he edited it, you would see Sc2Con acts through threats, harassment and intimidation. Additionally, they represent a strong Korean vs The World mantra, so it is very likely that they harassed team managers into abiding, threatening to label them Korean traitors.
The evidence I have for this is that despite the fact that this was allegedly an independent decision by teams, no team manager EVER contacted Xeris directly to negotiate or state a withdrawal, nor did they respond to Xeris after Chae brought up the issue. They stated that they didn't know who was behind the decision when Xeris asked them so that Xeris could talk to the decision-maker.
Also, many players have stated that they wanted to participate but couldn't/had to get permission. Some even showed up their matches.
Plus, I don't see why a team like OGS (with 2nd place winner MC and lots of sponsorship) wouldn't have participated, ESPECIALLY after the Korean withdrawal. It appears that they were forced to comply with the wishes of other Koreans, and the only way that would happen is through a 3rd party that was enforcing the compliance through some kind of intimidation (in this case, being a traitor).
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
SC2 has even less money in it salary wise than BW though? There simply isn't enough money in eSports for B-teamers to be paid salaries. It's unfortunate but that's how it is... i don't see how KeSPA is responsible for this. If you tried to have a 'minimum wage' then there simply would not be B-teamers as official progamers in the teams. Instead the players would simply be online practice partners and still playing the game all day just without free accommodation and food, which is just worse than the current situation.
Niche sports like this can't have salaries for everyone, it's the same with many activities i bet. Like think how dedicated many athletes are in the more lesser known Olympic or other events... and the many people training to try and simply qualify for the events. They are in similar situations. The fact that so many A-teamers are still paid (and pretty well too in a lot of cases) i think is a good sign thing as it is. Sure it would be nice if lower level players were paid, but where is this money going to come from? The sponsors already pay a LOT of money for only promotion in return.. i think they are being fairly generous as it is.
edit: wassbix said the same thing basically. It seems the KeSPA hate is a total bandwagon on here, people who never even followed BW seem to have a grudge against them for no apparent reason. By the sounds of the post above me it seems like this organization was certainly worse in it's actions. The only thing you could have against them is pulling NaDa (a player under contract) from an SC2 showmatch; which why wouldn't they do when they were in a lawsuit against Blizzard, seems totally justified. Other than that they have had no involvement and it's been clearly detrimental to the Korean scene not to involve them.
People keep bringing up the foreign scene and minor foreign tournaments as if we should care and they should even be involved in anything like this in the first place. Organization is needed for the top level of progaming, no one gives a shit about controlling the rest of it.
Well I had no love for the SC2con but I am afraid the power void will be filled by Kespa 2.0. Better to have a powerless figurehead organization thinking it can call the shots than an actual dictatorial regime that abuses its power.
Meh in my opinion Kespa created many good player that otherwise be average. In a harsh environment, the few talent will step up to the occasion. SC2 needs something like that, especially in Korea if they want a huge live attraction.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
Actually, they were. Never officially, but they were.
What I believe happened from all that I've read (and I read a lot about this situation), is that 1-2 Korean teams were dissatisfied with the deposits and travel costs because of lack of funding.
I believe SC2Con's role was to represent the wishes of those few teams, by forcing an all-Korean withdrawal.
If you've read FXO's post about SC2Con's methods of...persuasion...before he edited it, you would see Sc2Con acts through threats, harassment and intimidation. Additionally, they represent a strong Korean vs The World mantra, so it is very likely that they harassed team managers into abiding, threatening to label them Korean traitors.
Well said.
There's a reason why the two most independent Korean teams (SlayerS, FXO) didn't want anything to do with SC2con. Smaller teams didn't have the luxury of independence and were forced to comply with SC2con. Very happy that their strong-arm tactics did not pan out, even though it cost us (and NASL) a certain price to see it happen.
I wonder if that and the FXO incident weren't key factors when SC2con realised they didn't have as much power over everyone as they thought and disbanding was appropriate.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
People keep bringing up the foreign scene and minor foreign tournaments as if we should care and they should even be involved in anything like this in the first place. Organization is needed for the top level of progaming, no one gives a shit about controlling the rest of it.
The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
Actually, they were. Never officially, but they were.
What I believe happened from all that I've read (and I read a lot about this situation), is that 1-2 Korean teams were dissatisfied with the deposits and travel costs because of lack of funding.
I believe SC2Con's role was to represent the wishes of those few teams, by forcing an all-Korean withdrawal.
If you've read FXO's post about SC2Con's methods of...persuasion...before he edited it, you would see Sc2Con acts through threats, harassment and intimidation. Additionally, they represent a strong Korean vs The World mantra, so it is very likely that they harassed team managers into abiding, threatening to label them Korean traitors.
Well said.
There's a reason why the two most independent Korean teams (SlayerS, FXO) didn't want anything to do with SC2con. Smaller teams didn't have the luxury of independence and were forced to comply with SC2con. Very happy that their strong-arm tactics did not pan out, even though it cost us (and NASL) a certain price to see it happen.
I wonder if that and the FXO incident weren't key factors when SC2con realised they didn't have as much power over everyone as they thought and disbanding was appropriate.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
People keep bringing up the foreign scene and minor foreign tournaments as if we should care and they should even be involved in anything like this in the first place. Organization is needed for the top level of progaming, no one gives a shit about controlling the rest of it.
The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
This ain't BW, son.
Kespa is a board of teams/sponsors, ofc they control the league... they run and pay for most of the costs. If anything they ran it pretty fucking well since we're seeing BW on TV for 10 years strong, with wide range of viewers, while every other e-sport is delegated to teenage nerds watching it on an internet streams.
Kespa did not "kill" the foreigner scene. Foreigner scene just stopped being competitive. Lot of foreigners were present at the start and one epic Canadian even won an OSL. It's not Kespa's fault foreigners sucked at the game and couldn't compete at the highest level.
Are people really angry at Kespa doesn't give the poor foreigner pity air time despite being below most Korean B-teamers? Not giving shitty players air time means its serious and legitimate e-sport.
On September 25 2011 02:53 Bobster wrote:The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
This ain't BW, son.
Again: they do not give a shit about 'controlling' the foreign scene and top level sc2 needs some kind of organization instead of being a total mess like it is now. You are just talking paranoid bullshit. If KeSPA was involved in the first place it would already be more stable and bigger than it is now, but that's totally irrelevant to the foreign scene anyway.
It's arguable how 'strong' the foreign scene is, how many players are even on a decent above minimum wage salary? Or are pro's supposed to live solely off prize money, cause that is NOT a stable scene.
I see this as a good thing. I can't remember ever hearing good news that involved SC2Con, but I heard plenty of bad news. Hopefully a new body can take its place.
