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Do you macro like a pro? - Page 45

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Cirqueenflex
Profile Joined October 2010
499 Posts
September 25 2011 00:16 GMT
#881
i noticed a huge difference between using the formula with the total average of your income/unspend ressources and using it on each replay and getting the average of the results. So one or two really "bad games" were ruining the whole static (as having an overproportional influence over the total numbers). Funny enough, those "bad games" were games i easily won (being a zerg) by containing a terran on two bases while having every freaking expansion on the map and waiting for his final push to come out so i can crush it, remax on banelings and roll him over (since i have had bad experiences running into a terran defense who didn't just lose his army). So there is 5-10 minutes me sitting on 3-5k ressources, waiting for him to suicide

also having an average of <400 unspend ressources seems to give you unproportional good results compared to the 400-2000 unspend ressources range even when considering logarithmic scaling
Give a man a fire, you keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Brandish
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States339 Posts
September 25 2011 00:31 GMT
#882
Finally, a metric other than winning matches for skill at sc2
very interesting read.

just did my last 15 games and my average SQ is 66, seems accurate
DarthLeader
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada123 Posts
September 25 2011 00:32 GMT
#883
Incredible ! Thanks a lot ! The math makes it look like you are an engineer
You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
Jacobs Ladder
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1705 Posts
September 25 2011 01:57 GMT
#884
I'm sure this has been mentioned, but I'll say it anyway. The workers constructed statistic is misleading. I diamond you don't need to construct as many workers as you do in GM. The reason is simple, GM players are much better at harassing. You'll see GM games where a zerg makes 160 workers and end the game with 65, if a Diamond player did that they would end the game with 140 supply of workers fighting a colossus.
Joey Wheeler
Profile Joined July 2011
Korea (North)276 Posts
September 25 2011 02:06 GMT
#885
Not impressive at all. Seems like the age of esports that need mechanics is over.
Revelatus
Profile Joined July 2011
United States183 Posts
September 25 2011 03:08 GMT
#886
Good read but I feel stupid now xD
caяp diєм
FlamingTurd
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1059 Posts
September 25 2011 03:15 GMT
#887
Wow, seriously OP I don't know how you did that still, even after reading your explanations...
Nerf MMMT!!! Liquid`Ret Hwaiting!!!
KillerPlague
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1386 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-25 03:18:46
September 25 2011 03:16 GMT
#888
seriously confused at the game with 150 workers... thats like 50 supply worth of army. also surprised terran make more workers on average than protoss. i would think with mules, they would require the fewest amount of workers. zerg obviously need the most, because they lose them to buildings.
Side 1: Why no dominant players with 90% win ratio Side 2: Nerf Side 1
SDream
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Brazil896 Posts
September 25 2011 04:13 GMT
#889
On September 25 2011 12:16 KillerPlague wrote:
seriously confused at the game with 150 workers... thats like 50 supply worth of army. also surprised terran make more workers on average than protoss. i would think with mules, they would require the fewest amount of workers. zerg obviously need the most, because they lose them to buildings.


Everyone loses some drones to harass I guess, maybe some zerg made mass spine crawlers? It could be.
SpaceYeti
Profile Joined June 2010
United States723 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-25 07:53:57
September 25 2011 07:34 GMT
#890
To the people who are calculating their SQs and comparing them to the proposed means for each league in the OP, a few caveats:

1) The means in the OP are ROUGH estimates, taking data from single divisions and using small sample sizes. To truly be confident in the estimates of SQ for each league we would require THOUSANDS of subjects from each league.
2) The "ruler" metric in the OP does not show the standard error of those means, which given the small sample size is quite wide. If you are going to compare given the data in the OP, compare to the histograms and note that these are rough estimates constructed from 100 players in a single division of each league.
3) As noted in the OP and by several others, efficient spending is only one of many aspects of good game play, albeit a very important one. This metric does nothing to represent your micro, strategy, scouting, or decision making. These variables and others may significantly affect your overall skill as a player apart from efficient macro.

