EPTPvZ mothership and carrier replay pack - Page 3
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JediGamer
United States656 Posts
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
I haven't toyed with the mothership much though, I didn't like it due to NP/slow accel before, but since those are gone now I guess I'll have to try it out some more. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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Ownos
United States2147 Posts
On September 22 2011 17:16 Skipton wrote: Nice contribution. I really feel that Carrier / Mothership is sill the most underdeveloped portion of the game at the moment. Most Protoss don't even seem to consider using Carriers as an actual unit, and have yet to take into the idea of utilizing Recall in Mid to Late game scenarios as a harass leading into escape option. There needs to be more innovation at the moment for Protoss and i really feel that these units are so overlooked when weighing the options of how to transition into the mid to late game. I've done recall based harass before. It's much safer than putting your MS out there on the field. I've yet to see any pro do this though. You could snipe zerg expansions and if they counterattack, recall and defend. If they try to fight you, recall away and reinforce. Regarding the Situation Report, I sort of do agree... whenever I've personally used carriers vs zerg I've always thought to myself "wow, if this ever gets popular it's going to get nerfed." Nothing short of mass 200/200 corruptors would work after a certain point and I've had that happen and still beat it. Still, my personal successes don't mean shit and seeing no pros using them in tournaments is discouraging. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
And zerg can get scourge in HotS to combat carriers. Problem solved. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Your general build seems to go something like: FE (usually FFE), scout for Z's 3rd at 5-6 min, if he's expanded, tech straight to colossi (or 6 gate), take quick third around the time that the first colossus pops, add second robo, then transition to carrier+archon while trying to cannon+nexus the map. I couldn't get all of the replays to load, but that seemed to be the outline from what I saw. What are your thoughts on the order for twilight council/templar archives/stargate/fleet beacon? Twilight council is needed for +2 weapons, but the archons seem to be the last addition to your deathball when you've finally got the 10 gas geysers to make the perfect all-gas composition. In the games I watched, those 4 tech structures along with +2 weapons seemed to be kind of jumbled in all at the same time. Do you worry about spending too much of your income on tech at this window? Why 2 robo's? They came in handy when you got caught in bad positions and lost your core, but for the most part, you rarely used both at the same time, and often, they both sat idle as you tended to stop at ~6 colossi anyway. Do you feel like you need 2 robo's to boost your colossus count fast enough to defend your aggressive expansions? Or do you want the extra production capacity should you need to rebuild your colossus core quickly? Do you think about applying pressure beyond the occasional zealot or DT drop, or is your plan more about grabbing bases and crafting the perfect 200/200 composition? Do you see any timings where you could apply direct pressure? Blink and storm--are they worth it? Assuming you're going with the expand+defend strategy, when would you research them? I assume you'd only want at most 2 HT kept for storm, and the rest made into archons before engaging. How thrilled are you about the infestor nerfs? NP seemed to be the only thing that gave you problems in the mid-game. | ||
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
On September 24 2011 02:28 Ownos wrote: I've done recall based harass before. It's much safer than putting your MS out there on the field. I've yet to see any pro do this though. You need to watch Kiwikaki games from a few months ago, he's been doing it off and on for a while. | ||
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Deleted User 108965
1096 Posts
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
2) What's the best way to position your units after you vortex their army? It seems from the replays it is still beneficial to throw your archons into the vortex, but then you should just make a circle around the vortex with all your other units? | ||
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marttorn
Norway5211 Posts
 I think last time I saw a protoss use Mothership in competitive play was, uh, ro64 of super tournament? Trickster/anypro/somebody i'm not remembering finished off jookto/revival/somebody i'm not remembering with what was basically a "manner-ship" | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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WArped
United Kingdom4845 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
i think the carriers are good but honestly i think it might be really smart to try to get way more archons, like half carriers half archons. the archons aoe takes out the corrupters fast and vortex counters broodlords pretty well and broodlords move so slow they can be dealt with. the big problem is dealing with the corrupters also archons move so fast you could probably run around the map with them doing damage then recalling them. the archons force MASS amounts of roaches which really arent that great but without MASS ROACHES the zerg cant really deal with 15 archons running around the map rolling over everything however it would be so hard getting that many archons. but i think the really is ideally the ultimate PvZ lategame army. half carriers half archons + mothership + a few templars for storm | ||