Koreans have to realize having a kespa 2 right now would be insanely selfish and probably kill Starcraft 2 until all of BW moved over to SC2. SC2 IS a global game unlike BW right now. Korea may have the best players still but they are definitely not making sc2 what it is alone.
Foreign tourneys and teams have put in probably far more money collectively than korea has and it would be utter shit for some solely korean based kespa 2 to come and say hey, korea owns sc2 and you play by our rules now. If all the non korean funding was erased, sc2 would be a joke right now instead of a worldwide success. Similarly if all korean players pulled out of international events because some kespa 2 says sc2 tourneys can only run under their rules and guidance, sc2 would largely die.
Any organization would have to be an international organization where non koreans have just as much say as koreans because they are putting just as much if not more into SC2 right now than korea is.
On September 25 2011 02:53 Bobster wrote:The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
This ain't BW, son.
Again: they do not give a shit about 'controlling' the foreign scene and top level sc2 needs some kind of organization instead of being a total mess like it is now. You are just talking paranoid bullshit. If KeSPA was involved in the first place it would already be more stable and bigger than it is now, but that's totally irrelevant to the foreign scene anyway.
It's arguable how 'strong' the foreign scene is, how many players are even on a decent above minimum wage salary? Or are pro's supposed to live solely off prize money, cause that is NOT a stable scene.
Well, Kespa 2.0 can try and regulate the Korean scene, but I don't see just how productive this would be, especially concerning relations to the NA/EU teams. Will they prevent Korean talent from going abroad? Will they stop NA/EU teams from benefitting from Korea's training houses? Isolation can only lead to decline and obsoleteness.
I can't see a strong-arm organisation like Kespa having a positive impact on players, teams or international relations. The scene is better off without something like that. Leave the sponsor search up to the individual teams and TV negotiations up to the licence holders in the various countries (like they did in Taiwan).
I don't know why people are optimistic about the next iteration of this. It clearly states a "soft" approach didn't work. They will come back and be bigger jerks. Did everyone miss that line?
It just seems to me all they want to do is control and dictate instead being persuasive and cooperative.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
Player Unions and livable salaries for even B-teamer is great and I agree. But it's a niche market and the only revenue stream for the teams are corporations, some flush with cash, and some not. To blame Kespa for B-teamers wages is same as blaming GSL for all the financial trouble SC2 players/teams have. Low wages for B-teamers are simply a reality of E-sports atm. If anything SC2 "S-class" (lol) gets paid almost nothing or peanuts and have to win tournaments to have a livable wage.
If anything blame the Korean gov't for not having enough safety nets :/
Really? I don't think the gov't should pay for kids that want to be pro gamers that don't make enough. I think that's pretty ridiculous. The scene supports what it can support. The players are happy playing the game they love. If they get sick of it, they'll quit. It's like the minor leagues in baseball. You're not in it for the money, bud. If you are, you need to pick a new career.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
Player Unions and livable salaries for even B-teamer is great and I agree. But it's a niche market and the only revenue stream for the teams are corporations, some flush with cash, and some not. To blame Kespa for B-teamers wages is same as blaming GSL for all the financial trouble SC2 players/teams have. Low wages for B-teamers are simply a reality of E-sports atm. If anything SC2 "S-class" (lol) gets paid almost nothing or peanuts and have to win tournaments to have a livable wage.
If anything blame the Korean gov't for not having enough safety nets :/
Really? I don't think the gov't should pay for kids that want to be pro gamers that don't make enough. I think that's pretty ridiculous. The scene supports what it can support. The players are happy playing the game they love. If they get sick of it, they'll quit. It's like the minor leagues in baseball. You're not in it for the money, bud. If you are, you need to pick a new career.
Progaming in Korea is not like Minor league baseball dude, it's more like their NFL to them.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
Player Unions and livable salaries for even B-teamer is great and I agree. But it's a niche market and the only revenue stream for the teams are corporations, some flush with cash, and some not. To blame Kespa for B-teamers wages is same as blaming GSL for all the financial trouble SC2 players/teams have. Low wages for B-teamers are simply a reality of E-sports atm. If anything SC2 "S-class" (lol) gets paid almost nothing or peanuts and have to win tournaments to have a livable wage.
If anything blame the Korean gov't for not having enough safety nets :/
Really? I don't think the gov't should pay for kids that want to be pro gamers that don't make enough. I think that's pretty ridiculous. The scene supports what it can support. The players are happy playing the game they love. If they get sick of it, they'll quit. It's like the minor leagues in baseball. You're not in it for the money, bud. If you are, you need to pick a new career.
Progaming in Korea is not like Minor league baseball dude, it's more like their NFL to them.
Not even close. Go read some of Rekrul's posts about Korea. SC in Korea is mainstream like the WWE is mainstream.
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
Player Unions and livable salaries for even B-teamer is great and I agree. But it's a niche market and the only revenue stream for the teams are corporations, some flush with cash, and some not. To blame Kespa for B-teamers wages is same as blaming GSL for all the financial trouble SC2 players/teams have. Low wages for B-teamers are simply a reality of E-sports atm. If anything SC2 "S-class" (lol) gets paid almost nothing or peanuts and have to win tournaments to have a livable wage.
If anything blame the Korean gov't for not having enough safety nets :/
Really? I don't think the gov't should pay for kids that want to be pro gamers that don't make enough. I think that's pretty ridiculous. The scene supports what it can support. The players are happy playing the game they love. If they get sick of it, they'll quit. It's like the minor leagues in baseball. You're not in it for the money, bud. If you are, you need to pick a new career.
I'm talking about general social safety nets, regardless of what you career/job choices are. Not that gov't pays B-teamers...
Seriously all htis KESPA hate is.. paranoid and moronic.
Did KESPA made some really stupid rules and decision?
Yes, definitively.
But without KESPA e sports wouldn´t be what it is now, they helped the scene a lot(and hindered it in some ways but thats not the point). And LOL @ KESPA killing BW outside of Korea, did they make everyone magically suck?
I don't think the KeSPA hate is unfounded. I mean, you only need to refer to the search bar to look up their history and shit that people around here disagreed with outright. I feel like it belittles what actually happened when people claim it's just the whole ppp incidents. Maybe people have short term memories or really weren't around, but I remember when PL was stolen, when JD almost lost his career (thank God that worked out), and even the whole bullshit surrounding NaDa as he switched over. I have a very valid reason to dislike KeSPA given their past, but at the same time I'd be welcoming of it if someone I trust can dip their hands in. I definitely see the benefits of KeSPA taking over, and I'd be less wary if there was someone in KeSPA I could trust. That's why I'd love for Mr. Chae to be involved in whatever becomes the governing SC2 body. Not only has he shown to care about the foreign fans, but he cares about the players, the scene, and does all he can to unite it globally. I just don't know how KeSPA could handle all that with literally no contacts to the outside world, and SC2 is still very much part of the outside world.
