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On September 21 2011 08:54 Supter wrote:
Yeah, sure. Millenium wanted to loose their best players, or at least didnt try to keep him. Sound logic to me.
how about you shut up and stop kissing a certain french teams bottom ? 
Millenium is obviously an "organisation" with no self-esteem , same goes for Stephano , I hope coL takes legal meajures(?) against them both. THAT'S the civilised way.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Permanent contract? that sounds pretty serious. Hope everything works out with stephano alright and this just seems really wishy washy or vague to an extent.
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On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote:
My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team.
Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation. Do you really think that Stephano leaving M wasnt huge enough to make the whole team speak about it ?
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them a few hours later. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when he woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ?
Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them.
You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Most Sensible statement i've read so far on the Stephano Situation...
I really hope Stephano stays with Millenium he was raised and became good on Team Millenium let him stay there or Millenium will lose their best player...
I find it hard to believe CoL. didn't use Sneaky Tactics to Poach Stephano
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I believe that complexity already said that they were being ignored by both Millennium and Stephano. So if you wanted to enter discussions, you could have done it before all of this happened. Then, there would be no "internet gossip" because we would likely not have heard that coL signed Stephano if it had been a collective discussion. Instead, we get a message that says "Stephano realized his mistake" and a day full of random guessing. So, do not spew nonsense about professionalism and respectful practices.
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Let me liken it to analogy to see if I understand the situation from Millenium's point of view...
Let's say I'm bidding at an online auction. I see a Zergling plushie I want, which has a "buy now" option set at $5000, yet the current bids are only around ~$2500. I'd be more than willing to pay $5000 (or more) for it, but I feel like getting a discount if I can. On the plus side, I also know the seller personally, so I don't need to worry about any sorts of shadiness.
So, I make a competitive bid. Later, another person, let's call him Col, bids on the item as well. Over the span of a couple of days, the highest bid alternates between myself and Col. Out of the blue, one night, Col decides he's had enough and chooses to buy it out for $5000 while I'm sleeping. The audacity! I quickly type a furious email to Col, for not notifying me. How dare he! I was more than willing to pay $5000 for it all along! I was just having a bit of fun with letting others put in their offers, but that plushie was essentially mine to begin with!
Col tells me that's how an auction works and he's not obligated to let me know of his contract negotiations, oops, I mean bids. Fine. But I'm not willing to go down without a fight and explore my options.
Instead of being a normal person and ceding the fact that I was resting on my laurels and was bested by another, I decide to forgo the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson from the ordeal. In fact, I decide that I want, no, needed that plushie so badly I was going to go through any means necessary to secure it.
I contact the seller directly, and make an offer to outbid the buy out. I also throw in the fact that we'd been friends for years and he'd be a total dick for not complying. He's a bit skeptical, but I convince the seller, Stephano, that there's no way Col can prosecute him due to a technicality of the purchase needing to be made in Euros just because. I can be very persuasive.
So he sends the item to me instead, and for the hell of it, I decide to put it through the wash so it can't be returned.
Now Col's all upset because he already told all his friends about the zergling plushie that he had in fact legitimately purchased and the auction site community is annoyed because the credibility of the whole process has been damaged... But Stephano and I, happy with having pulled off the transaction, decide to ignore the emails, unfriend and block them on facebook and spam "lolololols" at the MSN messages of legal reprisal because "nah nah nah nah nah nah" they can't do anything about it.
Col begins to explore his avenues for legal recourse while the community, furious, starts hurting my feedback rating on ebay and amazon, so I decide to release a public statement explaining that there's some kind of misunderstanding and I'll be sorting it out privately and that there are many unfounded rumors.
My only real points of contention go no further than the fact that I was clearly asleep when he made the bid and that the bid wasn't made in Euros, but even I realize that it sounds a bit silly so I decide to keep it under wraps so people will assume there was more. In the meantime, I continue to let my friends make weak arguments on my behalf about how exhausted I must have been because I was up all night playing Starcraft 2, and how important it is that a bid be made in Euros, otherwise the entire transaction is invalid.
