EPTBlizzard Blog: Balance Snapshot - Page 14
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
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Sackings
Canada457 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:48 Heavenly wrote: Did Blizzard really just group me along with players like Kiwikaki in regards to balance for NA? Lol? And attempt to place numbers about Z balance in a map pool where close positions still exist? just imagine if the GSL used ladder maps lol, it would be 32/32 terran | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
1 terran 2-3 zerg 4-5 terran 6-7 protoss 8-9 terran 10 protoss, 11 terran 12 protoss 13-14 terran 15 zerg 16 terran 17 protoss 18-20 zerg -----for a total count of 9 terran 5 protoss and 6 zerg in the top 20 top 20 mlg anaheim: 1-4 terran 5 zerg 6 terran 7-8 protoss 9 zerg 10 terran 11-13 zerg 14-15 protoss 16 zerg 17-19 terran 20 protoss-----for a total count of 9 terran 5 protoss 6 zerg interestingly the total count stays the same with terran doubling every other race nearly, the only difference is the order in which the races finish. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:34 Geo.Rion wrote: i wonder what Koreans do in ZvP, i lose like almost every "normal" game. And every game when i try to do some of the Korean builds i lose, like 100% It does sound like Zerg win percentage gets a huge drop in the mid skill levels (US/EU Masters and GM) when the early Zerg rushes are not as effective anymore. But their win percentage goes back up in the Korean Masters and GM level where players are better at managing their larva and that crucial balance between economy and unit production. PvT, on the other hand, is just a straight up drop the more skilled the players become. | ||
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Stanlot
United States5742 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:54 Stanlot wrote: But who wins more in mirror match ups!? The Korean | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
There is something called player skill, which ranges between 80 and 120. The chance of a player winning a match is player1skill/(player1skill+player2skill). Now there is a big bias toward T such that for terran the formula becomes something like player1skill/(player1skill+player2skill)*some number greater than 1. There is an infinite bath of Z and P and T sitting below. What is going to happen? Well, T is gonna have quite a high winrate until the P and Z get demoted into the infinite bath. Until your 150 player league reaches equlibrium. Then the number of Z and P who make their way into the league will be as high as the number who drop out. Winrates will then approach 50 percent for all races. The number of T, however will be large. I just explained korean GM league and GSL code A/S for you guys. To say something about balance you can't look at the numbers but you need to think about them as well. Even better: you can look at the actual game. Which player needs to be afraid? Which player has better scouting options? Which player has the initiative? Which player has the most options? To me it seems blatantly obvious which race is the strongest, just by tech tree design, scouting, mobility and sturdiness but it doesn't bother me from enjoying the game. Edit: almost forgot the single most important thing when discussing balance. MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS MAPS | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
These are the numbers I got from sc2 ranks about 15 minutes ago. Top 200 NA = 37.5% Terran / 33.5% Zerg / 28% Protoss / 1% Random Top 200 Korea = 39% Terran / 25% Zerg / 35% Protoss / 1% Random Top 200 Europe = 36% Terran / 33% Zerg / 31% Protoss / (no randoms) Here are some sexy pie charts + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/z1gFi.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/a0eYa.png) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VC8Gs.png) The thing we really need to be asking about balance is why are the random players performing so poorly in Europe. There are 100% more in Korea and NA  | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:42 sitromit wrote: We already know that. But there's nothing in the balance changes that actually significantly effects Terran. So we're stuck with this situation for the foreseeable future, and for a good while afterwards, even if Terran eventually gets balanced. Blue flame hellion and Barrack build time weren't significant nerfs? GSL is still playing with the old patch, let's wait and see before we complain that nothing changed for Terran. If you want to see the balance shifting, you have to look at Code A, and of the qualifiers, only 2 were Terran who faced a TvT to get in. Code A is much more diverse overall as well. While, as stated before Code S is set up to keep people in it (Artosis mentioned that having consistent players in Code S lets Gom give them a surrogate salary). I think you could argue that the bottom of Code S really isn't that different from the middle/top of Code A. And the balance in Code A has steadily gotten better, while before it was the opposite, with Code S having the better ratio and Code A being Terran dominant. So it make sense that Code S would eventually become Terran dominant, just like looking at Code A today gives hope that Code S will again diversify. Just look at the list of players who have gone from Code S to Code B, I'll skip the Protoss because so many people will insist they fell out due to imbalance. Maka, Leenock, Byun, Kyrix, TheWind, Boxer (if he's not Code A quality what does that mean to everyone who placed behind him at MLG and NASL?), Jinro (a former MLG champion), ect. Code S and A don't have a huge skill divide except maybe at the very top (MVP cruising through Code A when he got knocked down), so it's not all doom and gloom. | ||