So I'm half/half on KeSPA getting involved. On one hand I think it'd be absolutely great for the scene in Korea, but on the other I worry about some of the crap players tried to get away from when switching over.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
Actually, they were. Never officially, but they were.
What I believe happened from all that I've read (and I read a lot about this situation), is that 1-2 Korean teams were dissatisfied with the deposits and travel costs because of lack of funding.
I believe SC2Con's role was to represent the wishes of those few teams, by forcing an all-Korean withdrawal.
If you've read FXO's post about SC2Con's methods of...persuasion...before he edited it, you would see Sc2Con acts through threats, harassment and intimidation. Additionally, they represent a strong Korean vs The World mantra, so it is very likely that they harassed team managers into abiding, threatening to label them Korean traitors.
Well said.
There's a reason why the two most independent Korean teams (SlayerS, FXO) didn't want anything to do with SC2con. Smaller teams didn't have the luxury of independence and were forced to comply with SC2con. Very happy that their strong-arm tactics did not pan out, even though it cost us (and NASL) a certain price to see it happen.
I wonder if that and the FXO incident weren't key factors when SC2con realised they didn't have as much power over everyone as they thought and disbanding was appropriate.
On September 25 2011 02:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
On September 24 2011 18:53 Slakter wrote:
On September 24 2011 18:45 infinity2k9 wrote:
On September 24 2011 17:53 Slakter wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
People keep bringing up the foreign scene and minor foreign tournaments as if we should care and they should even be involved in anything like this in the first place. Organization is needed for the top level of progaming, no one gives a shit about controlling the rest of it.
The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
This ain't BW, son.
Kespa is a board of teams/sponsors, ofc they control the league... they run and pay for most of the costs. If anything they ran it pretty fucking well since we're seeing BW on TV for 10 years strong, with wide range of viewers, while every other e-sport is delegated to teenage nerds watching it on an internet streams.
Kespa did not "kill" the foreigner scene. Foreigner scene just stopped being competitive. Lot of foreigners were present at the start and one epic Canadian even won an OSL. It's not Kespa's fault foreigners sucked at the game and couldn't compete at the highest level.
Are people really angry at Kespa doesn't give the poor foreigner pity air time despite being below most Korean B-teamers? Not giving shitty players air time means its serious and legitimate e-sport.
their lack of desire to help and explore leagues and stuff for international players, whether they are b-teamers or worse is what has lead to stagnation in the broodwar scene. kespa's completely internal view point is what will kill broodwar. maybe not today, maybe not this year, but if you dont care about growth the only way is down.
and we sit here now talking about how the korean scene needs western money in sc2, to help bring them into the international game so they can take part.
the same argument can be levied at BW, the lack of money in the foreign scene makes it very very hard to break into as a white guy. im not saying the koreans arent the best in the world, but baring having the greatest BW talent of all time, its impossible to bankroll a career in BW now to last you long enough to go pro.
this is the flaw with looking after the teams and sponsors above all else.
teams dont matter, teams will come and go. sponsors and players are what matter, that (imo) is kespas flaw
I guess I just don't understand why these guys think they need an organization to have control over things and make unilateral decisions on how things should be solved. I mean it is good to have non-biased mediators but at the end of the day if you don't plan for the worst then you have to grow through the growing pains. Having an organization just seems like a bunch of random people looking for power under the guise of helping the scene succeed.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
Actually, they were. Never officially, but they were.
What I believe happened from all that I've read (and I read a lot about this situation), is that 1-2 Korean teams were dissatisfied with the deposits and travel costs because of lack of funding.
I believe SC2Con's role was to represent the wishes of those few teams, by forcing an all-Korean withdrawal.
If you've read FXO's post about SC2Con's methods of...persuasion...before he edited it, you would see Sc2Con acts through threats, harassment and intimidation. Additionally, they represent a strong Korean vs The World mantra, so it is very likely that they harassed team managers into abiding, threatening to label them Korean traitors.
Well said.
There's a reason why the two most independent Korean teams (SlayerS, FXO) didn't want anything to do with SC2con. Smaller teams didn't have the luxury of independence and were forced to comply with SC2con. Very happy that their strong-arm tactics did not pan out, even though it cost us (and NASL) a certain price to see it happen.
I wonder if that and the FXO incident weren't key factors when SC2con realised they didn't have as much power over everyone as they thought and disbanding was appropriate.
On September 25 2011 02:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
On September 24 2011 18:53 Slakter wrote:
On September 24 2011 18:45 infinity2k9 wrote:
On September 24 2011 17:53 Slakter wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
People keep bringing up the foreign scene and minor foreign tournaments as if we should care and they should even be involved in anything like this in the first place. Organization is needed for the top level of progaming, no one gives a shit about controlling the rest of it.
The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
This ain't BW, son.
Kespa is a board of teams/sponsors, ofc they control the league... they run and pay for most of the costs. If anything they ran it pretty fucking well since we're seeing BW on TV for 10 years strong, with wide range of viewers, while every other e-sport is delegated to teenage nerds watching it on an internet streams.
Kespa did not "kill" the foreigner scene. Foreigner scene just stopped being competitive. Lot of foreigners were present at the start and one epic Canadian even won an OSL. It's not Kespa's fault foreigners sucked at the game and couldn't compete at the highest level.
Are people really angry at Kespa doesn't give the poor foreigner pity air time despite being below most Korean B-teamers? Not giving shitty players air time means its serious and legitimate e-sport.
their lack of desire to help and explore leagues and stuff for international players, whether they are b-teamers or worse is what has lead to stagnation in the broodwar scene. kespa's completely internal view point is what will kill broodwar. maybe not today, maybe not this year, but if you dont care about growth the only way is down.
and we sit here now talking about how the korean scene needs western money in sc2, to help bring them into the international game so they can take part.
the same argument can be levied at BW, the lack of money in the foreign scene makes it very very hard to break into as a white guy. im not saying the koreans arent the best in the world, but baring having the greatest BW talent of all time, its impossible to bankroll a career in BW now to last you long enough to go pro.
this is the flaw with looking after the teams and sponsors above all else.
teams dont matter, teams will come and go. sponsors and players are what matter, that (imo) is kespas flaw
Kespa IS the sponsor of the team and they fund all of the teamhouses. They are also in charge of making BW legitimate so sponsors outside of just XXXTREME *insert computer hardware* is willing to sponsor tournaments for a videogame.
You think Korea Air/Shinan Bank/ABC mart is going to sponsor a tournament if an organization like Kespa did not exist?
