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United States360 Posts
EMP isn't even 100% of the problem. Terran just has more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech and more powerful Area-of-Effect crowd-control options than the other two races COMBINED
AoE for Toss:
1 Colossus
2 HT
3 Archon
Zerg
1 Baneling
2 Ultra (LOL)
3 Infestor
Terran
1 EMP
2 Nuke
3 HSM
4 Hellion
5 SeigeTank
6 Thor (AA)
7 PF
Check this out: Every single Factory unit has an AOE attack, The barracks has 2 AOE attacks available (from 1 unit), And thei freaking BASE can be upgraded with an AoE attack. The starport has an AoE available. And on top of that, all their units (Except the banshee and maruader?) have smart-fire which is about a hair away from being as good as AoE for crowd control.
Zerg has NO smart-fire units, mostly melee units and horrible AoE units.
Toss has melee and No smart fire, except for the immortal. Though, their AoE units are awesome.
So, anytime it turns into mass vs mass combat - which is almost any SC2 game...Terran SHOULD be at an advantage.
User was warned for this post
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On September 19 2011 06:06 Reithan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 05:17 Slusher wrote:On September 19 2011 03:51 Slusher wrote:On September 19 2011 03:14 Reithan wrote:
Terran IS the most played race, at very least on the pro scene, I'm pretty sure I've seen stats saying it was most played on ladder as well.
Also, this argument that balance only matters at the highest levels is a fallacy of the highest order.
Just because you saw a master martial artist beat 5 guys with guns in a fight using only a spoon, doesn't mean spoons are balanced against guns. Actually if it happens multiple time over the course of time, it does. In fact because it is one on five, one maybe would draw the conclusion that spoons are overpowered vs guns. The only way this would not be the case is if the guys were terrible with guns (Bronze league), then your master league player is simply beating up on noobs and this situation is not a statement about balance at all. Or it happened once it could just be a fluke, Idra loses games on ladder. I implore you to expand, An insult does not make a counter argument. It's just that the entire logic and every point of your post was entirely wrong and flawed. If something is better than something else at a given task, then it is better. The skill of the user can modify the RESULTS of the task, but better tools are better tools. A gun is better for killing people than a spoon. Just because you have a trained killer use a spoon to kill a HUNDRED people with so skills, doesn't change the fact.
And thus you have dis-proven, your own original point. An argument is using at least 1 parenthetical to support a conclusion, in this case the original quote states:
-if you see a master martial artist beat 5 guys with a spoon
-and we know he was more skilled than the shooters
then, balance at the highest level is bullshit.
however I think we can all agree that balancing a master league player (our martial arts expert) vs. some bronze league noobs (the men with guns) is less balance and more handicap. So I simply took your premise and applied it to a situation in which balance could be considered.
-If said martial arts expert were to defeat 5 equal skilled opponents spoon vs. guns.
-5 people in a fight is better than 1
then, using a spoon must be overpowered, because he won 1 v 5. unless of course as I mentioned, the skill gap was too great to consider them on even footing. Which would make this situation not even about balance in the first place. But if it isn't about balance in the first place then it would be impossible to draw your conclusion from your premise.
Please refrain from flaming people when you are the one with no point.
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On September 19 2011 06:24 Reithan wrote:
EMP isn't even 100% of the problem. Terran just has more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech and more powerful Area-of-Effect crowd-control options than the other two races COMBINED
AoE for Toss:
1 Colossus
2 HT
3 Archon
Zerg
1 Baneling
2 Ultra (LOL)
3 Infestor
Terran
1 EMP
2 Nuke
3 HSM
4 Hellion
5 SeigeTank
6 Thor (AA)
7 PF
Check this out: Every single Factory unit has an AOE attack, The barracks has 2 AOE attacks available (from 1 unit), And thei freaking BASE can be upgraded with an AoE attack. The starport has an AoE available. And on top of that, all their units (Except the banshee and maruader?) have smart-fire which is about a hair away from being as good as AoE for crowd control.
Zerg has NO smart-fire units, mostly melee units and horrible AoE units.
Toss has melee and No smart fire, except for the immortal. Though, their AoE units are awesome.
So, anytime it turns into mass vs mass combat - which is almost any SC2 game...Terran SHOULD be at an advantage.
I would like to challenge this idea a little bit, because while the options are there, just consider that all of those splash damages are pretty conditional. For instance,
-How often are nukes used in your large engagements? Possibly more, but not that much
-How often are hunter seeker missiles used? High energy cost, high resource cost for its unit
-Hellions only do lots of good, splash damage to specific units, so I'd say they're a little more situational
-Planetary Fortresses rarely participate in large army-army conflicts
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with the options you've presented but it's very rare that you're going to see A terran rushing an enemy with a simultaneous PF attack, EMP, nuke, Hunter seeker missile, sieged tank, hellion, thor mix. That's just not a practical application. I feel like you're moreso pointing out that Terran's AOE options are spread out through more tech routes, making AoE attacks more accessible in a greater variety of armies.
