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Blizzard Blog: Balance Snapshot - Page 13

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Sackings
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada457 Posts
September 22 2011 19:22 GMT
#241
considering ladder maps are complete shit (and hugely favor terran), cant really take anything from these stats
naniwa fighting!!!
Arcanefrost
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium1257 Posts
September 22 2011 19:23 GMT
#242
These stats mean nothing, if you really want a good view on balance you need to look at the macrogames only, because for example things like 111 really don't affect pvt in general and give a false result.

57% pvz seems weird, I thought I wasn't the only one who lost nearly everything since the fungal changes.
Valor is a poor substitute for numbers.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:33:16
September 22 2011 19:24 GMT
#243
On September 23 2011 04:15 willz22912 wrote:

GSL August 9 Protoss - 15 Terran - 8 Zerg
GSL January 9 Protoss - 14 Terran - 9 Zerg
GSL Super Tournament 16 Protoss - 29 Terran - 19 Zerg out of 64 players

there have always been slightly higher T numbers than the other two races, but by not that significant until GSL October.


Did you just gloss over those three (3/9) examples? As a matter of fact... the only time Terran ISN'T the most numerous race in GSL it has been slightly beaten by Zerg. You could claim that this indicates Zerg being OP except they always follow that up with being the least represented race the next month.

Anyway, the fact that Terran is by far the most numerous race in the GSL this season isn't the issue.

It's the fact that they are ALWAYS the most numerous race (with few, brief exceptions) and the margin that they lead by is growing.

THAT is the issue...
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
NotSorry
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States6722 Posts
September 22 2011 19:24 GMT
#244
Now if only blizzard would release some numbers that mean something.
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell
DeepBlu2
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
United States975 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:26:40
September 22 2011 19:26 GMT
#245
This is really amazing, since tournament results showed something significantly different, that zerg was doing better vs protoss and terran... It seems to be the very opposite... I can't make any judgement on 1.4 yet since I haven't played with it much yet, but I think they should have waited a while until they nerfed infestors... I think the Neural nerf was too much.

It's definitely important though, to not take these too serious, however. Alot of the games may just be 1/1/1, 11/11, etc... I'll be playing more BW until it gets more stable.
u gotta sk8
gideel
Profile Joined January 2011
1503 Posts
September 22 2011 19:27 GMT
#246
the only relevant info here is the GM + masters for KR

the first table with all leagues gives you zero information about what the current situation is since none of these players play at a high level... unless blizz wants to fix "balance" for the lower tiers which i dont think is their main objective.. the stats there are irrelevant

i dont want to bash but grouping masters & GM for US/EU is a complete joke.. im a masters NA myself and i can say that most masters especially in the lower and even higher echelon are full of really bad players

would have been more sensible to just post GM win rates to be honest...
KWest
Profile Joined September 2010
United States59 Posts
September 22 2011 19:28 GMT
#247
The ladder is designed for people to get a 50/50 record and they use this to determine balance? The map pool is also very weak and can influence the statistics negatively. I don't feel confident with this approach by blizzard.
Little-Chimp
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada949 Posts
September 22 2011 19:30 GMT
#248
Wow, I really gotta see what these korean zergs are up to.
Tommie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
China658 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:33:45
September 22 2011 19:30 GMT
#249
On September 23 2011 04:23 Arcanefrost wrote:
These stats mean nothing, if you really want a good view on balance you need to look at the macrogames only, because for example things like 111 really don't affect pvt in general and give a false result.

57% pvz seems weird, I thought I wasn't the only one who lost nearly everything since the fungal changes.

LOL. Most stupid post ever. If you want a good view on balance you need to take all one bases and cheeses into account as well. Lets say there are two races and in mid-lategame 3base vs 3base it is an even battle. Now one of them has a very strong all in that requires a very specific opening and one of them doesn't. Which one is going to go in the midgame with an advantage? .



These stats are really funny. Look at the number of korean grandmaster terrans, not at the winrates. Only the best Z and P manage to stay up there, amongst a legion terrans. The ladder system will always get the winrates back to 50 percent, unless the imbalance is extreme. Only at the top of the ranks will imbalances appear, not in the win percentages but in the number of P, Z and T.
Edit: offcourse only GM league matters. US and Eu Master leaguers are not of such skill that their results can tell us anything about the game.

Lets just wait and see what 1.4 brings.
Being a ho doesn't automatically make you "immoral" or a bad person, but it does make you a ho.
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
September 22 2011 19:30 GMT
#250
I also want to throw my hat in the "lol - only 57% win rate for PvZ, let's nerf the infestor!" boat.