They sponsor BW because they know:
A) Other major corporations are willing to fund teams/teamhouses (a much larger investment than just a single OSL/MSL) B) Pro-gamers are licensed with a set rule for their conduct (Not anyone can call themselves a progamer and stream themselves calling people "faggot ass noob" on streams or w/e) C) Tournaments are ran with professional conduct. They have strict guidelines of how they are ran and professional casters.
Guess who is responsible for all that structure? Do you see something like that ever happening in SC2 without an organization with actual power?
PS Kespa has been trying to expand internationally, except to China. Because BW scene in NA/EU was tiny and not all that good, compared to Korea. Its not their fault BW completely died out after 3-4 years outside Korea, thats literally how every game has been in NA. So to blame them for being sane and not pouring endless money in a hopeless market is just childish.
This really shows a lot of humility on the part of the members of sc2con, and it's great to hear that the people at the top are putting in a serious effort to give the teams the best organizational structure they can. It takes a very strong group to decide that they are not needed, and to set out to create something better. Good job to everyone involved, I have a lot of faith in the former members of sc2con to create something really strong and lasting to take this sport into the future.
On September 24 2011 22:46 Bobster wrote: SC2con was dead in my eyes when I heard that they
1) were responsible for less Koreans in NASL because while only some of the teams weren't happy, everyone else had to bow out due to SC2con forcing "solidarity" - basically, if one team doesn't want to play, no one plays. Without SC2con, we would've had more Korean players than the 6 (on non-Korean teams) we have now, make no mistake.
Auctally sc2con wasn't involved in that decision at all, and had nothing to do with it. It was all the teams talking together about it and mr. Chae being the front man (so to speak)
Actually, they were. Never officially, but they were.
What I believe happened from all that I've read (and I read a lot about this situation), is that 1-2 Korean teams were dissatisfied with the deposits and travel costs because of lack of funding.
I believe SC2Con's role was to represent the wishes of those few teams, by forcing an all-Korean withdrawal.
If you've read FXO's post about SC2Con's methods of...persuasion...before he edited it, you would see Sc2Con acts through threats, harassment and intimidation. Additionally, they represent a strong Korean vs The World mantra, so it is very likely that they harassed team managers into abiding, threatening to label them Korean traitors.
Well said.
There's a reason why the two most independent Korean teams (SlayerS, FXO) didn't want anything to do with SC2con. Smaller teams didn't have the luxury of independence and were forced to comply with SC2con. Very happy that their strong-arm tactics did not pan out, even though it cost us (and NASL) a certain price to see it happen.
I wonder if that and the FXO incident weren't key factors when SC2con realised they didn't have as much power over everyone as they thought and disbanding was appropriate.
On September 25 2011 02:31 infinity2k9 wrote:
On September 24 2011 18:53 Slakter wrote:
On September 24 2011 18:45 infinity2k9 wrote:
On September 24 2011 17:53 Slakter wrote:
On September 24 2011 16:54 Trozz wrote: Didn't expect this. Does there have to be a con? It's necessary?
There needs to be a union for progamers to look out for their best interests. Kespa failed at that pretty hard and SC2Con just didnt have any balls to do anything.
May just be the communist part of me talking however.
How do you figure this? Isn't having things like player drafts when a team disbands a positive thing.. the only thing you can argue that they do wrong in regards to players is how free agents work, but i'm pretty sure it's to help balance the teams out and stop all the top players being signed by a single team. If you are gonna argue 'omg they practice for so long' that's down to the teams themselves. But simply anyone who doesn't practice hard isn't even going to be a pro anyway in BW, you can't force a maximum practice time on people.
Its more the fact that the lower level pros dont get paid enough for their work IMO. If Progaming had a strong union that cared more about the players I bet there would be a lot more discussion internally about players salaries.
People keep bringing up the foreign scene and minor foreign tournaments as if we should care and they should even be involved in anything like this in the first place. Organization is needed for the top level of progaming, no one gives a shit about controlling the rest of it.
The global SC2 scene is strong, we don't need a strong-arm organisation trying to control everyone else, especially not if it's operating from one of the smaller countries involved. There's a lot more money in North America and Europe (I'm never sure if FXO is considered a SEA team or just "international" :D).
As I said before, some of the Korean executives that want total control over players and teams (to the detriments of the individual, I might add) are free to try and establish this like Kespa did in BW. But isolation will inevitably lead to decline in a global community like the SC2 scene.
This ain't BW, son.
Kespa is a board of teams/sponsors, ofc they control the league... they run and pay for most of the costs. If anything they ran it pretty fucking well since we're seeing BW on TV for 10 years strong, with wide range of viewers, while every other e-sport is delegated to teenage nerds watching it on an internet streams.
Kespa did not "kill" the foreigner scene. Foreigner scene just stopped being competitive. Lot of foreigners were present at the start and one epic Canadian even won an OSL. It's not Kespa's fault foreigners sucked at the game and couldn't compete at the highest level.
Are people really angry at Kespa doesn't give the poor foreigner pity air time despite being below most Korean B-teamers? Not giving shitty players air time means its serious and legitimate e-sport.
their lack of desire to help and explore leagues and stuff for international players, whether they are b-teamers or worse is what has lead to stagnation in the broodwar scene. kespa's completely internal view point is what will kill broodwar. maybe not today, maybe not this year, but if you dont care about growth the only way is down.
and we sit here now talking about how the korean scene needs western money in sc2, to help bring them into the international game so they can take part.
the same argument can be levied at BW, the lack of money in the foreign scene makes it very very hard to break into as a white guy. im not saying the koreans arent the best in the world, but baring having the greatest BW talent of all time, its impossible to bankroll a career in BW now to last you long enough to go pro.
this is the flaw with looking after the teams and sponsors above all else.
teams dont matter, teams will come and go. sponsors and players are what matter, that (imo) is kespas flaw
Kespa IS the sponsor of the team and they fund all of the teamhouses. They are also in charge of making BW legitimate so sponsors outside of just XXXTREME *insert computer hardware* is willing to sponsor tournaments for a videogame.
You think Korea Air/Shinan Bank/ABC mart is going to sponsor a tournament if an organization like Kespa did not exist?
They sponsor BW because they know:
A) Other major corporations are willing to fund teams/teamhouses (a much larger investment than just a single OSL/MSL) B) Pro-gamers are licensed with a set rule for their conduct (Not anyone can call themselves a progamer and stream themselves calling people "faggot ass noob" on streams or w/e) C) Tournaments are ran with professional conduct. They have strict guidelines of how they are ran and professional casters.
Guess who is responsible for all that structure? Do you see something like that ever happening in SC2 without an organization with actual power?