That's just about how professional Millenium and Stephano appear to me.
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On September 21 2011 09:54 XRaDiiX wrote:
I find it hard to believe CoL. didn't use Sneaky Tactics to Poach Stephano
They had a bid off for him, nothing to do with sneaky tactics
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On September 21 2011 09:54 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote:
My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team.
Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation. Do you really think that Stephano leaving M wasnt huge enough to make the whole team speak about it ?
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them a few hours later. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when he woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ?
Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them.
You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Most Sensible statement i've read so far on the Stephano Situation... I really hope Stephano stays with Millenium he was raised and became good on Team Millenium let him stay there or Millenium will lose their best player... I find it hard to believe CoL. didn't use Sneaky Tactics to Poach Stephano
Don't say shit unless you're willing to source it with detailed information, the only real responses we have are from Complexity who have more or less detailed their approach to signing Stephano. He was legally a free agent and it has been established that in these scenarios it's normal(for good reason) to contact the player since he has his own best interests in mind, subsequently they've suggested that he acted as the target for a series of offers between the two parties.
Millenium has given us nothing detailed with which we can say that Complexity used sneaky tactics so you're really just being asinine in your assumptions.
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All this says is "Stephano signed a contract with us, we're pretty sure we're not doing anything against the law"
This explains nothing, until then, I'm going to side with coL on this one.
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On September 21 2011 09:37 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote:
So, what were they suppose to do ?
Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them.
You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
If he signed a contract, then yes you say "damn, looks like we lost out on it". Alternatively, you can talk to CoL / Stephano, and see if both of those parties are interested in having Millenium buy out the contract (note that the reason you need to talk to CoL here is that they have a contract, whereas in the case of the negotiation with Millenium, there was no contract to be bought out). Regardless of how much of a bummer it is, a contract is a contract - the mere fact that it may be bad for your team to lose the player is not a valid reason for breaking a contract. Childish is doing what you want without regards for prior signed agreements.
According to french law, it's not a valid contract, so, it's like there is no binding contract.
I'm not saying that Millenium did well and that they are right, i'm just saying :
1. Maybe CoL is not as white as they seem to be
2. Millenium head wasnt aware of the CoL/Stephano situation, or at least, they didnt expected CoL to make them sign THAT early.
3. According to french law, there is no binding contract between CoL and Stephano : if the contract is not valid, then it's like it doesnt exist.
I don't say that Millenium are good guys, but i don't think there is good guys and bad guys in this story. There is a stupid guy (Stephano) and two teams which fight for their interests and use what they can use.
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On September 21 2011 10:01 HauntYou wrote:
Let me liken it to analogy to see if I understand the situation from Millenium's point of view...
Let's say I'm bidding at an online auction. I see a Zergling plushie I want, which has a "buy now" option set at $5000, yet the current bids are only around ~$2500. I'd be more than willing to pay $5000 (or more) for it, but I feel like getting a discount if I can. On the plus side, I also know the seller personally, so I don't need to worry about any sorts of shadiness.
So, I make a competitive bid. Later, another person, let's call him Col, bids on the item as well. Over the span of a couple of days, the highest bid alternates between myself and Col. Out of the blue, one night, Col decides he's had enough and chooses to buy it out for $5000 while I'm sleeping. The audacity! I quickly type a furious email to Col, for not notifying me. How dare he! I was more than willing to pay $5000 for it all along! I was just having a bit of fun with letting others put in their offers, but that plushie was essentially mine to begin with!
Col tells me that's how an auction works and he's not obligated to let me know of his contract negotiations, oops, I mean bids. Fine. But I'm not willing to go down without a fight and explore my options.
Instead of being a normal person and ceding the fact that I was resting on my laurels and was bested by another, I decide to forgo the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson from the ordeal. In fact, I decide that I want, no, needed that plushie so badly I was going to go through any means necessary to secure it.
