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On September 21 2011 15:32 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say  in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth". No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success.
and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc..
to get back to the subject ( )
I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL...
- the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff
- they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff
and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
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On September 20 2011 22:29 Denizen[9] wrote:
millenium made stephano to sign a permanent contract, thats probably the worst thing stefano could do
this
plus a statement that says basically nothing
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On September 21 2011 15:08 ZestyPickle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:02 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 14:52 Bandino wrote:On September 21 2011 14:46 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote:
Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems. - Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France. But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France : Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho. sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ? I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth. I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays.
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On September 21 2011 15:44 hephaestos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:08 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 21 2011 15:02 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 14:52 Bandino wrote:On September 21 2011 14:46 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote:
Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems. - Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France. But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France : Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho. sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ? I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth. I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France. I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays.
Ya in the USA that signature is a big deal, dont know why its a big deal here, or why its not a big deal there but thats life
I would of liked to see him on Col if any team because they would send him to korea and i want more good players in the GSL and it does not seem like it will get there with MIL 
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On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
I seriously doubt French defense lawyers just let their clients get convicted in the Pursuit of Truth.
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Sadly, people are missing the entire point that this sad statement by Mill proves by making it an argument by whether or not coL or Mill is acting in the right as a whole.
1) The strongest 'defense' people have for Mill and Stephano is that Mill was unaware of the negotiating between both parties which coL has pointed out Mill was fully aware Stephano was not only negotiating with them but also other teams as well. Mill statements do nothing to deny this, thus for now, I will take it as truth.
2) Mill claimed coL disoriented Stephano into signing with them, coL claims they simply made him an offer that would have made him one of the highest paid sc2 pros. Mill statements do nothing to deny this, in fact, their statement of disorientation probably aludes to the quantitative values of the contract. The result? Millenium probably expected Stephano to resign with them, and upon finding out that he inked with coL, rushed to get him to sign with them. In all honesty, Mill must have applied the most pressure in this situation to get him to sign a second (permanent) contract and my guess this came down to coL being an American team and my guess here is that they played the nationality card on him. I see no evidence to lead me to believe otherwise.
3) coL is in a tough spot here. As was discussed on SotG tonight, what can you do? Let's totally ignore the totally BS I can ignore a contract for one month in France rule (which by the way would have to work both ways right?) and focus on the fact that this move doesn't merely hurt the integrity of coL and Mill (and most notably Stephano) but also the integrity of sc2 contracts as a whole. If coL does not pursue any action, it begins to promote a system where contracts mean less and less (SixJax to me is a perfect example) and the players become to callous towards the team that is sponsoring them. With no over arching organization to implement any system of rules, and the fact that players GENERALLY will always win the support of the community in such situations, teams are left with very few options in swinging the power they very well should possess.
Please see this situation for what it is and value all the facts or statements that have been presented. coL has produced many statements on how things happened (which are being ignored by many) and Mill produces multiple statements which only center on 'rumors' without actually denying any of the evidence that has been presented by the other team in this situation.
Point is, Mill has the winning hand here. By doing nothing, and (at least in my mind) forcing Stephano to remain with their team, they are forcing coL into a position to make a move which is almost impossible to make AND will will end up being very messy with almost NO chance at an upside. I don't like coL, not a fan of their management, but in this scenario, it appears they are doing exactly what was within their parameters as a team.
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On September 21 2011 15:38 Gwal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:32 stormtemplar wrote:On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth". No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success. and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc.. to get back to the subject ( ) I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
What you said makes no sense... just because col may not have directly presented their offer to Millenium doesn't mean that there was no bidding war. So they make an offer to Stephano who goes and tells Millenium about it and leverages it into a counteroffer. It has also been stated that Millenium was well aware of negotiations with both col and other teams. Col didn't "make" him sign, he chose to sign when he did, and he's up at weird Euro hours all the time showing up in various people's streams. It's the nature of international business. If he wanted to talk to Millenium to get a counter offer, he should have just waited and contacted them. That's how negotiation works, people decide which concessions are worth making and which bluffs are worth calling.
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On September 21 2011 15:48 Daniri wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth". I seriously doubt French defense lawyers just let their clients get convicted in the Pursuit of Truth.
No, what I think he was trying to say is that the primary goal in a US trial is to arbitrate between the offender and the offendee, whereas in France it is to establish the truth. But of course lawyer are as unfaithful here as anywhere.
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Are you referring to civil court?
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I get the impression that Stephano never took pen to paper with Complexity because he was able to sign a contact with Millenium, being french and in France. So if it comes down to a court battle it might end up being a case of "we have a signed paper where is yours?".