PS Kespa has been trying to expand internationally, except to China. Because BW scene in NA/EU was tiny and not all that good, compared to Korea. Its not their fault BW completely died out after 3-4 years outside Korea, thats literally how every game has been in NA. So to blame them for being sane and not pouring endless money in a hopeless market is just childish.
thats not what im saying at all
kespa on the whole is a good idea, i just dont like their korea vs the world view point, and their putting teams above players. i cant actually see a reason for the whole pro licsence system, surely all it does it make starting to play BW more of a risk for young players
^ the licensing system does make it harder to enter pro gaming. But that IS the point. Restricted entry = better returns / wages for players who do make it. The same principle works for CPA's, lawyers, cab drivers in areas with "medallions", etc.
On September 25 2011 12:45 citi.zen wrote: ^ the licensing system does make it harder to enter pro gaming. But that IS the point. Restricted entry = better returns / wages for players who do make it. The same principle works for CPA's, lawyers, cab drivers in areas with "medallions", etc.
ye, can only imagine the day where licensing is required to compete at an MLG. that would be the day.
On September 25 2011 06:38 windsupernova wrote: Seriously all htis KESPA hate is.. paranoid and moronic.
Did KESPA made some really stupid rules and decision?
Yes, definitively.
But without KESPA e sports wouldn´t be what it is now, they helped the scene a lot(and hindered it in some ways but thats not the point). And LOL @ KESPA killing BW outside of Korea, did they make everyone magically suck?
You're right, KESPA didn't cause the death of the Brood War scene, it was both the release of Starcraft 2, the lack of money in Brood War, the almost entirely dead support of Starcraft: Brood War from Blizzard (they removed ladder and archived much of the original battle.net site, and list an external ladder (WGTour) that no longer exists) and the suckiness of Brood War players that killed the international Brood War scene.
NonY (a.k.a. Liquid'Tyler) was the best Starcraft: Brood War player by far, winning the TSL2 over Mondragon and being the closest foreigner since Grrr around 9 years ago to win a Starleague. And by "win a Starleague", I mean he barely lost out on a progamer licence from a Courage tournament when he was knocked out in the last round.
The only foreigner who even matched NonY's skill was Androide, the man who most notably reached second place, probably the highest a non-Korean has ever placed in a World Cyber Games event, and lost only to fOru, taking down the likes of players like Silent_Control.
Neither NonY or Androide can even compete to the likes of other notable current and former Brood War players like Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, JangBi, Bisu, iloveoov, sAviOr, BoxeR, NaDa etc.
On September 25 2011 06:38 windsupernova wrote: Seriously all htis KESPA hate is.. paranoid and moronic.
Did KESPA made some really stupid rules and decision?
Yes, definitively.
But without KESPA e sports wouldn´t be what it is now, they helped the scene a lot(and hindered it in some ways but thats not the point). And LOL @ KESPA killing BW outside of Korea, did they make everyone magically suck?
You're right, KESPA didn't cause the death of the Brood War scene, it was both the release of Starcraft 2, the lack of money in Brood War, the almost entirely dead support of Starcraft: Brood War from Blizzard (they removed ladder and archived much of the original battle.net site, and list an external ladder (WGTour) that no longer exists) and the suckiness of Brood War players that killed the international Brood War scene.
NonY (a.k.a. Liquid'Tyler) was the best Starcraft: Brood War player by far, winning the TSL2 over Mondragon and being the closest foreigner since Grrr around 9 years ago to win a Starleague. And by "win a Starleague", I mean he barely lost out on a progamer licence from a Courage tournament when he was knocked out in the last round.
The only foreigner who even matched NonY's skill was Androide, the man who most notably reached second place, probably the highest a non-Korean has ever placed in a World Cyber Games event, and lost only to fOru, taking down the likes of players like Silent_Control.
Neither NonY or Androide can even compete to the likes of other notable current and former Brood War players like Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, JangBi, Bisu, iloveoov, sAviOr, BoxeR, NaDa etc.
I like how u act as if idra doesn't exist. He was far better then NoNy. dunno if this is a troll. I believe there was a foreigner who won a courage tourney..
On September 25 2011 06:38 windsupernova wrote: Seriously all htis KESPA hate is.. paranoid and moronic.
Did KESPA made some really stupid rules and decision?
Yes, definitively.
But without KESPA e sports wouldn´t be what it is now, they helped the scene a lot(and hindered it in some ways but thats not the point). And LOL @ KESPA killing BW outside of Korea, did they make everyone magically suck?
You're right, KESPA didn't cause the death of the Brood War scene, it was both the release of Starcraft 2, the lack of money in Brood War, the almost entirely dead support of Starcraft: Brood War from Blizzard (they removed ladder and archived much of the original battle.net site, and list an external ladder (WGTour) that no longer exists) and the suckiness of Brood War players that killed the international Brood War scene.
NonY (a.k.a. Liquid'Tyler) was the best Starcraft: Brood War player by far, winning the TSL2 over Mondragon and being the closest foreigner since Grrr around 9 years ago to win a Starleague. And by "win a Starleague", I mean he barely lost out on a progamer licence from a Courage tournament when he was knocked out in the last round.
The only foreigner who even matched NonY's skill was Androide, the man who most notably reached second place, probably the highest a non-Korean has ever placed in a World Cyber Games event, and lost only to fOru, taking down the likes of players like Silent_Control.
Neither NonY or Androide can even compete to the likes of other notable current and former Brood War players like Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, JangBi, Bisu, iloveoov, sAviOr, BoxeR, NaDa etc.
I like how u act as if idra doesn't exist. He was far better then NoNy. dunno if this is a troll. I believe there was a foreigner who won a courage tourney..
On September 25 2011 06:38 windsupernova wrote: Seriously all htis KESPA hate is.. paranoid and moronic.
Did KESPA made some really stupid rules and decision?
Yes, definitively.
But without KESPA e sports wouldn´t be what it is now, they helped the scene a lot(and hindered it in some ways but thats not the point). And LOL @ KESPA killing BW outside of Korea, did they make everyone magically suck?
You're right, KESPA didn't cause the death of the Brood War scene, it was both the release of Starcraft 2, the lack of money in Brood War, the almost entirely dead support of Starcraft: Brood War from Blizzard (they removed ladder and archived much of the original battle.net site, and list an external ladder (WGTour) that no longer exists) and the suckiness of Brood War players that killed the international Brood War scene.
NonY (a.k.a. Liquid'Tyler) was the best Starcraft: Brood War player by far, winning the TSL2 over Mondragon and being the closest foreigner since Grrr around 9 years ago to win a Starleague. And by "win a Starleague", I mean he barely lost out on a progamer licence from a Courage tournament when he was knocked out in the last round.
The only foreigner who even matched NonY's skill was Androide, the man who most notably reached second place, probably the highest a non-Korean has ever placed in a World Cyber Games event, and lost only to fOru, taking down the likes of players like Silent_Control.
Neither NonY or Androide can even compete to the likes of other notable current and former Brood War players like Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Fantasy, JangBi, Bisu, iloveoov, sAviOr, BoxeR, NaDa etc.