Blizz is definitely following these numbers and making changes accordingly.
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Papulatus
Profile Joined July 2010
United States669 Posts
September 22 2011 19:32 GMT
#251
Rofl. This comes as no surprise. Everyone who thought zerg was crazy op just isnt smart.
4 Corners in a day.
NotSorry
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States6722 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:33:57
September 22 2011 19:33 GMT
#252
All comes back to the argument of should the game be balance at the top end or mid range skill levels.
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
September 22 2011 19:34 GMT
#253
i wonder what Koreans do in ZvP, i lose like almost every "normal" game. And every game when i try to do some of the Korean builds i lose, like 100%
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:39:25
September 22 2011 19:34 GMT
#254
On September 23 2011 03:35 willz22912 wrote:
I'd just like to chime in for everyone who is trying to use GSL as a sort of balance discussion topic. While GSL is generally accepted as the highest level SC2 tournament in the world, with the best players, it can't be used exclusively on it's own without support as some unquestionable fact.

The fact is that people seem to forget that the GSL is in itself not perfect as a tournament or as a structure. Do we not all forget the open seasons and the difference it is in terms of skill level today, it took a long time for certain "average" players who everyone didn't think belonged in code S to fall down with the up/down format.

Remember how the ro32 is set up for both Code A and S. Before in Code S, the bottom two in groups were always sent into the up and downs with 1 person from code A coming up, with the top 2 of those 3 players making it back into Code S. Now the turnover is better for code A -> S but still the same for Code S. There is still only 8 people out of a 32 man tournament that could potentially lose Code S every season. Then there's code A Ro32 which is just a bo3 and if you lose you are knocked into code B which everyone knows is insanely difficulty to get back into code A.

My final point regarding the GSL is the group structure in ro32 code S. While people cannot handle multiple bo3s because of time constraints, this leaves us with the much worse outcome in terms of player potential, 2 bo1s and a 3rd potentially for a tiebreaker. Will you not agree that a single bo1 is not enough of a factor to determine who is the better player? Nerves aside in a tournament setting, this also increases the chances of cheese being seen in people's strategies since it's only a bo1 and if you cheese well, you generally have a high chance of just straight up winning which is why cheese is so popular. And I think most people would generally agree that a cheese game is 1) not fun for viewers, 2) not indicative of a players true skill. Remember IMmvp in GSL March? He got baneling busted twice in a row by July in an "upset" and fell to up and downs, and then lost in up and downs to two protosses and fell into code A. Now look at him, 3 time GSL champion with another high chance of winning a 4th title. Do people not slump and do weird results happen in the group stages. Yes and yes. Don't keep using GSL as a stand alone #s game since even out of 20 Terrans, at most 8 can go into up and downs every season, so getting the GSL to be racially balanced will take a long time regardless of game balance because of the tournament format.



This makes absolutely no sense and here's why. If everything were as random as you say, ie Bo1s not a good indicator of who is better, by skill or by power of having picked the right race, all races would fare equally well. It's random after all, a matter of chance. How is it that Terran always seems to get lucky? Why has Terran representation in the GSL consistently gone higher and higher every season?
willz22912
Profile Joined November 2010
United States255 Posts
September 22 2011 19:36 GMT
#255
On September 23 2011 04:24 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 04:15 willz22912 wrote:

GSL August 9 Protoss - 15 Terran - 8 Zerg
GSL January 9 Protoss - 14 Terran - 9 Zerg
GSL Super Tournament 16 Protoss - 29 Terran - 19 Zerg out of 64 players

there have always been slightly higher T numbers than the other two races, but by not that significant until GSL October.


Did you just gloss over those three examples? As a matter of fact... the only time Terran ISN'T the most numerous race in GSL it has been slightly beaten by Zerg. You could claim that this indicates Zerg being OP except they always follow that up with being the least represented race the next month.

Anyway, the fact that Terran is by far the most numerous race in the GSL this season isn't the issue.

It's the fact that they are ALWAYS the most numerous race (with few, brief exceptions) and the margin that they lead by is growing.

THAT is the issue...


Yes that is the issue. The point I again, was trying to make was that GSL itself is flawed because of it's turnover rate. Do you really expect 20 Terrans to not stay 20 Terrans for a very long time, since like I stated, only 8 out of 32 people can drop out of Code S every tournament. That is not enough turnover.

