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Stephano contract situation - Page 95

Forum Index > SC2 General
3152 CommentsPost a Reply
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Lack of content, flaming (of the French or anyone) and useless posts will be punished. Please keep it from being too inflammatory and keep discussion on-topic. -semioldguy (p.103)

Update: Please read http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=267506#1 and continue the discussion there.
dafunk
Profile Joined January 2009
France521 Posts
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1881
On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:49 EvOr wrote:
Wanna guess what's the next move of Stephano : Going back to his studies, he switch to a full time pro-gamer, right before entering med school, he will switch back to being a student...



Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really?


Actually the funny thing is that he lied about this too. He isnt going to med school at all and didnt even finished college when he said it...

The guy is a liar and a kid, thats all :/
Otolia
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
France5805 Posts
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1882
On September 20 2011 07:12 Cyrak wrote:
If this situations turns out to be as it appears once the dust has settled I think it'd be great if IPL revoked Stephano's spot in the finals. Since contracts with players seem to be absolutely meaningless it lies with the tournament organizers to enforce a set of standards for the SC2 'industry.'

Day by day I think the foreign scene is learning why KESPA was actually a good idea.

I've got a better idea. Let's just kill Stephano and launch a nuclear missile on France. Paris would be good. Too much assholes there.

Totalitarianism makes me giggle.

User was temp banned for this post.
Bone.be
Profile Joined March 2011
Belgium64 Posts
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1883
Leave Stephano alone. Both clans are making themselves really ridiculous. Those who are posting all this E-drama on Team liquid even more. Is col going to oblige Stephano to join their clan now? .....................
You can find belgian players in the european channel: Belgianmasters
Aquilla
Profile Joined May 2011
69 Posts
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1884
That's what happens when you take someone who was sitting at home alone playing games and a year later start throwing huge contracts at him. Sc2 players need managers or agents to make decisions for them
Himali
Profile Joined July 2010
France12 Posts
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1885
On September 20 2011 07:13 Ym!r wrote:
They chose to tell him the contract is garbage, pretending it's in Stephano's favor to stay with Millenium, when it's not, they don't have half the opportunities coL could provide him

Finally, as said by Millenium : " LET S FOCUS ON THE FRENCH LANS"

Some people says that the american aren't aware of the world outside of USA, but
what about France ? That's seriously selfish from Millenium, they are killing Stephano's carreer, one year in SC2 is a LOT
[/b]

That is just unfair, you obviously do know nothing about both team audience reach and fan base development.
EvOr
Profile Joined July 2011
France48 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 22:16:12
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1886
On September 20 2011 07:12 Koorb wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:07 gulbanana wrote:
- the contract wasn't in french
- it attempted to subject the employee to a different country's labour laws
- it had the form of a contract for fixed service provision, but the function of employment
- it made no provision for specification or limitation of a probationary period, yet purported to apply from the date of witness

we have been told all these things by compLexity representatives. any of them, alone, would be sufficient to void the document.



The only mandatory mention in an employment contract are, according to French labor law:

- What job the employee does
- The professionnal qualification of the employee
- His wages
- The collective agreement that contract is related to
- If it's a CDI or a CDD.

And that's it. Mention to probatory period is not mandatory.


According to complexity it's a contractor contract, (en français prestataire), which means the only thing that should be in the contract is the service they want and how much money they will pay for this service. And our australian buddy gulbanana actually read this statement and made an informative and accurate post according to this.
ZestyPickle
Profile Joined July 2011
United States104 Posts
September 19 2011 22:14 GMT
#1887
On September 20 2011 07:14 gulbanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:38 ZestyPickle wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:

Stephano signs contract with col

Stephano change his mind

coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it

Stephano and mil look like idiots

case closed


All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


.....
I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business.

You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal..

this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment.


Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further


No. You have no idea of the actual wording, and I guarantee you that if he signed his name, regardless of whatever the fuck was written down he will be held accountable for something.

on what basis are you making this guarantee?