I like how u act as if idra doesn't exist. He was far better then NoNy. dunno if this is a troll. I believe there was a foreigner who won a courage tourney..
assem i believe won courage once
nony did beat idra in tsl2
Both were awesome BW players Idra got real good whilst at CJ and yeah nony beat idra in tsl.
Some of the KESPA hate in here in absurd. KESPA is the reason major companies sponsor Brood War, the reason it is on Television and the reason that ten years after it's release it's still the most lucrative esport in the world.
Although I don't agree with everything that Kespa and SC2con have done, I do recognize that there needs to be a body to govern the competitive starcraft 2 scene.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
It almost seems that all pro-level competition have some sort of governing organization to uphold a certain standard of professionalism. hmmm nope E-sport obviously don't need any of that, I'm sure sponsors are dying to pour money into a bottomless drama pit that is current E-sports.
(Edit: lmaooo there is a thread under this where some "pro" calls another "pro" a "stupid gook" hahaha)
Also, at Kespa mistreating the poor B-teamers, E-sport is niche and life of a pro-gamer (i mean real pro gamers not some dude streaming in his room) is fucking hard, but it has gotten a lot better than the days where Xellos needed to win a tourny to feed his teammates and OOV was happy to not pay PC-bangg fees to play bw. Guess who help make that happen?
Look at W3, it had no organization and yeah some players got paid well, but they also bankrupted their team and 90% played had no real salaries, until the chinese boom and even then its not stable as BW pros. Most Sc2 "pros" don't have salaries. Yet, no one is crying for them, because they don't have an easy target to point a finger at and yell at, like we do in BW.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
It almost seems that all pro-level competition have some sort of governing organization to uphold a certain standard of professionalism. hmmm nope E-sport obviously don't need any of that, I'm sure sponsors are dying to pour money into a bottomless drama pit that is current E-sports.
(Edit: lmaooo there is a thread under this where some "pro" calls another "pro" a "stupid gook" hahaha)
Also, at Kespa mistreating the poor B-teamers, E-sport is niche and life of a pro-gamer (i mean real pro gamers not some dude streaming in his room) is fucking hard, but it has gotten a lot better than the days where Xellos needed to win a tourny to feed his teammates and OOV was happy to not pay PC-bangg fees to play bw. Guess who help make that happen?
Look at W3, it had no organization and yeah some players got paid well, but they also bankrupted their team and 90% played had no real salaries, until the chinese boom and even then its not stable as BW pros. Most Sc2 "pros" don't have salaries. Yet, no one is crying for them, because they don't have an easy target to point a finger at and yell at, like we do in BW.
I just need to point out how much I agree with this post and how he makes a lot of valid points.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
It almost seems that all pro-level competition have some sort of governing organization to uphold a certain standard of professionalism. hmmm nope E-sport obviously don't need any of that, I'm sure sponsors are dying to pour money into a bottomless drama pit that is current E-sports.
(Edit: lmaooo there is a thread under this where some "pro" calls another "pro" a "stupid gook" hahaha)
Also, at Kespa mistreating the poor B-teamers, E-sport is niche and life of a pro-gamer (i mean real pro gamers not some dude streaming in his room) is fucking hard, but it has gotten a lot better than the days where Xellos needed to win a tourny to feed his teammates and OOV was happy to not pay PC-bangg fees to play bw. Guess who help make that happen?
Look at W3, it had no organization and yeah some players got paid well, but they also bankrupted their team and 90% played had no real salaries, until the chinese boom and even then its not stable as BW pros. Most Sc2 "pros" don't have salaries. Yet, no one is crying for them, because they don't have an easy target to point a finger at and yell at, like we do in BW.
I just need to point out how much I agree with this post and how he makes a lot of valid points.
I agree, but i didn't point out foreign input as a problem for Kespa-like organization becasue of foreign freedom of expression, etc etc, but because of Kespa being state-connected. The function and control of their foreign team enterprise by a organization that even though is only minimally linked to the state's ministry may feel sketchy. Many pre-conditions will required to be discussed, don't expect it to be exact same as BW Kespa where the teams and companies are on their knees sucking on KEspa-cock.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
It almost seems that all pro-level competition have some sort of governing organization to uphold a certain standard of professionalism. hmmm nope E-sport obviously don't need any of that, I'm sure sponsors are dying to pour money into a bottomless drama pit that is current E-sports.
(Edit: lmaooo there is a thread under this where some "pro" calls another "pro" a "stupid gook" hahaha)
Also, at Kespa mistreating the poor B-teamers, E-sport is niche and life of a pro-gamer (i mean real pro gamers not some dude streaming in his room) is fucking hard, but it has gotten a lot better than the days where Xellos needed to win a tourny to feed his teammates and OOV was happy to not pay PC-bangg fees to play bw. Guess who help make that happen?
Look at W3, it had no organization and yeah some players got paid well, but they also bankrupted their team and 90% played had no real salaries, until the chinese boom and even then its not stable as BW pros. Most Sc2 "pros" don't have salaries. Yet, no one is crying for them, because they don't have an easy target to point a finger at and yell at, like we do in BW.
I just need to point out how much I agree with this post and how he makes a lot of valid points.
I agree, but i didn't point out foreign input as a problem for Kespa-like organization becasue of foreign freedom of expression, etc etc, but because of Kespa being state-connected. The function and control of their foreign team enterprise by a organization that even though is only minimally linked to the state's ministry may feel sketchy. Many pre-conditions will required to be discussed, don't expect it to be exact same as BW Kespa where the teams and companies are on their knees sucking on KEspa-cock.
The sponsors don´t suck ¨KESPA-cock¨ if anything they are the ones behind the power of Kespa. But oh well I agree in that foreign teams will make things a little bit more complicated but oh well we can only hope for the best
Good. From what little interaction they had wit hteams, it seemed like they were super terrible at doing their jobs, and it seems like they're hte main reason we have few koreans in the nasl.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
It almost seems that all pro-level competition have some sort of governing organization to uphold a certain standard of professionalism. hmmm nope E-sport obviously don't need any of that, I'm sure sponsors are dying to pour money into a bottomless drama pit that is current E-sports.
(Edit: lmaooo there is a thread under this where some "pro" calls another "pro" a "stupid gook" hahaha)
Also, at Kespa mistreating the poor B-teamers, E-sport is niche and life of a pro-gamer (i mean real pro gamers not some dude streaming in his room) is fucking hard, but it has gotten a lot better than the days where Xellos needed to win a tourny to feed his teammates and OOV was happy to not pay PC-bangg fees to play bw. Guess who help make that happen?
