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On September 21 2011 18:39 tylermakesmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 15:38 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 15:32 stormtemplar wrote:On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say  in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth". No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success. and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc.. to get back to the subject (  ) I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU How the fuck does someone make another person sign a contract? I'm pretty sure coL wasn't going to kill the kids parent's if he didn't sign. He obviously wanted to sign the damn contract when he did, or else he wouldn't have done it. I don't understand how all these people think coL somehow played a jedi mindtrick on Stephano and forced him to do something that was clearly WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME. Also, why couldn't a bidding war of happened? Couldn't Stephano report back to Mill with what coL was offering him? That seems pretty logical to me.
The fact that he sign a contract in the middle of the night (while being sleepy ?) and change his mind the next day (fully awaken ?) could be enough to break the contract, I think.
(No certitude here, juste a tought)
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United Arab Emirates16 Posts
I wonder where is Stephano in all of this?
Iam just reading all those posts and what i understood that he signed two contracts??
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Well after spending the last 3 hours. Cutting thru the swath of posts i have finally read them all. I was hopimg for perhaps some more statements from both mellenium and complexity since that is not yet the case i would lile to state the following from the information gathered.
1) stephano was a free-agent playing under the M tag when he was approached by CoL. To play as a paid contracted player.
2) 18 days of negotiations were held. The debate in this area is to whether or not m was aware of the offers. Now please note if stephano is indeed a free-agent player then no contact with M was necessary
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On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote:
Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
This^ .... hiding the "ground truth" are we?
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On September 21 2011 22:17 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote:
Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't. This^ .... hiding the "ground truth" are we?
And since when do we appreciate Glenn Beck's style of argumentation?
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On September 21 2011 22:06 5thdiv_gaming wrote:
Well after spending the last 3 hours. Cutting thru the swath of posts i have finally read them all. I was hopimg for perhaps some more statements from both mellenium and complexity since that is not yet the case i would lile to state the following from the information gathered.
1) stephano was a free-agent playing under the M tag when he was approached by CoL. To play as a paid contracted player.
2) 18 days of negotiations were held. The debate in this area is to whether or not m was aware of the offers. Now please note if stephano is indeed a free-agent player then no contact with M was necessary
M did know. They were in a bidding war with col for steph for those 18 days
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Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team.
I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely,
me.
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Since i got asked to post this here also and the other topic also reffer to this one ( so here it is ( original post here )
Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 14:57 hephaestos wrote:
The Haag court can only be summoned for (European) human rights infringements. I'm not sure that would be reasonable in our case. It's used for a number of things ( Source ) and it's best known for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, for the war crimes committed in Yugoslavia and the Ethnic Purge that happened there. But you can only make an appeal on it if the Supreme court of the country you are sueing in has been done, which in most cases will take several years to even reach to point that you can make an appeal at the Supreme Court. Other then that the Tribunal in Den Haag will only take a case if the original case was held in on of the Conventions of the PCA. ( France is part of the PCA ) Either way back to the eSport scene i think in all fairness a contract is binding untill one of them decides otherwise, in this case it appears that Stephano changed his mind after signing with Complexity, which in the end is Stephano as person the one who breaks the contract. The only thing Complexity can do is bring Stephano to court for breaking a legal binding document, this can result in a restriction that during the trial date and the point of submitting the case to court, Stephano can be told to not practice Starcraft 2 on a professional level or participate in any tournaments until the judge reached a verdict in the case. I am sure complexity will not take this route and tries the face to face route first with Millennium and Stephano, but in the end if they do not agree they can put Stephano on the side lines of Starcraft 2 until the court has decided. In either case i hope everything works out between Complexity and Stephano since this road will only lead to more drama, troubles and in the end it somebody will pick up the pieces. People should be careful when yelling that this will hurt eSports, since we all know ( at least i hope ) that it will , but the eSports already stepped out of the Childhood shoes and in fact is now just a global business market, where the same rules apply.
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On September 21 2011 23:34 JimSocks wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 22:06 5thdiv_gaming wrote:
Well after spending the last 3 hours. Cutting thru the swath of posts i have finally read them all. I was hopimg for perhaps some more statements from both mellenium and complexity since that is not yet the case i would lile to state the following from the information gathered.
1) stephano was a free-agent playing under the M tag when he was approached by CoL. To play as a paid contracted player.