US Law. Go look it up. Please. Its valid in the US.
zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 22:15:19
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1888
On September 20 2011 07:14 Himali wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:13 Ym!r wrote:
They chose to tell him the contract is garbage, pretending it's in Stephano's favor to stay with Millenium, when it's not, they don't have half the opportunities coL could provide him

Finally, as said by Millenium : " LET S FOCUS ON THE FRENCH LANS"

Some people says that the american aren't aware of the world outside of USA, but
what about France ? That's seriously selfish from Millenium, they are killing Stephano's carreer, one year in SC2 is a LOT


That is just unfair, you obviously do know nothing about both team audience reach and fan base development.

Neither do you.
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
Brettatron
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada159 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 22:31:40
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1889
LOL @ people who know nothing about contract law arguing this. Not that I'm an expert, but some people are saying some ridiculous things. There is already plenty of precedence about jurisdiction of contract law internationally. I'm at work right now but I think I might go home after and pull out some old cases just to see how this could play out.

Contract law is contract law. Hopefully we can build some precedence so that this does not occur. As best as I can tell, it all comes down to where the contract was made. If it was made in France then their law will apply, which, if the thread is to be believed, has some sort of grace period where you can back out. Determining where it was made would be a matter of HOW it was made. There is precedence set for verbal, by phone, by fax, by mail, by telegram, by email... pretty much by any sort of communication. I can't remember at the moment, but if it is by email I BELIEVE the contract is made once the offeree (Stephano) sends the email, which would mean the contract is made where he sends it, IE France. I could be wrong on that, I'd have to review my contract law.

I'm curious how the contract was made now. That, to me, is the key to this.

Oh also, someone mentioned this earlier in the thread but the lawsuit isn't going to require "specific performance" IE force Stephano to play for coL. That would be silly, we all agree. And damages would be hard to prove in this case. There is no way of knowing if he would bring in any sponsors or win any tournaments. But they MAY be able to get punitive damages, to discourage this sort of thing from happening again. But, as mentioned by a previous poster, it is uncertain whether Mil has the money to pay it. So it might all be for naught.
Myles
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5162 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-19 22:16:16
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1890
On September 20 2011 07:11 gulbanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:09 Myles wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:07 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:02 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:02 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:36 havox_ wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:
[quote]
you forgot

now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind"
do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from?

do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol"
what century are you from?
stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it.

And the Australians would say that it's perfectly fine to not hold on to an agreement, cuz you found a loophole in it? That's amazing =)

that's how the law works, yes. should courts go by the "spirit of an agreement"? it's unworkable.

in this case, we're not talking about minor loopholes either, but massive, fundamental problems.


so by "massive fundamental problems" you mean "not in french"?

K.

- the contract wasn't in french
- it attempted to subject the employee to a different country's labour laws
- it had the form of a contract for fixed service provision, but the function of employment
- it made no provision for specification or limitation of a probationary period, yet purported to apply from the date of witness

we have been told all these things by compLexity representatives. any of them, alone, would be sufficient to void the document.


You don't even understand basic contract law(as proven when calling work length agreements 'barbaric') so stop talking about this like you know anything at all. The fact is that an ACTUAL LAWYER is not exactly sure how this will unfold, so quit acting like you are.

workers' rights supersede contract law - at least, everywhere other than the USA. contracts exist only as allowed BY law, and a nation's rules for employment, as democratically enacted, limit what is possible in a contract. i'm entirely in my right to call it barbaric to allow people to sign away years of their lives with no recourse. i don't believe that even america really allows that - you're just ignorant enough to think it does.


I'm done responding to you after this. This is the last I will say to you because you seem like a troll to me.

You can, and people do, leave contracts all the time. There is usually a settlement and agreement when that happens, based upon what was written in the contract. The problem here is that they are completely ignoring the contract, which if legally binding is a huge problem. You need to quit acting like you know if it's legally binding or not.
Moderator
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1891
Is there anyone with actual legal knowledge in this thread (ie: not high school armchair internet lawyers) who can shed some light on whether complexity could sue in US court to bar Stephano from getting any gaming related VISA to the US for tournaments?
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
Chargelot
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
2275 Posts
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1892
On September 20 2011 07:12 EvOr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:08 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:06 Ubes wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:03 Ruscour wrote:
On September 20 2011 07:01 najreteip wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:51 justinpal wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:49 EvOr wrote:
Wanna guess what's the next move of Stephano : Going back to his studies, he switch to a full time pro-gamer, right before entering med school, he will switch back to being a student...