Look at W3, it had no organization and yeah some players got paid well, but they also bankrupted their team and 90% played had no real salaries, until the chinese boom and even then its not stable as BW pros. Most Sc2 "pros" don't have salaries. Yet, no one is crying for them, because they don't have an easy target to point a finger at and yell at, like we do in BW.
I just need to point out how much I agree with this post and how he makes a lot of valid points.
I agree, but i didn't point out foreign input as a problem for Kespa-like organization becasue of foreign freedom of expression, etc etc, but because of Kespa being state-connected. The function and control of their foreign team enterprise by a organization that even though is only minimally linked to the state's ministry may feel sketchy. Many pre-conditions will required to be discussed, don't expect it to be exact same as BW Kespa where the teams and companies are on their knees sucking on KEspa-cock.
You know nothing about the BW scene and Kespa. Please stop spreading misinformation.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
Only WeMadeFox's BW division is part of KeSPA. It's actually the reason why Moon, Lyn, and Soccer (Fox's W3 team) were allowed to play sc2 while Fox's BW team were not.
Of course, given this development. Things will change soon.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
You're implying that Kespa did something for the WC3 Korean players? They didn't have any form of license for them.
FOX took Moon in because he was a super star on his own right. He had a remarkable market value in the WC3 scene, and the team obviously believed that he was worth the investment. I can't really see how Kespa is in anyway responsible for Moon's salary.
Moon was on MYM for three years. He was paid that figure. In fact his incredulous salary on MYM back then was partly the reason why players like Lyn, Remind and Soju decided to leave Team WE, because they felt that they were underpaid by a huge margin when they all believed that they were capable of competing with Moon.
Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
So what they're saying is, their draconian recommendations weren't strong enough, so they're going to make a ruling body that all teams must be forced to join so when they want to manipulate the tournament scene for the the profit of the cartels that own these teams and the Kpop slaves they will be forced to listen.
Gosh, I hope they don't start making player throw matches to fuel illegal gambling, again.
On September 27 2011 00:02 Scraps wrote: So what they're saying is, their draconian recommendations weren't strong enough, so they're going to make a ruling body that all teams must be forced to join so when they want to manipulate the tournament scene for the the profit of the cartels that own these teams and the Kpop slaves they will be forced to listen.
Gosh, I hope they don't start making player throw matches to fuel illegal gambling, again.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
Only WeMadeFox's BW division is part of KeSPA. It's actually the reason why Moon, Lyn, and Soccer (Fox's W3 team) were allowed to play sc2 while Fox's BW team were not.
Of course, given this development. Things will change soon.
Wrong. Another person who has no idea what Kespa is.
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
Could you quote every one of those 1000 times please?
Good, all I've been hearing about SC2Con are bad things. Hopefully another organisation can be formed to regulate the SC2 scene. Also hopefully they do it better this time.
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
Could you quote every one of those 1000 times please?
with quote from NASL themself: BoxeR already declined participation (his withdrawal came before the SC2Con decision, but for similar reasons)
Did I miss somewhere where this wasn't sc2cons decision after all?
try reading the whole thread and you'll find the answer. Just because the OP isn't correct it doesn't mean you are
Thanks for helping me out. I'll sit down and read the entire 179 pages on the thread now.
Seriously. If you don't have anything useful, don't answer. My question was sincere. If every team in sc2con decided to pull out, and nasl said it was sc2cons decision, it would be nice of anyone to actually confirm whetever or not that was the case. Not just throw out "you're wrong" or "read the thread".
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
Could you quote every one of those 1000 times please?
with quote from NASL themself: BoxeR already declined participation (his withdrawal came before the SC2Con decision, but for similar reasons)
Did I miss somewhere where this wasn't sc2cons decision after all?
try reading the whole thread and you'll find the answer. Just because the OP isn't correct it doesn't mean you are
Thanks for helping me out. I'll sit down and read the entire 179 pages on the thread now.
Seriously. If you don't have anything useful, don't answer. My question was sincere. If every team in sc2con decided to pull out, and nasl said it was sc2cons decision, it would be nice of anyone to actually confirm whetever or not that was the case. Not just throw out "you're wrong" or "read the thread".
Or you could read the first couple pages (gasp reading!) where it was answered and not grace us with your ignorance. It's not the job of others to baby feed you information, especially if you can't even be polite about it.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
You're implying that Kespa did something for the WC3 Korean players? They didn't have any form of license for them.
FOX took Moon in because he was a super star on his own right. He had a remarkable market value in the WC3 scene, and the team obviously believed that he was worth the investment. I can't really see how Kespa is in anyway responsible for Moon's salary.
Moon was on MYM for three years. He was paid that figure. In fact his incredulous salary on MYM back then was partly the reason why players like Lyn, Remind and Soju decided to leave Team WE, because they felt that they were underpaid by a huge margin when they all believed that they were capable of competing with Moon.
and when teh fuck did i say Kespa paid him?
watch all the whole quote. guy starts talking about if its possible 2 get 200k+ per year salary without such a big organisation. and then the other guy quotes him and talks about a player that is part of a team from the organisation?!?!?
i never said Kespa paid him. but WMF paid him who is/was part of Kespa.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
KESPA is very different from how those leagues are run, (at least the 1st 2, I don't know details of FIFA), your point makes no sense.
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
Could you quote every one of those 1000 times please?
with quote from NASL themself: BoxeR already declined participation (his withdrawal came before the SC2Con decision, but for similar reasons)
Did I miss somewhere where this wasn't sc2cons decision after all?
try reading the whole thread and you'll find the answer. Just because the OP isn't correct it doesn't mean you are
Thanks for helping me out. I'll sit down and read the entire 179 pages on the thread now.
Seriously. If you don't have anything useful, don't answer. My question was sincere. If every team in sc2con decided to pull out, and nasl said it was sc2cons decision, it would be nice of anyone to actually confirm whetever or not that was the case. Not just throw out "you're wrong" or "read the thread".
Or you could read the first couple pages (gasp reading!) where it was answered and not grace us with your ignorance. It's not the job of others to baby feed you information, especially if you can't even be polite about it.
SC2con was clearly involved in that decision. FXO had to negotiate with SC2con for FXOsc's participation (one of the major reasons FXO left SC2con shortly afterwards), team MVP members who wanted to play were not allowed to play because Mr.Chae and the team coaches (except SlayerS) came to the agreement that none of the Korean teams should participate.
So basically... the members of SC2con made a decision on behalf of the teams represented by SC2con concerning the Korean scene represented by SC2con... and then proceeded to say "SC2con had nothing to do with this" in official channels.
It's semantics. The same people involved, the same dynamics at work. And internally (in FXO's interaction with the others) it was referred to as SC2con.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
KESPA is very different from how those leagues are run, (at least the 1st 2, I don't know details of FIFA), your point makes no sense.
Oh, it does make sense, it just completely backfired on him.