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mrsaturn
United States22 Posts
the archons and the vortex just demolish the corruptors. and the carriers handle the rest. its so easy to just snipe overseers and let your cloaking field take over. few zergs actually get the crucial air upgrades for their corruptors to handle the carrier/interceptor. after protoss air switch, every brood lord they morph is honestly helping the protoss. i think to beat it you need ultralisk/roach/infestor to control the ground. 16-24 (tons) of corruptors with 5 armor and max damage to shrug off interceptor hits and snipe massive air units quickly. a few overseers, 1 isnt enough. good unit control to avoid vortex,storms, archon splash. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On September 27 2011 23:12 kcdc wrote: Anihc, great replay pack. Thanks for the upload. I'm totally gonna copy your PvZ. Couple questions. Your general build seems to go something like: FE (usually FFE), scout for Z's 3rd at 5-6 min, if he's expanded, tech straight to colossi (or 6 gate), take quick third around the time that the first colossus pops, add second robo, then transition to carrier+archon while trying to cannon+nexus the map. I couldn't get all of the replays to load, but that seemed to be the outline from what I saw. What are your thoughts on the order for twilight council/templar archives/stargate/fleet beacon? Twilight council is needed for +2 weapons, but the archons seem to be the last addition to your deathball when you've finally got the 10 gas geysers to make the perfect all-gas composition. In the games I watched, those 4 tech structures along with +2 weapons seemed to be kind of jumbled in all at the same time. Do you worry about spending too much of your income on tech at this window? Why 2 robo's? They came in handy when you got caught in bad positions and lost your core, but for the most part, you rarely used both at the same time, and often, they both sat idle as you tended to stop at ~6 colossi anyway. Do you feel like you need 2 robo's to boost your colossus count fast enough to defend your aggressive expansions? Or do you want the extra production capacity should you need to rebuild your colossus core quickly? Do you think about applying pressure beyond the occasional zealot or DT drop, or is your plan more about grabbing bases and crafting the perfect 200/200 composition? Do you see any timings where you could apply direct pressure? Blink and storm--are they worth it? Assuming you're going with the expand+defend strategy, when would you research them? I assume you'd only want at most 2 HT kept for storm, and the rest made into archons before engaging. How thrilled are you about the infestor nerfs? NP seemed to be the only thing that gave you problems in the mid-game. Order for twilight/archives/stargate/fleet beacon - yea I see that you could tell I was just randomly throwing up tech buildings in a lot of my games :p I'm glad that you mentioned worrying about spending too much of my income on tech at the same time, since actually this has become an issue for me recently - I've lost to several zergs who just quickly max on roach/infestor and then attack. For some reason in the past most zergs just wait for hive tech, which gives me enough time to get out carrier/mothership/etc. So now I think an important thing is to keep an eye on when they start their hive (i.e. obs in their main), because if they don't get hive there's no need to tech to fleet beacon. Stargate is still good though, since mixing in voids is always great. I guess order should be twilight (for +2), stargate, and then fleet beacon when you see hive, and finally templar archives when you're about to complete your death ball. I originally went double robo because one of my other favorite openings is a fast +1 6 gate, and I'd follow that up with double robo colo since your robo comes late and I feel the need to catch up on colo count. But I guess if you go fast robo/colo, there's really no need for the double robo. I'd recommend a faster stargate instead and adding in voids earlier rather than a 2nd robo. Once you get to 4+ bases though a 2nd robo is always good. There's really no way to apply pressure other than zealot/dt/drops. I've tried just maxing on gateway/colo and attacking, but if you tech/expand at the same time then your attack is too slow, and if you don't tech at all then you'll lose to hive tech. Blink is always great to have. That's actually a weakness of my play, I know I often don't really utilize blink well. The question of storm vs archon - I've actually been leaning more towards storm recently. When I face good zergs who spread out their units and don't throw everything into vortex, then archons actually get killed by broodlords who are outside the vortex. Thus storm becomes much better for you to defend your carriers against corruptors. Yea infestor nerfs + mothership buff makes this deathball style extremely strong now. Now really the only thing I'm scared of is mass corruptor/BL + fast remax. | ||
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