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On September 23 2011 03:35 tyrless wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:19 R3N wrote:On September 23 2011 03:07 tyrless wrote:On September 23 2011 02:42 headbus wrote:
7 Zergs, 5 Protoss in GSL code S. That should be enough to convince people that terran is stronger. Anybody who is convinced by those most meaningless numbers is in fact ignorant and uneducated to basic statistical analysis. Which most of the whiners in this thread are, not to mention the terrible reading comprehension I'm seeing (there are actually people here bringing up the matchmaking system in their arguments). Sometimes I forget that there are just a lot of uneducated/inexperienced kids posting here. Sorry haters but Blizzard does in fact have people who are much smarter/more experienced than you who work fulltime on this. can bet my left nut on you're a terran lol. Seriously the code S race balance shouldn't be the only important stat (well it actually isn't a stat  , but still it says something!) but it's definitely not useless. It's been going on for months now and this is just the result of it. Also you could present your ideas on how these numbers are void, I'd like to hear it. I hope you weren't attached to your left nut because you just lost it  Should probably take the other nut too for even suggesting that what race I play is relevant to the facts. As for methodology for interpreting GSL stats in the context of game balance, it's not really my job to educate you of basic statistics, your local community college can probably help with that.
wow such arrogance...
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On September 23 2011 03:43 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:40 polysciguy wrote:
If people don't like comparing to GAL how about looking at other prominent tourneys. What were the racial distributions of the last couple MLG finals? What about the most recent dreamhack? The problem is the unevenness of the skill levels. If NesTea beats Goody, does that tell you anything about balance? GSL, on the other hand, has the highest skill levels, tapering off in the "diminishing returns" part of skill, where the differences are a lot more compressed. @usethis2:You raise some valid criticisms, and those are indeed limitations of looking at GSL. Nonetheless, it's the closest we've got to controlling the "skill" variable.
True but if the top 8 are all korean terrains and the highest protoss is 20thDESIGNED then that should show that there is something going on
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On September 23 2011 03:42 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:38 Huragius wrote:On September 23 2011 03:34 QTIP. wrote:On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b And how would you go about reliably proving that? If there is an inherent imbalance in the Protoss race can we agree that their play would also tend to "suck shit" as you so elegantly put it? Proving ? Inca vs Nestea finals and such ? There are boat loads of reliable proofs in GSL, all you need to do is to watch the games and not to blindly follow statistics. maybe nestea is better than inca...
Haha pretty much. I think NesTea right now is pretty much better than almost any other SC2 player alive. Perhaps MVP is on his level right now but that dude is unstoppable.
On a not related to the topic, I feel like I'm unfairly weighing these stats lol. I play Zerg and my win rate vs Terran over the last month is like 2 - 30. Obviously DRG and NesTea over there in Korea have some secret figured out haha.
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@ willz :
you make it sound like the trend we have seen is less terrans in gsl code S.
This is wrong. The trend is more and more terrans.
Another point is that gsl maps are less terran favoured than blizzard maps.
The only pro-balance faxt here is that 1.4 did indeed nerf terran and buff the other races.
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On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b
So good Koreans just pick Terran?
What kind logic is that?
Even if it's true and the game is perfectly balanced among people of similar skill level but better people pick Terran then the game is still fucked because one race is favored by the players.
Doesn't matter why they picked it (more options, more versatile, better music etc.) then Blizz fucked up by making one race really desirable in a game with only three races.
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On September 23 2011 03:34 QTIP. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b And how would you go about reliably proving that? If there is an inherent imbalance in the Protoss race can we agree that their play would also tend to "suck shit" as you so elegantly put it?
There's racial imbalance that's hard to see sometimes, and then there's players just straight up sucking.
I'll name two different PvZ games and hopefully you know what happened. Game 1 = HuK vs Coca at MLG Raleigh Tal'darim Altar. Game 2 Hero vs Idra at DH Valencia on Metalopolis. Can you look at either of those games objectively and draw a conclusion relating that one race is imbalanced versus the other.