Stephano is 18? He is going to med school soon? Really?

Why not? Going to university at 18 seems pretty normal to me

I was gonna say, I'm at university right now and I'm 17, studying at uni at 18 isn't out of the norm at all..

Med School at 18 isn't the norm.

in france, medical school begins at an undergraduate level. this is also true in australia, and many other places.

there's a common theme in this thread: people assuming that the way things work in their country is the way they do, and should, work everywhere else.


Thanks, people should look up the country of the poster, it will save them time. In France you start medical studies at University at 17/18 depending if you're born before October or not (some people start earlier), and then you do 5/7(10+) years of studies to reache what you want, it takes dedication and memory guess what a starcraft pro gamer has ? And being a doctor pay better and longer than a stacraft 2 progamer right now, I'd be really surprised if the shit storm or a lawsuit ensues, if Stephano will stick with the game at a pro level.


Aside from when you start, the same can be said for most countries. In America it starts at the graduate level, and in France it starts at the undergrad level. It's not that big of a deal, and we shouldn't argue over that. In the end either country gets highly trained, highly skilled doctors who are ready for their career in saving lives.
if (post == "stupid") { document.getElementById('post').style.display = 'none'; }
Koorb
Profile Joined March 2011
France266 Posts
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1893
On September 20 2011 07:08 Kaedeleus wrote:
" Lewellys stated that he doesn't plan on sending Stephano to lots of international event, and that he will focus on French events." is a fake.
Lewellys never say that I was on the stream. He said that stephano go to the french evant if he have the time


He clearly stated that the whole purpose of Millenium is not to become a global team, that competes all over the world, but to improve the esport in France.

He also said that he didn't plan on sending Stephano to more international events that he already had (i.e. only in European events).
Liquipedia
gulbanana
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia56 Posts
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1894
On September 20 2011 06:39 Kinetic42 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:35 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:28 Myles wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:

Stephano signs contract with col

Stephano change his mind

coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it

Stephano and mil look like idiots

case closed


All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

you forgot

now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind"
do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from?


I live in the 21st century where contracts (should) mean something. So no, I don't think if you sign a contract saying you'll be with a company for x days/months/years/whatever, that you can quit said contract whenever you want. Not with out consequences at least.
barbaric. anybody should be able to quit their job, with a given notice period. as is the case in basically every country in the world. i hear some u.s. states don't actually allow that, which is insane - you can really sign your life away for X months or years without a chance to go back on it? surely not.


You're thinking of this in the employment category, which this is "surely not". Stephano was acting more as an independent contractor. This means the contract would have mutual obligations from both sides, and be more similar to a business to business deal than an employee-employer contract.
the distinction between 'employee' and 'contractor' doesn't exist in that sense in france. workers, of any form, have rights - and can only be employed (or contracted) by valid contracts.


Do businesses just up and break contracts in your country? To think that some countries allow that is simply insane - you can really agree to do a job and then back out with no repercussions? Surely not.

yes they do. the probationary period in french law - which exists in australian law, too - is for the benefit of the EMPLOYER as well as the EMPLOYEE. many businesses are quite happy to have the ability to fire someone without consequence in the first few weeks, should they decide to.
nooboon
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
2602 Posts
September 19 2011 22:15 GMT
#1895
Out of curiosity, is Stephano considered a minor (if so if he is still under the protection of his guardian), or is he now a legal adult?

zhurai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States5660 Posts
September 19 2011 22:16 GMT
#1896
On September 20 2011 07:15 nooboon wrote:
Out of curiosity, is Stephano considered a minor (if so if he is still under the protection of his guardian), or is he now a legal adult?


