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Do you macro like a pro? - Page 44

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 42 43 44 45 46 63 Next
Panzerfaust7
Profile Joined May 2011
United States38 Posts
September 23 2011 08:22 GMT
#861
thats some real scientific stuff. cool.
If you don't try to save one life, you will never save any.
zosch
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany18 Posts
September 23 2011 10:20 GMT
#862
My SQ (62) is pretty stable across 1v1 and 2v2, vs. all races, and regardless of outcomes and game lenghts. Increasing n from 10 to 20 does not change a thing. Interesting, and many thanks to whatthefat! (Now I need to fix my micro and decision making.)
Kryt0s
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany209 Posts
September 23 2011 11:28 GMT
#863
Very good article, keep up the good work
Ballbreaker
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany97 Posts
September 23 2011 12:11 GMT
#864
Great post with an even greater analysis!

Just did the test on three games I recently played. Here are the results:
- 86
- 102
- 92
(average is 93)

Was surprised about the results, but I think my macro is pretty stable (I am a master player that beats Grandmaster players every now and then).
"Life is like a box of chocolate. You never know what you are going to get." -Forest Gump
gulzar
Profile Joined August 2011
Israel5 Posts
September 23 2011 15:48 GMT
#865
this is fascinating!
please publish the data from which you devised the research, so we can do our own exploring
watch my master level zerg stream
MyLastSerenade
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany710 Posts
September 23 2011 15:50 GMT
#866
interesting post... i will clac my SQ when i start laddering tomorrow or sunday and see where i am. Blizz placed me in Diamond, lets see where my macro is
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 23 2011 16:21 GMT
#867
On September 23 2011 06:42 Buddhist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2011 05:37 whatthefat wrote:
On September 22 2011 09:26 Gantz.z wrote:
Idra's economy management is actually quite good in long MACRO games...Which is indicative of him as a great macro oriented player. Averaging about 20 games of his that were over 10min gave me an average of 99 SQ. I think the OP should consider a little revision. The OP insinuates that Idra is not as good a macro player as is blatantly obvious from his tournament records and replays. Which is quite misleading indeed. I don't like mud being thrown on any progamers play style.


I have no idea what you are talking about. Nowhere did I insinuate that IdrA is not a good macro player. On the contrary, I emphasized that he has an extremely high SQ score, and that he is renowned for his macro skills. I suggest you take the time to read the article properly, and focus on making better quality posts in future.

He definitely misread or misinterpreted what you said, but I don't think the quality of his post was lacking. He gave more interesting information ("20 games of his that were over 10min gave me an average of 99 SQ").


I'd very much like to see the data from which that was calculated, and the SQ value for games shorter than 10 minutes for the same time period. For Grandmaster league as a whole, there is no detectable correlation between game duration and SQ.

[image loading]

As you can see, the best fit line has a small negative gradient, but the correlation is extremely weak (r^2 = 0.02). I don't have game duration data for IdrA, but I do have spending data for 30 ladder games of his in which income was greater than 600. From those I found no significant effect of income on his average SQ score.

Average SQ values

Income 600-1200 (9 games): 86 (standard error = 3)
Income 1200-1800 (12 games): 90 (standard error = 2)
Income >1800 (9 games): 88 (standard error = 2)
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
Robinsa
Profile Joined May 2009
Japan1333 Posts
September 23 2011 16:21 GMT
#868
Interesting analasys. I would love to see this with some background attached. Lets remake this study in 2 years and see how much the grandmasters have improved their macro.

As for the scale SQ. I think its very hard to judge macro with it since it has to do with when players leave their games and not. For example, a bronze players is proboably more likely to stay in a lost game than a grandmaster player hence getting a lower "average" spending in the game. This also explains why Idra is so much ahead of the average GM. :D

On top of that a player like Idra is much more likely to win his game compared to an average diamond player and there for will get a higher score due to always being in a favorable position. (Being able to expand freely etc..)

I proboably have a lot of flaws in my thought process but this is what I came to think of when I read the post. Youve put a lot of work into it though. Good job.
4649!!
whatthefat
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States918 Posts
September 23 2011 16:21 GMT
#869
On September 23 2011 08:33 Klogon wrote:
Happy Birthday. I just happened upon this post and it's really awesome. Mad props


Thank you, sir!
SlayerS_BoxeR: "I always feel sorry towards Greg (Grack?) T_T"
pStar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
996 Posts
September 23 2011 16:40 GMT
#870
Wow this is fantastic.