In summary of those games if you haven't seen them, G1 Huk was completely blind and had 0 intel on what Coca was doing, and was trying to be greedy getting a fast 3rd until Coca rushed him with ling/infested terrans/infestors and smashed him. G2 Idra was at multiple points ahead of Hero, but fell apart due to Hero's harassment and multi-tasking.
If we are trying to be objectively honest in terms of balance as much as possible, how could you use any of those two games as indicating which race is either ahead or imbalanced? There are extremely logical and visible reasons why the players/races lost the way they did. Are you going to scream imbalance/ P is UP / Z is OP, or are you going to see that it is quite hard to balance a game even at pro levels if people are just playing poorly. What games then do we use as an example of imbalance, or showing trends of imbalance, if we keep seeing games where players, not the races, make mistakes.
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On September 23 2011 03:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b I'll give you a stick, and I'll drive an M2 Bradley. Then I'll say you did poorly not because you had a stick against an IFV, but because you're not skilled.
Exactly. You ride a bicycle and I'll ride a motorbike. I beat you in a race. You are less skilled, and compared to me, "you suck shit."
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Zerg has worst win/loss at highest levels
#surprise
#jk
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On September 23 2011 03:49 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:34 QTIP. wrote:On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b And how would you go about reliably proving that? If there is an inherent imbalance in the Protoss race can we agree that their play would also tend to "suck shit" as you so elegantly put it? There's racial imbalance that's hard to see sometimes, and then there's players just straight up sucking. I'll name two different PvZ games and hopefully you know what happened. Game 1 = HuK vs Coca at MLG Raleigh Tal'darim Altar. Game 2 Hero vs Idra at DH Valencia on Metalopolis. Can you look at either of those games objectively and draw a conclusion relating that one race is imbalanced versus the other.
Good references. I saw both of those games and both showed some of the nasty potential that each race is capable of.
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
Seems like a damage limitation attempt to me.
Why do we need figures with huge amounts of variables - we watch GSL? They use a far smaller sample of equally matched players on more balanced maps.
No set of numbers is going to convince me that there is not a MAJOR imbalance that is ruining the game.
This is pretty weak imo
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Seems like Blizzard has a big ass algorithm that takes the match making system out of these stats.
Didn't know that :o.
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On September 23 2011 02:22 Liquid`Tyler wrote:
I'm kind of interested why Blizzard wants us to know this. As far as I know, there's no pressure on them to release these numbers. No one is waiting on them. And no one in the community is going to use them for anything. Blizzard simply wants us to know them... why?
Isn't it obvious? PR and damage control. GSL is Blizzard's flagship tournament. There's been an outcry recently about imbalance, with 20 Terrans in Code S. Even Tastosis are beginning every cast saying things like "we have a lot of TvT today, but what can you do? We have 1 Zerg too, so it's not so bad..." etc.
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Whats the time lapse for these %? (like, when did they start counting?)
Also, lol at korean zergs being so much better at ZvP than the rest of the world
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Yes these numbers surely cannot be taken at face value, although there are some things you can take from them.
Many people have pointed out that the ladder automatically makes everyone's ratio in the 50% region due to MMR. This is true however this is irrespective of which races are played, so for example Protoss has a 53% win record PvT but this is balanced in the MMR by it's 47% record PvZ. In this case you can suggest imbalances depending on your statistical significance tolerance (which seem arbitrary by Blizzard in this article).
In Europe PvT is 54% and PvZ is 48%, totalling 102%. This to me can only be explained by the fact that there must be more PvZ matches being played than PvT.
Of course in Masters league and above the skill ceiling is unlimited so MMR doen't affect the stats once you actually get in that league. This however doesn't take into account how many people of each race got into the top division. In my opinion the total numbers of players of each race in Masters+ is a better indication of balance than the results within this division.
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On the GSL's heavy T presence:
Terran's obvious imbalance and Blizzard's lack of action is killing what could become a beautiful game and E-sport. Polt Prime has spoken recently that he believes Terran players are getting wins they shouldn't be getting if the game were balanced.