From the very beginning GSL has had more Terran, is that exclusively due to race imbalance or just more people/better people playing Terran? As a side note, Terran is also good at holding off cheeses the best. GSL Code S Ro32 is 2 bo1s. It is easy for Terran to either 1) cheese their opponent 2) hold off the opponent's cheese and win the bo1. You only need go 2-0 or 2-1 in your group to advance. (2 or 3 games) Is it the tournament's fault for the format, the player's fault for resorting to cheese, the game's fault for having bad balance, that is causing these results. It is not simply one of the above by itself.

Also I wouldn't really use GSL Super Tournament since it's a 64 man tournament inviting anyone with enough GSL points from the previous seasons, Code A/S combined to participate. I was just scrolling down Liquipedia and copying the results. You'll notice I used mostly Code S tournaments.
Namu
Profile Joined February 2011
United States826 Posts
September 22 2011 19:36 GMT
#256
On September 23 2011 04:34 sitromit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 03:35 willz22912 wrote:
I'd just like to chime in for everyone who is trying to use GSL as a sort of balance discussion topic. While GSL is generally accepted as the highest level SC2 tournament in the world, with the best players, it can't be used exclusively on it's own without support as some unquestionable fact.

The fact is that people seem to forget that the GSL is in itself not perfect as a tournament or as a structure. Do we not all forget the open seasons and the difference it is in terms of skill level today, it took a long time for certain "average" players who everyone didn't think belonged in code S to fall down with the up/down format.

Remember how the ro32 is set up for both Code A and S. Before in Code S, the bottom two in groups were always sent into the up and downs with 1 person from code A coming up, with the top 2 of those 3 players making it back into Code S. Now the turnover is better for code A -> S but still the same for Code S. There is still only 8 people out of a 32 man tournament that could potentially lose Code S every season. Then there's code A Ro32 which is just a bo3 and if you lose you are knocked into code B which everyone knows is insanely difficulty to get back into code A.

My final point regarding the GSL is the group structure in ro32 code S. While people cannot handle multiple bo3s because of time constraints, this leaves us with the much worse outcome in terms of player potential, 2 bo1s and a 3rd potentially for a tiebreaker. Will you not agree that a single bo1 is not enough of a factor to determine who is the better player? Nerves aside in a tournament setting, this also increases the chances of cheese being seen in people's strategies since it's only a bo1 and if you cheese well, you generally have a high chance of just straight up winning which is why cheese is so popular. And I think most people would generally agree that a cheese game is 1) not fun for viewers, 2) not indicative of a players true skill. Remember IMmvp in GSL March? He got baneling busted twice in a row by July in an "upset" and fell to up and downs, and then lost in up and downs to two protosses and fell into code A. Now look at him, 3 time GSL champion with another high chance of winning a 4th title. Do people not slump and do weird results happen in the group stages. Yes and yes. Don't keep using GSL as a stand alone #s game since even out of 20 Terrans, at most 8 can go into up and downs every season, so getting the GSL to be racially balanced will take a long time regardless of game balance because of the tournament format.



This makes absolutely no sense and here's why. If everything were as random as you say, ie Bo1s not a good indicator who is better, by skill or by power of having picked the right race, all races would fare equally well. It's random after all, a matter of chance. How is it that Terran always seems to get lucky? Why has Terran representation in the GSL consistently gone higher and higher every season?


No, what he is saying is that even if the game becomes balanced now after 1.4 or subsequent patches, it will take more than one season, probably like 3 for the terran number to go down to the appropriate ammount. He's saying that the number of races in GSL will lag behind the actual current balance.
NotSorry
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States6722 Posts
September 22 2011 19:39 GMT
#257
Including all of Masters with GM is just way to large of a skill gap to have any real relevance
We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. - Orwell
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:45:48
September 22 2011 19:39 GMT
#258
On September 23 2011 04:08 Huragius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 03:49 QTIP. wrote:
On September 23 2011 03:45 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 23 2011 03:33 Huragius wrote:
On September 23 2011 03:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Korea results ONLY matter. Look at TvP Korea... haha unbalanced there X_X


With all the respect to the koreans protoss (compared to korean Terrans)- they suck shit. Honestly, you have to be very ignorant not to admit that. Most of the GSL games from Protoss looks really sad compared to Terrans/Zergs. And If Korea results are the only ones who matter, then the problem isn't protoss. It's their players.b

I'll give you a stick, and I'll drive an M2 Bradley. Then I'll say you did poorly not because you had a stick against an IFV, but because you're not skilled.


Exactly. You ride a bicycle and I'll ride a motorbike. I beat you in a race. You are less skilled, and compared to me, "you suck shit."