2) 18 days of negotiations were held. The debate in this area is to whether or not m was aware of the offers. Now please note if stephano is indeed a free-agent player then no contact with M was necessary M did know. They were in a bidding war with col for steph for those 18 days
Quoting Millenium's statement "without any intermediate overbidding".
It's basically Col's point of view versus Mill's point of view.
There are 2 sides in this story:
1) The Law
We cannot say anything there except we'll see. We don't know the exact details and this is something serious. That's the most important part
2) The honor, manner...
Col, after 18 days of debate with Stephano (according to Col), signs him without noticing Millenium (according to Mill). They didn't have to tell Mill anything (but it's not manner according to the fact that Stephano was a Millenium player for about 4 years. He hasn't a contract but he is paid, he is streaming... and you can add that signing a big contract with a 18 years-old at 3a.m is not something you must be proud of...).
Mill, after 8 hours, convinces Stephano to go back with them. They said they didn't break the law. (but it's not manner because Stephano had a contract)
I see 2 teams doing quite poorly, but i don't see one doing worse than the other... Except for communication where Col >> Mill
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On September 21 2011 14:43 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 14:40 s4life wrote:On September 21 2011 14:35 Brotocol wrote:On September 21 2011 13:52 Xouh wrote:On September 21 2011 13:47 Brotocol wrote:On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote:
Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ? France, 14 posts.Ulterior motive in bold. PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory. (Don't care about my posts number ?) Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure. How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment. I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic. Must be a french thing to feel harassed when your boss is "threatening" you with doubling your salary for the next year if you sign a new contract... yeah pretty stressing really. Obvious troll is obvious... He clearly says in his first post that there is a contradiction, "we were throwing offers constantly, but there was no pressure!" Well if there was no pressure why were they throwing offers? Theres his logic brotocol, pretty simple to comprehend, no? , and your racist comment is quite unneeded.s4life...
Yeah, coL was countering any offer Mill may have made with one of their own, how the fuck is that harassing????? was Mill harassing him too? I can't believe people is arguing this point ffs.. and that wasn't a racist comment BTW.
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On September 21 2011 20:16 Dandy_Moustachu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 18:39 tylermakesmusic wrote:On September 21 2011 15:38 Gwal wrote:On September 21 2011 15:32 stormtemplar wrote:On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote:I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth". No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success. and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc.. to get back to the subject ( ) I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU How the fuck does someone make another person sign a contract? I'm pretty sure coL wasn't going to kill the kids parent's if he didn't sign. He obviously wanted to sign the damn contract when he did, or else he wouldn't have done it. I don't understand how all these people think coL somehow played a jedi mindtrick on Stephano and forced him to do something that was clearly WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME. Also, why couldn't a bidding war of happened? Couldn't Stephano report back to Mill with what coL was offering him? That seems pretty logical to me. The fact that he sign a contract in the middle of the night (while being sleepy ?) and change his mind the next day (fully awaken ?) could be enough to break the contract, I think. (No certitude here, juste a tought)
Rofl..... signing a contract while sleepy does void it. Troll somewhere else.
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Hum... coL can basically sue Stephano, and if they are smart enough to have made no mistakes while preparing the contract they are going to win big time.
What is so disturbing about this whole story is that Millenium seem to not care at all about the fact that Stephano only is responsible for breaking the contract, and that they are putting him in huge troubles. Stephano is very young, and he probably doesn't know or realize that you can't sign a contract and then change your mind and ignore it altogether.
But well, I guess business is business and they probably don't care that much.
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On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote:
Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team.
I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely,
me.
Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.
The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
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On September 22 2011 01:10 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote:
Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team.
I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely,
me. Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now.
The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim...
If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them.
I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will.
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On September 22 2011 01:49 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:10 karpo wrote:On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote:
Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team.
I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely,
me. Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour. If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now. The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim... If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them. I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will.
I handle the real world great, as in that situation i can determine what's up based on something other than internet comments and a few lines of text with no first hand information.
I've seen your previous posts where you imagine this scenario where Mill are pressuring Stephano etc. I for one don't know enough to say and i wont go to extremes based on a few lines interpeted as "evil intent". To me you're stretching it especially since all you have to go on are Complexitys PR response and the short Mill statement.