Terrancraft won't keep me watching.
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On September 23 2011 01:55 Brotocol wrote:
PS. A common misconception of "balance for the highest levels" is that imbalance doesn't affect lower leagues. It affects any game with equal skill level players, where one has to work harder than the other to achieve the same result.
The entire "balance only affects the highest leagues" is wrong. It affects high leagues consistently, but can also happen, albeit inconsistently, at lower leagues.
The balance problems for lower leagues are in many cases different than at a high level.
For one thing, you can always try to get high level yourself (though many simply don't have the time to do that).
Secondly, lower levels players might not be able to play well enough for "high level op" strats to make an impact. Or they can't defend well enough for a strat that is balanced at high level.
In any case, Blizzard should definitely focus on high level balance primarily, but I don't think they should completely ignore the effects on lower skilled players. They paid for the game, too, you know.
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On September 23 2011 03:49 willz22912 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 03:34 QTIP. wrote:On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b And how would you go about reliably proving that? If there is an inherent imbalance in the Protoss race can we agree that their play would also tend to "suck shit" as you so elegantly put it? There's racial imbalance that's hard to see sometimes, and then there's players just straight up sucking. I'll name two different PvZ games and hopefully you know what happened. Game 1 = HuK vs Coca at MLG Raleigh Tal'darim Altar. Game 2 Hero vs Idra at DH Valencia on Metalopolis. Can you look at either of those games objectively and draw a conclusion relating that one race is imbalanced versus the other. In summary of those games if you haven't seen them, G1 Huk was completely blind and had 0 intel on what Coca was doing, and was trying to be greedy getting a fast 3rd until Coca rushed him with ling/infested terrans/infestors and smashed him. G2 Idra was at multiple points ahead of Hero, but fell apart due to Hero's harassment and multi-tasking. If we are trying to be objectively honest in terms of balance as much as possible, how could you use any of those two games as indicating which race is either ahead or imbalanced? There are extremely logical and visible reasons why the players/races lost the way they did. Are you going to scream imbalance/ P is UP / Z is OP, or are you going to see that it is quite hard to balance a game even at pro levels if people are just playing poorly. What games then do we use as an example of imbalance, or showing trends of imbalance, if we keep seeing games where players, not the races, make mistakes.
Very very VERY yes. So many people blindy whine about imbalance based on matches between PLAYERS. Its not Zerg vs Protoss, its Huk vs Coca.. Since the players do not share 100% equal skill (plus even more variables that you need to factor in) you can not fairly compare the races on a balance perspective alone. It is much more complicated than that.
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
I would love to see the GSL results for August and Septmeber percentages compared to these stats...anyone?
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Until blizzard is actually transparent about how they measure these adjusted win percentages, the data are completely meaningless.
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On September 23 2011 04:02 Nourek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 01:55 Brotocol wrote:
PS. A common misconception of "balance for the highest levels" is that imbalance doesn't affect lower leagues. It affects any game with equal skill level players, where one has to work harder than the other to achieve the same result.
The entire "balance only affects the highest leagues" is wrong. It affects high leagues consistently, but can also happen, albeit inconsistently, at lower leagues. The balance problems for lower leagues are in many cases different than at a high level. For one thing, you can always try to get high level yourself (though many simply don't have the time to do that). Secondly, lower levels players might not be able to play well enough for "high level op" strats to make an impact. Or they can't defend well enough for a strat that is balanced at high level. In any case, Blizzard should definitely focus on high level balance primarily, but I don't think they should completely ignore the effects on lower skilled players. They paid for the game, too, you know.
I elaborated on it further already, a few pages back (as well as on page 1) fyi. My mistake was saying "scale down." It suggests consistent scaling. I should have said it differently!
My entire point was not that Blizz should balance for low levels. Simply, people who say "I'm only in Diamond, so I'm not affected by imbalance" are wrong. Balance can affect anyone.
But yes, definitely, the highest level should be the target for balance.
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EPT