I contact the seller directly, and make an offer to outbid the buy out. I also throw in the fact that we'd been friends for years and he'd be a total dick for not complying. He's a bit skeptical, but I convince the seller, Stephano, that there's no way Col can prosecute him due to a technicality of the purchase needing to be made in Euros just because. I can be very persuasive.
So he sends the item to me instead, and for the hell of it, I decide to put it through the wash so it can't be returned.
Now Col's all upset because he already told all his friends about the zergling plushie that he had in fact legitimately purchased and the auction site community is annoyed because the credibility of the whole process has been damaged... But Stephano and I, happy with having pulled off the transaction, decide to ignore the emails, unfriend and block them on facebook and spam "lolololols" at the MSN messages of legal reprisal because "nah nah nah nah nah nah" they can't do anything about it.
Col begins to explore his avenues for legal recourse while the community, furious, starts hurting my feedback rating on ebay and amazon, so I decide to release a public statement explaining that there's some kind of misunderstanding and I'll be sorting it out privately and that there are many unfounded rumors.
My only real points of contention go no further than the fact that I was clearly asleep when he made the bid and that the bid wasn't made in Euros, but even I realize that it sounds a bit silly so I decide to keep it under wraps so people will assume there was more. In the meantime, I continue to let my friends make weak arguments on my behalf about how exhausted I must have been because I was up all night playing Starcraft 2, and how important it is that a bid be made in Euros, otherwise the entire transaction is invalid.
That's just about how professional Millenium and Stephano appear to me.
You whole interpretation is wrong.
There is no 5 000$ 'buy now" option, there is only a 2 500$ option.
Here is the deal :
You have 24 hours after each offer to make another, if you don't, then the one who made the higher offer got the Zerglings plushie.
In this case, Millenium used the seller's plushie for like 8 months, but they'd like to buy it.
Here come CoL, they make an offer. Well, it's ok, that is how things works.
But they come to see Stephano, the seller and tell him "Hey dude, He can't make you an offer higher, plus, it's like awesome if you sell it to me yaknow ?"
You wake up and see that he already sold the item you wanted, so you tell him "Hey guy, i used to use it, and i can make you an higher offer, plus the rules of the site you used, E(ngenering)Bay.com, say that you can still sell it to another personn one hour after !
See ?
So, you start with the wrong idea.
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Wait so hours after complexity announced you signed? I'm sure complexity announced after they signed him, meaning you signed him after complexity. Or am I wrong?
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all in all...
Stephano and millenium both GG'ed their own careers, businesses, and establishments. There is nothing to be said about shady business and shady people. these thigns happen and you get on with it and move on. honestly from a coL pt of view would you really want stephano now? i understand he is a good player and all but i would never want anyone to represent me or my team or be associated with someone who cannot be upfront and stay true to their word. end of discussion
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I'm just sad because it's their fault NaNiwa has to leave Dignitas ):
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They didnt gg'ed their own careers, the whole thing will be forget in two weeks.
(plus, i'm not a Millenium member, i just have a friend who is part of this team, nothing official so, i don't know if AtariJesus's "you" refered to me)
On September 21 2011 10:20 ChroMaTe_ wrote:
I'm just sad because it's their fault NaNiwa has to leave Dignitas ):
Tomorrow we will see : "Stephano sign with Dignitas" ah ah :D
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On September 21 2011 10:22 Supter wrote:
They didnt gg'ed their own careers, the whole thing will be forget in two weeks.
Just like the EG/TSL thing. Oh wait..
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On September 21 2011 10:24 Mazer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 10:22 Supter wrote:
They didnt gg'ed their own careers, the whole thing will be forget in two weeks. Just like the EG/TSL thing. Oh wait..
Did EG and Puma gg'ed their own careers ?
Oh wait, no one mind anymore.
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On September 21 2011 10:01 HauntYou wrote:
Let me liken it to analogy to see if I understand the situation from Millenium's point of view...