What's to say that Stephano didn't come to Mill with questions regarding his contract, Mill helped him out and Stephano realized the Col contract would mean life changing stuff that he wasn't ready for? We don't know and all i'm saying is that's is fucking ridiculous to start throwing words like "disgust" and similar around when no one but the affected parties knows what's going on.
The handling of the actual contract stuff was bad. Instead of using a loophole Mill could have talked to Complexity and resolved the situation if Stephano really wanted to stay with Mill.
But i guess people want to find stuff to overreact to. It was the exact same thing with EG vs TSL. EG were disgusting and unprofessional, then Lee was disgusting and shouldn't be a coach etc.
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On September 22 2011 02:05 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 01:49 Brotocol wrote:On September 22 2011 01:10 karpo wrote:On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote:
Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team.
I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely,
me. Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour. If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now. The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim... If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them. I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will. I've seen your previous posts where you imagine this scenario where Mill are pressuring Stephano etc. I for one don't know enough to say and i wont go to extremes based on a few lines interpeted as "evil intent". What's to say that Stephano didn't come to Mill with questions regarding his contract, Mill helped him out and Stephano realized the Col contract would mean life changing stuff that he wasn't ready for? We don't know and all i'm saying is that's is fucking ridiculous to start throwing words like "disgust" and similar around when no one but the affected parties knows what's going on. The handling of the actual contract stuff was bad. Instead of using a loophole Mill could have talked to Complexity and resolved the situation if Stephano really wanted to stay with Mill. But i guess people want to find stuff to overreact to. It was the exact same thing with EG vs TSL. EG were disgusting and unprofessional, then Lee was disgusting and shouldn't be a coach etc.
if that's the case you (stephano) go to complexity and talk to them, they let destiny leave because destiny didn't like the contract im sure they would do the same for stephano. what you DONT do is ignore the contract that you just signed and sign with another team.
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If it's true that you've got a 1 month trial time after signing a contract by french law then i can't see how Stephano or Millenium has done anything wrong. coL should know this when they added him and therefore they shouldn't be surprised if he left the first month should Stephano like millenium more. Maybe Stephano planned to use the first month to find out how it was like in coL and then make his decision.
Again, this is just if it's true that you've got 1 month trial time.
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On September 22 2011 02:09 polysciguy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2011 02:05 karpo wrote:On September 22 2011 01:49 Brotocol wrote:On September 22 2011 01:10 karpo wrote:On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote:
Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team.
I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely,
me. Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour. If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now. The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim... If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them. I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will. I've seen your previous posts where you imagine this scenario where Mill are pressuring Stephano etc. I for one don't know enough to say and i wont go to extremes based on a few lines interpeted as "evil intent". What's to say that Stephano didn't come to Mill with questions regarding his contract, Mill helped him out and Stephano realized the Col contract would mean life changing stuff that he wasn't ready for? We don't know and all i'm saying is that's is fucking ridiculous to start throwing words like "disgust" and similar around when no one but the affected parties knows what's going on. The handling of the actual contract stuff was bad. Instead of using a loophole Mill could have talked to Complexity and resolved the situation if Stephano really wanted to stay with Mill. But i guess people want to find stuff to overreact to. It was the exact same thing with EG vs TSL. EG were disgusting and unprofessional, then Lee was disgusting and shouldn't be a coach etc. if that's the case you (stephano) go to complexity and talk to them, they let destiny leave because destiny didn't like the contract im sure they would do the same for stephano. what you DONT do is ignore the contract that you just signed and sign with another team.
I'm not saying it isn't a stupid move but i'm prone to like them just based on the extremely exaggerated responses some people here have to the whole situation, calling is disgusting and requesting Mill to kick Stephano.
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On September 22 2011 02:11 ovnell wrote:
If it's true that you've got a 1 month trial time after signing a contract by french law then i can't see how Stephano or Millenium has done anything wrong. coL should know this when they added him and therefore they shouldn't be surprised if he left the first month should Stephano like millenium more. Maybe Stephano planned to use the first month to find out how it was like in coL and then make his decision.
Again, this is just if it's true that you've got 1 month trial time.
from what ive heard the trial time isn't universal, its an exception rather than the rule. granted i don't know much about french law, this is just from what some french people have posted.
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On September 21 2011 06:15 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 04:56 blackone wrote:
I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama.
Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone?
But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times! coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money.
Money they would also have lost, if Stephano had never signed their contract.
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EPT
