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On September 20 2011 03:56 Darpa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:50 Fionn wrote:On September 20 2011 03:48 Chill wrote:
I'm glad col is taking a stand. It was starting to look like contracts in SC2 were meaningless. Are you under contract with TeamLiquid? What if an Arabian upstart e-sports community/team wanted you and would buy you in piles of gold? It wouldnt matter, a contract is a contract. In hockey for example, new draft picks are signed to an entry level contract for 3 years. They are routinely offered millions of dollars by the KHL to play in Russia. They dont break it, because they cant. It is a legal document and you can be sued for breaking it. If you get offered tons after you sign a contract that simply means you signed for less than you were worth, and thats nobodys fault but your own. I honestly hope complexity sues millenium and wins.
Since you bring up hockey and russia, you should also know there have been players that have breached their contracts and gone to Russia without tangible repercussions. This when nhl and khl couldn't come to an agreement about transfer costs and such. And as far as I know no such agreement exists in the international SC2 scene. How exactly do you prevent a player from changing teams, with or without contract? Maybe they can get him banned from some tournaments but I hardly think these "contracts" are worth much more than the paper they are written on. It may paint a player in a bad light and all that jazz but I don't think everyone cares about such things.
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On September 20 2011 04:04 Boblion wrote:
I love when people talk about suing and compensations when they have no clue about Law ( let alone French Law ).
Complexity is USA.
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EDIT: Saw a reply that invalidated my post. Disregard.
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On September 20 2011 04:02 Cel.erity wrote:
I don't see what could be disorienting about signing a contract with a pro team. They offer X, you accept X, sign on the dotted line. If Stephano did not read the terms correctly or changed his mind later, that is totally his fault for signing a legally binding contract. This whole situation makes him look terribly immature.
On the other hand, does Complexity really want to fight to keep Stephano around at this point? He clearly will not be happy with the team after requesting takebacksies, and what's the point of "owning" a player that doesn't even want to be a part of your organization?
Just a sad day for everyone involved.
Yea totally agree. Disorienting? What? You sign the contract and you're done, nobody is forcing you to do anything, he's not a child - dont treat him like one.
If he really did sign then he should just join CoL, you cant just sign then change your mind, take responsibility. And yea would be awkward if he's now forced to join CoL, not sure what i would do if i was complexity, on one hand i'd want to be taken seriously, but i dont want a player who doesnt wanna be on my team either.
Hopefully we can get the full story soon.
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Seems to me like Stephano is just young kid that rushed to a decision, backing out of it is not necessarily a bad thing but he should learn from this and grow with it so that his image does not suffer more.
Some of these kids have to make decisions that requires way more maturity then they currently have I am honestly not surprised that Millennium was able to "convince" him to stay.
It all sounds very fishy , good luck to CoL on resolving this issue.
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Complexity in contract / player signings upset? What a surprise!
This has been going on for years in coL, through 1.6 - source - WoW - and every other game they have supported. You'll hear a lot coming out of Jason, but within weeks I can guarantee they will be silenced when the truth comes out. It's happened before (many times) and will happen again. Complexity is a very poor example of a eSports organisation.
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Staying with millenium seems like a bad idea to me. Doesnt make any sence unless their offer is 10x what complexity offers.
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On September 20 2011 03:52 chocopaw wrote:
Whatever the case is in the drama between the teams (no comment on that) I'm disgusted by the "french player should stay in french team" argument.
For esports free from nationalism!
So true, we all like good players like Sen, Mana, Huk, Dimaga, MC, Thorzain...
Who cares about their nationalities?
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On September 20 2011 04:02 Cel.erity wrote:
I don't see what could be disorienting about signing a contract with a pro team. They offer X, you accept X, sign on the dotted line. If Stephano did not read the terms correctly or changed his mind later, that is totally his fault for signing a legally binding contract. This whole situation makes him look terribly immature.
On the other hand, does Complexity really want to fight to keep Stephano around at this point? He clearly will not be happy with the team after requesting takebacksies, and what's the point of "owning" a player that doesn't even want to be a part of your organization?
Just a sad day for everyone involved.
The point is you just can't let players do this. If you let someone walk out of their contract whats to stop Minigun or Cruncher or Cats from doing the same thing? if they just let him go it sets a bad precedent for other players and teams.
We all know he wont be happy on CoL, but his happiness isnt the point, he signed a damn contract and you have to honor the things you sign.
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On September 20 2011 04:04 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 04:03 WArped wrote:On September 20 2011 03:58 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 03:56 Vul wrote:
I think part of the problem is that Stephano does not speak English, iirc. It is easy to see how he could be misinformed or confused, given that.
What is clear is that he signed with complexity for some reason and then got cold feet. Who knows why he didn't end up wanting to honor his contract with coL, it could just be guilt/loyalty to a French team.
But I'm not sure if he even knows that this has gone public yet, because I doubt he reads this forum or coL's website (again, probably not reading English websites).