Let's say I'm bidding at an online auction. I see a Zergling plushie I want, which has a "buy now" option set at $5000, yet the current bids are only around ~$2500. I'd be more than willing to pay $5000 (or more) for it, but I feel like getting a discount if I can. On the plus side, I also know the seller personally, so I don't need to worry about any sorts of shadiness.
So, I make a competitive bid. Later, another person, let's call him Col, bids on the item as well. Over the span of a couple of days, the highest bid alternates between myself and Col. Out of the blue, one night, Col decides he's had enough and chooses to buy it out for $5000 while I'm sleeping. The audacity! I quickly type a furious email to Col, for not notifying me. How dare he! I was more than willing to pay $5000 for it all along! I was just having a bit of fun with letting others put in their offers, but that plushie was essentially mine to begin with!
Col tells me that's how an auction works and he's not obligated to let me know of his contract negotiations, oops, I mean bids. Fine. But I'm not willing to go down without a fight and explore my options.
Instead of being a normal person and ceding the fact that I was resting on my laurels and was bested by another, I decide to forgo the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson from the ordeal. In fact, I decide that I want, no, needed that plushie so badly I was going to go through any means necessary to secure it.
I contact the seller directly, and make an offer to outbid the buy out. I also throw in the fact that we'd been friends for years and he'd be a total dick for not complying. He's a bit skeptical, but I convince the seller, Stephano, that there's no way Col can prosecute him due to a technicality of the purchase needing to be made in Euros just because. I can be very persuasive.
So he sends the item to me instead, and for the hell of it, I decide to put it through the wash so it can't be returned.
Now Col's all upset because he already told all his friends about the zergling plushie that he had in fact legitimately purchased and the auction site community is annoyed because the credibility of the whole process has been damaged... But Stephano and I, happy with having pulled off the transaction, decide to ignore the emails, unfriend and block them on facebook and spam "lolololols" at the MSN messages of legal reprisal because "nah nah nah nah nah nah" they can't do anything about it.
Col begins to explore his avenues for legal recourse while the community, furious, starts hurting my feedback rating on ebay and amazon, so I decide to release a public statement explaining that there's some kind of misunderstanding and I'll be sorting it out privately and that there are many unfounded rumors.
My only real points of contention go no further than the fact that I was clearly asleep when he made the bid and that the bid wasn't made in Euros, but even I realize that it sounds a bit silly so I decide to keep it under wraps so people will assume there was more. In the meantime, I continue to let my friends make weak arguments on my behalf about how exhausted I must have been because I was up all night playing Starcraft 2, and how important it is that a bid be made in Euros, otherwise the entire transaction is invalid.
That's just about how professional Millenium and Stephano appear to me. I find this quite accurate as an analogy. But the conclusion should mention that if I was Complexity and I really wanted that plushie, then maybe, the professional thing to do was to double-check whether my bid in dollars was actually valid.
Two wrongs certainly don't do one right, and this does not excuse Stephano nor Millenium, but the lack of professionalism and self-inflicted bad PR is quite equally shared in this whole mess.
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I wish teams would just be transparent about their positions if they decide to make statements at all. I get a little bitter when one side makes a statement and explains their side with logic, and another makes a statement that states there stance with no thought process. I would normally say NDA your dealings, but I think coL was under the impression that this was finalized. In the end, you will have a lot of people disliking an entire roster of players because you don't have a leg to stand on, or won't give yourself one.
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On September 21 2011 10:24 Mazer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2011 10:22 Supter wrote:
They didnt gg'ed their own careers, the whole thing will be forget in two weeks. Just like the EG/TSL thing. Oh wait..
No one is "gg'ing" anything! That would be silly. The thing is: people from outside France don't know exactly what Millenium said on the stream (except the ones that speak french) so it was pretty much reading on forums what people heard from their staff. However, CoL made their statement as soon as they "lost" Stephano so they are expecting the same from Millenium, or maybe people are just hating "France e-sports scene" (aka Millenium and people with french scene bias) for not letting Stephano get more international and maybe even play with MVP fellas at Korea... :|
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please please please sue the shit out of Millennium. Need to set an example for esports to grow!
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EPT