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On September 21 2011 15:45 Deathmanbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:44 hephaestos wrote:On September 21 2011 15:08 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 21 2011 15:02 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 14:52 Bandino wrote:On September 21 2011 14:46 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote:
Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems. - Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France. But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France : Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho. sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ? I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth. I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France. I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays. Ya in the USA that signature is a big deal, dont know why its a big deal here, or why its not a big deal there but thats life I would of liked to see him on Col if any team because they would send him to korea and i want more good players in the GSL and it does not seem like it will get there with MIL
I just want to stress out that by no mean it is legal to not honor a written contract in France as anywhere else. It's just that the power of the contract is proportionate to the money at stake and is dependant on the context.
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On September 21 2011 15:45 Deathmanbob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:44 hephaestos wrote:On September 21 2011 15:08 ZestyPickle wrote:On September 21 2011 15:02 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 14:52 Bandino wrote:On September 21 2011 14:46 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote:
Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems. - Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France. But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France : Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho. sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ? I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth. I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France. I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays. Ya in the USA that signature is a big deal, dont know why its a big deal here, or why its not a big deal there but thats life I would of liked to see him on Col if any team because they would send him to korea and i want more good players in the GSL and it does not seem like it will get there with MIL
Do people not see the difference between signing a contract in the country you live in and across borders? If you go to a far-away-country, sign a contract, regrets it and go back to the US do you honestly think they'll be able to hold you responsible in every case? There's been Russian hockey players in the past that have simply left their clubs (them being contracted) and gone to the nhl. And guess what, there was nothing they could do about it. This was a fairly long time ago so international rules might be different but that people act surprised when this kind of contract is unenforcable is beyond me and it has little to do with you valuing signatures more than any other country. Heck, it can even be extreemly difficult to get real criminals transfered from one country to another to get on trial.
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On September 21 2011 15:58 theBizness wrote:
Are you referring to civil court?
I don't know what I'm referring to, I am trying to repeat what was told in diverse medias during the DSK trial, the only source I have about US justice outside CSI.
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Well without getting too involved, civil and criminal court have different burdens of proof (criminal is higher) and are separate entities in the USA with different purposes. Civil actions are started by individuals, while criminal actions cannot be. Civil court is where "damages" etc. would come from. These cannot be awarded in criminal courts in the USA. What you described is closer to arbitration or mediation, which is another process.
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The statement in the OP should have been Millenium's original statement. Their first was unprofessional, reeked of nationalism, and really hurt their image.
If they can come up with a closed door settlement (even it was just 1$), it could save face for both parties and at least appear to maintain the integrity of contracts with progamers. Both parties could announce that the breaking of the contract was indeed a serious matter and a monetary settlement agreed upon.
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this statement is a fucking joke. actions like this do, in fact, hurt esports, what millenium and stephano did is a disgrace. he should be banned from every tournament. for at least 1-2 years
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On September 21 2011 16:00 Orcasgt24 wrote:
I get the impression that Stephano never took pen to paper with Complexity because he was able to sign a contact with Millenium, being french and in France. So if it comes down to a court battle it might end up being a case of "we have a signed paper where is yours?".
I get the impression that you really haven't read any of the threads about this situation.
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About french law :
it's not that french people don't care about contracts, but in France, the labour law is more focused on the worker, according him some rights, giving him a "droit de rétractation" meaning that the employee can change his mind for a few days after he signed the binding contract.
In America, it look like the system protect more the entreprise that the people, or at least about that, and it didnt give them this right.
So : Stephano acted correctly regarding french law, and it's not that he didnt respect CoL, he just acted with french culture toward an american multigaming. It's not that much of a big deal.
(As i said before, i don't defend Mill because i'm french. In fact, Stephano is my favourite progamer, and i think that CoL, just like Millenium, aren't good enough for him)
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On September 21 2011 15:38 Gwal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:32 stormtemplar wrote:On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth". No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success. and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc.. to get back to the subject ( ) I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
How the fuck does someone make another person sign a contract? I'm pretty sure coL wasn't going to kill the kids parent's if he didn't sign. He obviously wanted to sign the damn contract when he did, or else he wouldn't have done it. I don't understand how all these people think coL somehow played a jedi mindtrick on Stephano and forced him to do something that was clearly WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME.
Also, why couldn't a bidding war of happened? Couldn't Stephano report back to Mill with what coL was offering him? That seems pretty logical to me.
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On September 20 2011 22:33 NeoSlicerZ wrote:
Considering the tone that Millenium's previous statement took combined with this. I see no reason to be skeptical of coL's POV.
couldnt agree more!
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EPT