he's 18.... so he's a legal adult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority)
Twitter: @zhurai | Site: http://zhurai.com
gulbanana
Profile Joined March 2011
Australia56 Posts
September 19 2011 22:16 GMT
#1897
On September 20 2011 07:14 ZestyPickle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:14 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:38 ZestyPickle wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:36 Kaedeleus wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:32 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:28 Chargelot wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:

Stephano signs contract with col

Stephano change his mind

coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it

Stephano and mil look like idiots

case closed


All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


.....
I don't understand why people like this get involved in the conversation, if they are so willfully ignorant that they don't understand the purpose or intents of a -- any -- business.

You can't sign a contract, and then in less than a day after it's made public decline to follow through with your LEGAL obligations. It is illegal..

this contract was not valid and did not confer any legal obligations. it wasn't even in french, let alone in the valid form of a contract of employment.


Finally someone says something true, the contract is not valid in the eyes of the law, we must not look any further


No. You have no idea of the actual wording, and I guarantee you that if he signed his name, regardless of whatever the fuck was written down he will be held accountable for something.

on what basis are you making this guarantee?


US Law. Go look it up. Please. Its valid in the US.

united states corporations do not have the ability to apply u.s. labour law to french citizens working in france. nor do they want that ability, because of the precedent it would set for expatriates and temp-visa immigrants.
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
September 19 2011 22:16 GMT
#1898
On September 20 2011 07:14 Otolia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 07:12 Cyrak wrote:
If this situations turns out to be as it appears once the dust has settled I think it'd be great if IPL revoked Stephano's spot in the finals. Since contracts with players seem to be absolutely meaningless it lies with the tournament organizers to enforce a set of standards for the SC2 'industry.'

Day by day I think the foreign scene is learning why KESPA was actually a good idea.

I've got a better idea. Let's just kill Stephano and launch a nuclear missile on France. Paris would be good. Too much assholes there.

Totalitarianism makes me giggle.


I find it funny that your society (or perhaps it's just you) is so primitive that abiding an agreement that you willingly enter into is considered 'totalitarianism.'
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
ZestyPickle
Profile Joined July 2011
United States104 Posts
September 19 2011 22:16 GMT
#1899
On September 20 2011 07:15 Cyrak wrote:
Is there anyone with actual legal knowledge in this thread (ie: not high school armchair internet lawyers) who can shed some light on whether complexity could sue in US court to bar Stephano from getting any gaming related VISA to the US for tournaments?


They can sue for punitive damages because of a breach of content, they wont be able to bar him from the US probably but defiantly levy monetary compensation or tournament entry restrictions perhaps.
Kieofire
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1809 Posts
September 19 2011 22:17 GMT
#1900
On September 20 2011 07:13 gulbanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 20 2011 06:38 keioh wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:33 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:28 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:26 gulbanana wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:23 zhurai wrote:
On September 20 2011 06:22 Tanith wrote:
what a loads of stupid drama this has became, how this should of gone whether the contract is legal or not:

Stephano signs contract with col

Stephano change his mind

coL say fuck it, if he change his mind so easily and shits on us this way we don't want or need him, we lost a months worth of negotiations its sucks get over it

Stephano and mil look like idiots

case closed


All this legal, lawsuit blah blah blah fucking zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

you forgot

now people don't care about contracts because they can just "change their mind"
do you somehow genuinely think that people shouldn't be allowed to quit their job? what century are you from?

do you somehow genuinely think that people should just sign a _legal contract_ and be allowed to just say "fuck it I don't need to do it lolololol"
what century are you from?
stephano did not sign a legal contract. he signed something a jumped-up american idiot thought would bind him under Texas law. doesn't work that way, and no french court would extradite him for it.


So a legally binding contract is not a legal contract ? Shit, world doesn't make sense anymore. Hate will prevail as usual.

it wasn't a legally binding contract. there's more to making a contract legally binding than a piece of paper, some words, and a signature. those words must have valid form, and legitimate function.


If it has the signature of the person who agrees to it then it is legally binding, what do you not understand?
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