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Secret05
United States342 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
For now I can only say good news for foreign zergs - they have room for improvement. DRG pretty much confirmed this on "Live on three". | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:54 andrewlt wrote: It does sound like Zerg win percentage gets a huge drop in the mid skill levels (US/EU Masters and GM) when the early Zerg rushes are not as effective anymore. But their win percentage goes back up in the Korean Masters and GM level where players are better at managing their larva and that crucial balance between economy and unit production. PvT, on the other hand, is just a straight up drop the more skilled the players become. And you made that conclusion based on...? Well, you just made that conclusion, without any proof whatsoever. Zerg is the least rush-dependant race, making up such assumptions is just silly. And these stats are pre-patch if i understand correctly, and it's 57-57-48, now after protoss buffs and infestor nerfs i wonder how those will turn out. | ||
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ale_jrb
United Kingdom72 Posts
On September 23 2011 05:01 figq wrote: We got adjust-trolled again. I wish we had the access to the non-adjusted stats, because something tells me they are even more out of control. For now I can only say good news for foreign zergs - they have room for improvement. DRG pretty much confirmed this on "Live on three". The non-adjusted stats (or stats taken from sc2ranks etc.) would be completely useless, because they'll have been adjusted by the ladder to be 50%. That's the whole point of matchmaking. The reason they can quote these stats is because they do realise they aren't working with raw data - they have to adjust the percentages from the ladder, because otherwise everything is equal. Of course, the data from just the GM league and tournaments is also useless, because the sample size is much, much too small to mean anything. In a statistical sample, if any individual element (i.e. one player) can have a noticeable effect on the final result, the final result is meaningless. Thus, in tournaments, the results are related much more to player skill than balance. | ||
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Ammanas
Slovakia2166 Posts
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:59 Wuster wrote: Blue flame hellion and Barrack build time weren't significant nerfs? GSL is still playing with the old patch, let's wait and see before we complain that nothing changed for Terran. If you want to see the balance shifting, you have to look at Code A, and of the qualifiers, only 2 were Terran who faced a TvT to get in. Code A is much more diverse overall as well. While, as stated before Code S is set up to keep people in it (Artosis mentioned that having consistent players in Code S lets Gom give them a surrogate salary). I think you could argue that the bottom of Code S really isn't that different from the middle/top of Code A. And the balance in Code A has steadily gotten better, while before it was the opposite, with Code S having the better ratio and Code A being Terran dominant. So it make sense that Code S would eventually become Terran dominant, just like looking at Code A today gives hope that Code S will again diversify. Just look at the list of players who have gone from Code S to Code B, I'll skip the Protoss because so many people will insist they fell out due to imbalance. Maka, Leenock, Byun, Kyrix, TheWind, Boxer (if he's not Code A quality what does that mean to everyone who placed behind him at MLG and NASL?), Jinro (a former MLG champion), ect. Code S and A don't have a huge skill divide except maybe at the very top (MVP cruising through Code A when he got knocked down), so it's not all doom and gloom. BF Hellion nerf only really effects TvT. They're worse against Marines now, but they're still just as effective vs. Zerglings, and it only takes a +1 upgrade for them to two-shot Drones like before. And 5 in game seconds is going to effect what exactly? 11/11? Come on... Terrans in GSL out-macroing Zerg and trading armies with incredible cost efficiency until the Zerg can't keep up? 5 seconds is going to change that? | ||
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:58 Reborn8u wrote: The thing we really need to be asking about balance is why are the random players performing so poorly in Europe. There are 100% more in Korea and NA 1% is not 100% more than 0% | ||
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Heavenly
2172 Posts
On September 23 2011 05:11 Bobster wrote: Looks like Korea needs some better Protoss. The best protoss from the rest of the world have gone there (Naniwa, Huk, Sase). Looks like North America needs some better zergs. | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
On September 23 2011 05:13 Heavenly wrote: The best protoss from the rest of the world have gone there (Naniwa, Huk, Sase). Looks like North America needs some better zergs. kiwikakki would be scary if he went to korea | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On September 23 2011 01:52 Shewklad wrote: Yes, the people on Sotg might want you to think that. Paying attention to a server where the grand master players aren't all even quality players(combatex etc can be in GM on NA) and trying to talk about balance at the highest level just doesnt work. look at Korea if you want balance. | ||
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