A Terran with a bicycle would beat a protoss with a motorbike in a race. Just say'in.

And honestly, I'm not going to argue with constant LR thread whiners.Overall at current state of TL talking about balance is waste of time sadly I couldn't resist it this time. And if you think that Sage/MC/Hero is as good as MVP/Bomber/Polt or Nestea/DRG/Losira, then it is your problem that you are living in an illusionary world.


Way to run and hide from any meaningful discussion. First you make a terrible joke regarding alien races riding motor bikes, then you label me a LR thread whiner. One is off topic, and the other is assumptive and incorrect. Good job.

How about if I were to say:

"And honestly (as you like to put it) I'm not going to argue with blind Terran fanboys like yourself who QQ about KA." (You see how retarded and assumptive this is?)

I'll just ignore the fact that to back up your argument about Protoss players being "less skilled" relative to Terrans, you pointed to Inca vs Nestea. A PvZ for fucks sake. This is of course where as you say if you "watched the games" instead of "blindly looking at statistics" you would realize that Nestea is probably 100 times the SC2 player that Inca.

Are MC / Alicia / Tester so much worse than MVP / Bomber / Polt that all 3 should be eliminated from the GSL entirely?

That's not an illusionary world buddy - that's the world we live in.
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
sitromit
Profile Joined June 2011
7051 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-22 19:42:39
September 22 2011 19:42 GMT
#259
On September 23 2011 04:36 Namu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 04:34 sitromit wrote:
On September 23 2011 03:35 willz22912 wrote:
I'd just like to chime in for everyone who is trying to use GSL as a sort of balance discussion topic. While GSL is generally accepted as the highest level SC2 tournament in the world, with the best players, it can't be used exclusively on it's own without support as some unquestionable fact.

The fact is that people seem to forget that the GSL is in itself not perfect as a tournament or as a structure. Do we not all forget the open seasons and the difference it is in terms of skill level today, it took a long time for certain "average" players who everyone didn't think belonged in code S to fall down with the up/down format.

Remember how the ro32 is set up for both Code A and S. Before in Code S, the bottom two in groups were always sent into the up and downs with 1 person from code A coming up, with the top 2 of those 3 players making it back into Code S. Now the turnover is better for code A -> S but still the same for Code S. There is still only 8 people out of a 32 man tournament that could potentially lose Code S every season. Then there's code A Ro32 which is just a bo3 and if you lose you are knocked into code B which everyone knows is insanely difficulty to get back into code A.

My final point regarding the GSL is the group structure in ro32 code S. While people cannot handle multiple bo3s because of time constraints, this leaves us with the much worse outcome in terms of player potential, 2 bo1s and a 3rd potentially for a tiebreaker. Will you not agree that a single bo1 is not enough of a factor to determine who is the better player? Nerves aside in a tournament setting, this also increases the chances of cheese being seen in people's strategies since it's only a bo1 and if you cheese well, you generally have a high chance of just straight up winning which is why cheese is so popular. And I think most people would generally agree that a cheese game is 1) not fun for viewers, 2) not indicative of a players true skill. Remember IMmvp in GSL March? He got baneling busted twice in a row by July in an "upset" and fell to up and downs, and then lost in up and downs to two protosses and fell into code A. Now look at him, 3 time GSL champion with another high chance of winning a 4th title. Do people not slump and do weird results happen in the group stages. Yes and yes. Don't keep using GSL as a stand alone #s game since even out of 20 Terrans, at most 8 can go into up and downs every season, so getting the GSL to be racially balanced will take a long time regardless of game balance because of the tournament format.



This makes absolutely no sense and here's why. If everything were as random as you say, ie Bo1s not a good indicator who is better, by skill or by power of having picked the right race, all races would fare equally well. It's random after all, a matter of chance. How is it that Terran always seems to get lucky? Why has Terran representation in the GSL consistently gone higher and higher every season?


No, what he is saying is that even if the game becomes balanced now after 1.4 or subsequent patches, it will take more than one season, probably like 3 for the terran number to go down to the appropriate ammount. He's saying that the number of races in GSL will lag behind the actual current balance.


We already know that. But there's nothing in the balance changes that actually significantly effects Terran. So we're stuck with this situation for the foreseeable future, and for a good while afterwards, even if Terran eventually gets balanced.
ExO_
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States2316 Posts
September 22 2011 19:42 GMT
#260
T win percentages explained!!

[image loading]

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TLPD

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10. Elazer
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3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
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