That being said, this metric is excellent for gauging an individual's progress over time as they practice and refine their macro mechanics. If you are going to use this metric, however, I recommend taking averages from blocks of at least 10-20 games, computing means and errors, and using an appropriate statistical test to compared blocks of games. There is a good deal of variability between games from even a single player, as was also noted in the OP, and this will be especially true of players who are practicing their macro mechanics.
Behavior is a function of its consequences.
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
September 25 2011 10:42 GMT
#891
This allows to measure the SQ of AI compared to SQ of real people (which doesn't mean the AI isn't terrible in general, only says about its spending efficiency). The SQ of Very Hard AI is around 70-80, which is diamond / low masters. The SQ of Hard AI however is below 40, so low Bronze.
(measuring Insane AI isn't worth it, because it doesn't use the same scale for gathering)
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
Nurfie
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden24 Posts
September 25 2011 13:25 GMT
#892
Holy crabs my macro is bad. I'm low-mid masters and i got the SQ of gold-platinum.
Guess i need to work on those injects...
Apom
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
France656 Posts
September 25 2011 14:07 GMT
#893
On September 25 2011 19:42 figq wrote:
This allows to measure the SQ of AI compared to SQ of real people (which doesn't mean the AI isn't terrible in general, only says about its spending efficiency). The SQ of Very Hard AI is around 70-80, which is diamond / low masters. The SQ of Hard AI however is below 40, so low Bronze.
(measuring Insane AI isn't worth it, because it doesn't use the same scale for gathering)
If I recall correctly, the very hard AI also gets a gathering bonus (6 per regular mineral, insane AI gets 7).
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-25 14:19:00
September 25 2011 14:16 GMT
#894
Hmm just looked at a random 22 minute game I played, U=849, I=1927, IQ =96.37. Makes sense to me, since I play protoss so macro is not that hard, and macro/tactics have always been my strong point. My micro and multitasking not so much . Actually my micro is pretty damn abysmal.

Great post btw.

Edit - I notice my tendency is to have higher and higher IQ the longer the game goes. I'm usually low-mid 80s for things under 15mins, but as the game goes longer (assuming without long periods of positioning back and forth while maxed and thus having resources stockpile) my IQ will go up to the low-mid 90s.). Not sure if this is an intentional phenomenon or if my macro is simply better with longer games.
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 25 2011 14:41 GMT
#895
On September 25 2011 23:16 EtherealDeath wrote:
Hmm just looked at a random 22 minute game I played, U=849, I=1927, IQ =96.37. Makes sense to me, since I play protoss so macro is not that hard, and macro/tactics have always been my strong point. My micro and multitasking not so much . Actually my micro is pretty damn abysmal.

Great post btw.

Edit - I notice my tendency is to have higher and higher IQ the longer the game goes. I'm usually low-mid 80s for things under 15mins, but as the game goes longer (assuming without long periods of positioning back and forth while maxed and thus having resources stockpile) my IQ will go up to the low-mid 90s.). Not sure if this is an intentional phenomenon or if my macro is simply better with longer games.


The SQ is essentially measuring how you spend relative to how other players spend at the same level of average income. What that means is that you are spending relatively better in longer games. In an absolute sense you may be spending worse (since everybody's spending tends to get worse in longer games with higher income), but you are performing at a higher percentile rank.
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 25 2011 14:42 GMT
#896
On September 25 2011 19:42 figq wrote:
This allows to measure the SQ of AI compared to SQ of real people (which doesn't mean the AI isn't terrible in general, only says about its spending efficiency). The SQ of Very Hard AI is around 70-80, which is diamond / low masters. The SQ of Hard AI however is below 40, so low Bronze.
(measuring Insane AI isn't worth it, because it doesn't use the same scale for gathering)


Fascinating, thank you! How many games did you base those figures on?
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Khai
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia553 Posts
September 25 2011 14:58 GMT
#897
This was totally worth my time and I suddenly I feel all the econometrics I studied are somewhat useful lol. Great post, keep up the good work! Research into this area of pro player statistics would be very interesting indeed, I hope to see more of thse =)
NExt
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia1651 Posts
September 25 2011 15:15 GMT
#898
hey thanks for the article. I just did my calcs, I average 82, maxed 91.97. so i know theres room for improvement.

just wanted to say, appreciate the effort ♥
Waiting for Protoss Jesus
Zhul
Profile Joined February 2010
Czech Republic430 Posts
September 25 2011 15:39 GMT
#899
Lol man you must have been bored little bit, anyways nice job :D
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
September 25 2011 20:07 GMT
#900
On September 25 2011 23:07 Apom wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 19:42 figq wrote:
This allows to measure the SQ of AI compared to SQ of real people (which doesn't mean the AI isn't terrible in general, only says about its spending efficiency). The SQ of Very Hard AI is around 70-80, which is diamond / low masters. The SQ of Hard AI however is below 40, so low Bronze.
(measuring Insane AI isn't worth it, because it doesn't use the same scale for gathering)
If I recall correctly, the very hard AI also gets a gathering bonus (6 per regular mineral, insane AI gets 7).
You might be thinking GTAI, or similar. (Ex.) Very Hard AI is supposedly the pride of Bob Fitch..
On September 25 2011 23:42 whatthefat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 25 2011 19:42 figq wrote:
This allows to measure the SQ of AI compared to SQ of real people (which doesn't mean the AI isn't terrible in general, only says about its spending efficiency). The SQ of Very Hard AI is around 70-80, which is diamond / low masters. The SQ of Hard AI however is below 40, so low Bronze.
(measuring Insane AI isn't worth it, because it doesn't use the same scale for gathering)


Fascinating, thank you! How many games did you base those figures on?
Using Jeppes spreadsheet, so 20. Results are very consistent, because it's AI. The only huge variation may come from not accepting when the AI gg's, and just keeping it barely alive while its SQ drops.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
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