He may be under the impression that it is okay for him to back out of the contract (since Millenium is probably telling him that it is alright and what he should do, etc.). If that's the case, he probably didn't know until after he backed out from signing with complexity that it would be a major shit storm.
Of course I am just conjecturing, but I'm conjecturing under what I think is a valid assumption. I think Millenium is looking out for Millenium and Complexity is looking out for Complexity. And in the middle you have Stephano who probably did not entirely understand the situation, or did not communicate properly with the right parties, probably because he doesn't speak English.
I think Naniwa was just joking about Stephano doing this for the money. But it's clear to me that a move this bad wouldn't be calculated. Bottom line is Stephano fucked up hard, but it really doesn't seem like it was on purpose. But really we just have to wait for more information before anything can be said for certain. Why? I bet he's making more money than he was before. Are you suggesting Stephano thought, "Hey how about I sign a contract with another team to blackmail my way into more money with Millenium"? No. Why not? Happens all the damn time. Well except for the signing part. he goofed up that part.
Any examples of it happening in SC2's history?
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On September 20 2011 04:05 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 04:04 Medrea wrote:On September 20 2011 04:03 WArped wrote:On September 20 2011 03:58 Jinivus wrote:On September 20 2011 03:56 Vul wrote:
I think part of the problem is that Stephano does not speak English, iirc. It is easy to see how he could be misinformed or confused, given that.
What is clear is that he signed with complexity for some reason and then got cold feet. Who knows why he didn't end up wanting to honor his contract with coL, it could just be guilt/loyalty to a French team.
But I'm not sure if he even knows that this has gone public yet, because I doubt he reads this forum or coL's website (again, probably not reading English websites).
He may be under the impression that it is okay for him to back out of the contract (since Millenium is probably telling him that it is alright and what he should do, etc.). If that's the case, he probably didn't know until after he backed out from signing with complexity that it would be a major shit storm.
Of course I am just conjecturing, but I'm conjecturing under what I think is a valid assumption. I think Millenium is looking out for Millenium and Complexity is looking out for Complexity. And in the middle you have Stephano who probably did not entirely understand the situation, or did not communicate properly with the right parties, probably because he doesn't speak English.
I think Naniwa was just joking about Stephano doing this for the money. But it's clear to me that a move this bad wouldn't be calculated. Bottom line is Stephano fucked up hard, but it really doesn't seem like it was on purpose. But really we just have to wait for more information before anything can be said for certain. Why? I bet he's making more money than he was before. Are you suggesting Stephano thought, "Hey how about I sign a contract with another team to blackmail my way into more money with Millenium"? No. Why not? Happens all the damn time. Well except for the signing part. he goofed up that part. Where? Never heard of it happening in Starcraft.
Literally everywhere the word contract has been used.
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On September 20 2011 03:56 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:55 gulati wrote:On September 20 2011 03:50 Fionn wrote:On September 20 2011 03:48 Chill wrote:
I'm glad col is taking a stand. It was starting to look like contracts in SC2 were meaningless. Are you under contract with TeamLiquid? What if an Arabian upstart e-sports community/team wanted you and would buy you in piles of gold? Dude... STOP thinking that Stephano was born without a brain! CONTRACTS have risks and rewards. Stephano did not have a fucking gun held to his head. He acted under his best interests. Let me give you a fucking example: If you sell a card collection of baseball cards, which you bought for $1, and you sell them for $20, you made a 20x profit. You are happy. Congrats. NOW, say fifteen minutes later, an appraiser brings $1,000,000,000 CASH for your cards, and begs you for them back. YOU CANNOT BUY BACK YOUR CARDS. Follow fucking litigation. Stop with this nonsense, PLEASE. Actually, you can buy back your cards. The key word though, is BUY BACK.
No, you can not buy back your cards. UNLESS the possessor of the cards is willing to SELL them.
In this case, the cards are being held (Stephano) by compLexity (possessor). There is a contract withholding him (locked down by possessor). They are NOT for resale. Unless you can match the offer (pay $1,000,000,000 for him, AKA the amount that Millennium is paying to retain him for 12 months). Other than that, there is no legal rights that Millennium has in this instance, unless some bizarre contractual term was signed by compLexity for this acquisition, and I have full faith that compLexity was not stupid enough to allow a situation like this to occur without having reparations.
Sorry man, but there is no if's, and's, or but's about this. Millennium has to pay a fee for purchasing Stephano from compLexity.
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On September 20 2011 03:26 havox_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:17 tofubeans wrote:Update:
Within the last hour Team Millennium announced that Stephano was remaining with their organization despite the fact he executed a legally binding contract with compLexity. We are extremely disappointed by this turn of events are are seeking more information while we evaluate our legal options with French counsel. By no means do we want a player who does not want to be part of our organization but we can not simply allow players and organizations to completely disrespect the legal contractual process that ensures stability in our evolving sport. http://www.complexitygaming.com/news/3126/#He did sign a contract. ifthis is really true, i actually hope that he a) gets sued or b) at least will be banned from leagues =) sounds harsh, but how else to let kids grow up? Do we want this to be a real, pro sport or not?