My average across 3 recent games that i played was 62.
Not bad for a silver
c0ldfusion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States8293 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 16:55:30
September 23 2011 16:51 GMT
#871
On September 24 2011 01:21 Robinsa wrote:
As for the scale SQ. I think its very hard to judge macro with it since it has to do with when players leave their games and not. For example, a bronze players is proboably more likely to stay in a lost game than a grandmaster player hence getting a lower "average" spending in the game. This also explains why Idra is so much ahead of the average GM. :D

On top of that a player like Idra is much more likely to win his game compared to an average diamond player and there for will get a higher score due to always being in a favorable position. (Being able to expand freely etc..)


I think this "bias" is largely accounted for since both income and unspent resources are taken into consideration.

So the scenario that would cause this measurement of macro to be off would be if you lost most of your production facilities but are still mining at a high rate. In general, I would argue that the time between your opponent taking out your production facilities and stopping your mining (if it even occurs in that order) is small in 1v1 games.

Anyway, thanks OP for the great analysis.
c0ldfusion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States8293 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-23 16:54:51
September 23 2011 16:54 GMT
#872
::Double post:: Sorry! =p
JohnnySC
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada19 Posts
September 23 2011 17:57 GMT
#873
I think its unfair to compare GM with the other leagues. They run into the same people constantly and know their opponents play style, knowing full well that there is no rush coming (especially in idras case). Diamond to Masters don't get the luxury of bumping into the same people over and over again. =/
I'm grandmaster
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
September 23 2011 18:06 GMT
#874
On September 22 2011 10:53 Vies wrote:
I was calculating my SQ hoping to find that my macro was awful and I needed to improve..

Only to find that my SQ is 79 and I am only in Platinum... There must be something I am doing very horribly that I am still unaware of hmmm.

My personal SC aside, this Macro research is not only brilliant but one of the most intelligent posts I've seen on TL since I've been here. It's people like you that make this community great.


Keeping money low is only a small portion of what's considered "macro" in SC2.

Are you constantly making scvs (because you could have more income than you actually do when you play)? Are you making out of your production facilities efficiently and not queuing? Do you understand good timings for throwing down additional production facilities? Are you missing larva injects? Are you keeping chrono energy low?
powerade = dragoon blood
djbhINDI
Profile Joined June 2011
United States372 Posts
September 23 2011 21:03 GMT
#875
Wow, epic post.
You can't emphasize enough how much you need to be a paradigm shifter. - Savior
Sectorix
Profile Joined December 2010
Israel40 Posts
September 24 2011 00:11 GMT
#876
someone should write an sc2gears plugin that calculates your SQ if thats possible
better burn out than fade away.
paviad
Profile Joined August 2010
Israel2 Posts
September 24 2011 15:32 GMT
#877
On September 24 2011 03:06 chenchen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 22 2011 10:53 Vies wrote:
I was calculating my SQ hoping to find that my macro was awful and I needed to improve..

Only to find that my SQ is 79 and I am only in Platinum... There must be something I am doing very horribly that I am still unaware of hmmm.

My personal SC aside, this Macro research is not only brilliant but one of the most intelligent posts I've seen on TL since I've been here. It's people like you that make this community great.


Keeping money low is only a small portion of what's considered "macro" in SC2.

Are you constantly making scvs (because you could have more income than you actually do when you play)? Are you making out of your production facilities efficiently and not queuing? Do you understand good timings for throwing down additional production facilities? Are you missing larva injects? Are you keeping chrono energy low?


IMO the most direct measure of macro is indeed the "keeping your money low" metric, since all the other factors you mentioned are just ways for you to spend money faster.
Dakota69
Profile Joined March 2011
United States51 Posts
September 24 2011 17:36 GMT
#878
This is really cool, if this develops into an actual science it would be interesting to see SQ alongside win rates in the GSL or other tournaments.
"My nipples are hard, I'm ready..I know your nipples are hard"--EGiNcontrol
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
September 24 2011 23:14 GMT
#879
Very very impressive work. Obviously this measures only one portion of skill, but still I think this is definitely a solid rubric. I used my last 40 games and came up with 82. I'm high masters and just came back after a 3 week break.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
NasKe_
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil570 Posts
September 24 2011 23:28 GMT
#880
Jesus
My SQ is 74

Feels so good
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