The first two examples he mentions are perfect analogies to GOM/MLG/IEM and no one has anything against these tournament organisers.
His last analogy also fits, because FIFA is a governing body controlling the scene - much like Kespa - and it's a terrible organisation, completely corrupt (it's openly known that its most important members can be bought when decisions are made) and mostly concerned with filling their own pockets on other's people expense.
On September 26 2011 22:30 Excludos wrote: Never really heard much about the organization except for the bad stuff. NASL s2 comes to mind..and did they really discourage people from streaming? Yes, lets make sure people can't watch sc2 anywhere but large tournaments. Thats going to be ideal!
Of course, good news has a thing of not being highlighted. But from the very very little I've heard, it sounds like its just as good they disbanded.
as mentioned about 1000times on TL already: sc2con had nothing to do with nasl.
Could you quote every one of those 1000 times please?
with quote from NASL themself: BoxeR already declined participation (his withdrawal came before the SC2Con decision, but for similar reasons)
Did I miss somewhere where this wasn't sc2cons decision after all?
try reading the whole thread and you'll find the answer. Just because the OP isn't correct it doesn't mean you are
Thanks for helping me out. I'll sit down and read the entire 179 pages on the thread now.
Seriously. If you don't have anything useful, don't answer. My question was sincere. If every team in sc2con decided to pull out, and nasl said it was sc2cons decision, it would be nice of anyone to actually confirm whetever or not that was the case. Not just throw out "you're wrong" or "read the thread".
Or you could read the first couple pages (gasp reading!) where it was answered and not grace us with your ignorance. It's not the job of others to baby feed you information, especially if you can't even be polite about it.
SC2con was clearly involved in that decision. FXO had to negotiate with SC2con for FXOsc's participation (one of the major reasons FXO left SC2con shortly afterwards), team MVP members who wanted to play were not allowed to play because Mr.Chae and the team coaches (except SlayerS) came to the agreement that none of the Korean teams should participate.
So basically... the members of SC2con made a decision on behalf of the teams represented by SC2con concerning the Korean scene represented by SC2con... and then proceeded to say "SC2con had nothing to do with this" in official channels.
It's semantics. The same people involved, the same dynamics at work. And internally (in FXO's interaction with the others) it was referred to as SC2con.
On September 26 2011 04:58 MildSeven wrote: with the addition of foreign-korean hybrid teams, it will be difficult to establish a KESPA-like organization when foreign opinions are mixed in.
Because foreigners love freedom so much that they would never ever ... *looks at NFL/NHL/FIFA* oh...
KESPA is very different from how those leagues are run, (at least the 1st 2, I don't know details of FIFA), your point makes no sense.
Oh, it does make sense, it just completely backfired on him.
The first two examples he mentions are perfect analogies to GOM/MLG/IEM and no one has anything against these tournament organisers.
His last analogy also fits, because FIFA is a governing body controlling the scene - much like Kespa - and it's a terrible organisation, completely corrupt (it's openly known that its most important members can be bought when decisions are made) and mostly concerned with filling their own pockets on other's people expense.
GOM/MLG/IEM sends out invites and then sells tickets/HD passes/advertisement. They risk nothing compared to Kespa, who pay for the team infrastructure, pays player contracts and pays them a steady salary (compared to any other E-sport it is very stable). If anything the above 3 are more similar to many OSL/MSL sponsors, who just put up money for an event.
If GOM/MLG starts putting in some money beyond prize pools, then you can compare the two, till then they haven't put any real investment into E-sports like Kespa have (and no Gom's 2 bedroom apartment does not equal a training facility).
Also, the notion of corrupt Kespa boardmembers lining their pockets with E-SPORT DOLLAZZZ, is laughable at best and shows you have no clue about the Korean BW scene. Yes, the BW scene, that streams games for free, uploads VODs for free, and lets you watch live for free is simply rolling in da cash.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
You're implying that Kespa did something for the WC3 Korean players? They didn't have any form of license for them.
FOX took Moon in because he was a super star on his own right. He had a remarkable market value in the WC3 scene, and the team obviously believed that he was worth the investment. I can't really see how Kespa is in anyway responsible for Moon's salary.
Moon was on MYM for three years. He was paid that figure. In fact his incredulous salary on MYM back then was partly the reason why players like Lyn, Remind and Soju decided to leave Team WE, because they felt that they were underpaid by a huge margin when they all believed that they were capable of competing with Moon.
and when teh fuck did i say Kespa paid him?
watch all the whole quote. guy starts talking about if its possible 2 get 200k+ per year salary without such a big organisation. and then the other guy quotes him and talks about a player that is part of a team from the organisation?!?!?
i never said Kespa paid him. but WMF paid him who is/was part of Kespa.
but keep seeing stuff i never wrote
I'm saying that with or without Kespa, Moon will still receive the same salary if WMF thinks he is worth the money. Kespa is irrelevant to Moon's pay as a WC3 player. You're trying to establish a link that isn't there.
On September 26 2011 05:59 nalgene wrote: Is it possible to get a player who gets paid 200k+ per year before any winnings/advertisements included without that organization?
Moon had a $200k annual salary while he was on WeMadeFox. I believe he was earning $10K a month while he was on MYM. But then everyone back then was complaining about how MYM was spoiling the market anyway. I'm referring to the times when he was contracted for W3, of course.
Yup on WeMadeFox and we all know WeMadeFox was part of what? yes right Kespa.
and MYM went down right after the contracts so i doubt they paid him that.
Only WeMadeFox's BW division is part of KeSPA. It's actually the reason why Moon, Lyn, and Soccer (Fox's W3 team) were allowed to play sc2 while Fox's BW team were not.
Of course, given this development. Things will change soon.
Wrong. Another person who has no idea what Kespa is.
lol Ryo it's like stepping into a gunky swamp. Don't even get me started about the guy saying Kespa -> match fixing.
An international organisation is a necessary evil really. FIFA was brought up earlier but they do some good with player transfers and general disputes. Where they fall down is when they think they become bigger than the game or what is right (Bosman and all the WC bidding shenanigans). But without them it would be worse. Same for Esports we do need it, recent months have shown that and its no good trying to please everyone because thats impossible. You cant please all of the people all of the time just most of the people most of the time.
On September 27 2011 09:51 Bobster wrote: SC2con was clearly involved in that decision. FXO had to negotiate with SC2con for FXOsc's participation (one of the major reasons FXO left SC2con shortly afterwards), team MVP members who wanted to play were not allowed to play because Mr.Chae and the team coaches (except SlayerS) came to the agreement that none of the Korean teams should participate.
sC didn't want to play. FXOBoss said so himself. This had nothing to do with sc2con. Boss's issue was with SC2con putting a lot of demands on his team and also allegedly blackmailing and threatening Choya.
EPT