"How else to get kids grow up"? How about educate them better on the subject of professional teams and contracts. This way teams won't be able to poach players so easily.
Or get personal player agents, but who really wants them coming in and taking a slice of the pie?
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http://www.vvv-gaming.com/forum/topic/46628-losers-bracket-round-48/
Jerith posted this upthread, but I'm going to repost because it is decently illuminating. Sounds like the contract that Titan signed was shoddy - seems like they took an old contract and re-worked it for Titan, thus making it oddly worded and potentially not valid. That doesn't mean Stephano's was similarly shoddy, but who knows.
The lawyer also says that it would be near impossible to enforce a contract with a European party - arbitration might be possible but yeah.
Of course Jerith himself doesn't seem to be too into contracts. Keep in mind, contracts can help players as well. I'm not sure if vvv's players are contracted, but the recent kerfluffle over their not providing travel money to their players after (what they perceived as) poor performances at MLG shows that a naive ideology of "brotherhood" doesn't cut it either.
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On September 20 2011 04:04 Boblion wrote:
I love when people talk about suing and compensations when they have no clue about Law ( let alone French Law ).
Bad PR for everyone but nothing will happen.
Are you talking about coL or the TL posters?
I believe Jason Lake is a former attorney, or at least worked in the field...
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Canada1637 Posts
The techniques used by Complexity to recruit Stephano were quite disorienting to influence our young player towards a bad decision. After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months
I'd love to hear more about these "techniques"... did they throw him in a big potato sac and beat him with phonebooks to disorient him?
Seriously though, I hope this is a lesson to ALL players out there, contracts aren't a joke, please take this shit seriously.
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On September 20 2011 04:02 Cel.erity wrote:
I don't see what could be disorienting about signing a contract with a pro team. They offer X, you accept X, sign on the dotted line. If Stephano did not read the terms correctly or changed his mind later, that is totally his fault for signing a legally binding contract. This whole situation makes him look terribly immature.
On the other hand, does Complexity really want to fight to keep Stephano around at this point? He clearly will not be happy with the team after requesting takebacksies, and what's the point of "owning" a player that doesn't even want to be a part of your organization?
Just a sad day for everyone involved.
This is kinda the dilemma with e-sports now though. I can only think of rare occassions, if any, where it'd actually be worth sueing a player for an e-sport organsiation. But on the other hand, if you never set down the foot and show the community that this is not tolerated, what stops contracts from being utterly pointless from the beginning? In the end you're left with teams who can't be sure they have their players left next week, which is going to do nothing but kill one team after another.
Point being, teams need to make a stand and can't let stuff like this slip away IMO. As long as it's not too costly I'd love to see legal action being taken, or at least attempted. Might even consider taking legal action even if it hurts economically or eventually more players might feel inclined to just spit on their current contracts and just go to whoever bids the highest this week.
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On September 20 2011 03:58 Merfyn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:57 XRaDiiX wrote:On September 20 2011 03:51 Noxie wrote:
They did the exact same thing with vVvTitan. Care to Elaborate? Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 03:33 LordJerith wrote:
We had a similar issue last year with vVv Titan. We brought a lawyer on board to discuss the validity of Complexity's contracts. You can listen to that show right HERE.
I recommend anyone interested take a listen. Here is a brief synopsis of the show:
"When questions arise about contracts and competitive gaming, The Loser's Bracket turns to attorney Graham Claybrook for advice. Starcraft player vVv Titan explains his recent contractual dealings with another gaming organization (we will leave them anonoymous to protect the guilty) and Graham helps us to understand our legal rights as well as how players can protect themselves. "
The Loser's Bracket Podcast
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there you go.
does anyone have a link?
Edit: too slow again
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I don't get it
when TSL coach was saying that he is dissapointed with EG "stealing" his player: there was a huge fire (I mean drama) on forums
now neither coL, nor Millenium are arguing with each other and all I see is the same fire on forums as before
guys chillax and wait for updates
I remember reading an article after the TSL/EG "drama"...it was either DJWheat or Scott Smith....I don't quite remember who it was
but the main thing was "media can lie, don't rush with conclusions"
so chill! there's no drama, no law suits are being thrown yet (<-- that's a very important word) and y'all go: "OMG STEPHANO YOU'RE IN BIG TROUBLE"
just wait and see and please don't make the fire bigger
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On September 20 2011 04:05 Klaent wrote:
Staying with millenium seems like a bad idea to me. Doesnt make any sence unless their offer is 10x what complexity offers.
Millenium will send him to Korea and MLG, Millenium will probably get a team house in France, Millenium is French organisation for easy communication and Millenium got a stronger line up as CoL so ?
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EPT