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United States360 Posts
@Slusher, rhetoric is not better than sense.
@ShamTao, yes, that's what I'm saying.
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Neural Parasite is hard to play around with imo, but I am not that angry about the nerf, considering they were going to make it not be able to target massive units...
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On September 19 2011 07:21 ShamTao wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 06:24 Reithan wrote:
EMP isn't even 100% of the problem. Terran just has more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech and more powerful Area-of-Effect crowd-control options than the other two races
<snip> I would like to challenge this idea a little bit... <snip>Terran's AOE options are... more accessible in a greater variety of armies.
Not to be obtuse, but -- Did I miss something, or did you just restate his main point?
"more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech" != "more accessible"?
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On September 19 2011 08:45 Dayrlan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2011 07:21 ShamTao wrote:On September 19 2011 06:24 Reithan wrote:
EMP isn't even 100% of the problem. Terran just has more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech and more powerful Area-of-Effect crowd-control options than the other two races
<snip> I would like to challenge this idea a little bit... <snip>Terran's AOE options are... more accessible in a greater variety of armies. Not to be obtuse, but -- Did I miss something, or did you just restate his main point? "more numerous, easier to use, easier to tech" != "more accessible"?
You didn't miss anything. That is exactly what he just said.
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I like how they make ridiculous changes so people get upset, then people are happy about less extreme changes? Zerg already has extremely slow and short range units, when really the issue people had with NP stems from a lack of positioning and poor unit control. What ever happened to focusing the infestors down, using ghosts or feedback? If protoss only wanted reassurance they can 1a the laser ball to victory, they have it now.
"We believe that this change will make choices regarding positioning and unit composition more important when using the Infestor."
Huge middle finger to zerg. May as well go back to massing roaches then losing because you made too many useless corruptors.
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Reithan if I am missing your point please expand, and specifically I mean "Also, this argument that balance only matters at the highest levels is a fallacy of the highest order."
continuing to insult me without explaining your side is wearing thin on my patience. Where exactly did I leave sense at the wayside?
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United States360 Posts
Ok, let me explain it a different way. Let's try math.
If the strength of your race could be represented a number, let's call it Y, and your skill could be, as well, call it X, then for both players if you added:
X+Y
The player with the higher result should win, given some random variance based on how well they played that game, mind games, and some luck.
So, if both players skill is REALLY REALLY LOW, let's say silver league, but their skills are still the same, X1 = X2, and they both play about as well that game, then the deciding factor is only who's race is better.
The argument that "It doesn't matter till masters" just means that you have plenty of room to improve your skill (X), and that's true, but just because you can beat a race imbalance with better skill, that doesn't mean it's not affecting you.
For instance, suppose, hypothetically, that one race, let's say Protoss, just cause no one will think I'm being serious, by accident, was so much better than the others that you could skip bronze league entirely just by playing it. Like, bronze Terrans and Zergs just could NOT beat it, no matter what. (HYPERBOLE) Let's say this imbalance stays fairly constant all the way till masters.
That would mean that any Protoss in Masters would only really be Diamond, and conversely, they would be taking the places and ruining the MMRs of a lot of Terrans and Zergs, forcing them into Diamond when they should have been in Masters.
People could, even in this situation, look at it and go, "Well, it doesn't matter unless you're in Masters. There ARE Terrans and Zergs in Masters. If you just got better, you would be too."
And then what? Then you are suddenly privileged to be affected by the imbalance? That's your reward for working your way up past the imbalance, being shat on by lesser skilled players that are beating you only because of an imba race, finally improving enough to fight past a lot of them into Masters league, just for the privilege to be able to go, "Yup, the game is totally fucking imba" and people believe you?
And then if ANOTHER player agrees with you, says "You're right, it's imba! Toss is OP!", and HE'S not Masters, then the hell with him, he hasn't earned the right to PROPERLY be screwed by imbalances!
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United States360 Posts
Right now, NP is 9 cast range, with an additional 5 in which the controlled unit can move, giving an 'operational range' of 14.
If they reduce the cast range by 2, will this 'operational range' be decreased by 2 as well, making this effectively a DOUBLE nerf to NP? Or will we keep the 14 'operational range'?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
It's more balanced now.
They're balanced parasite over Ultralisk, so both are ok. Parasite now is a bit less strong, and Ultralisk built time slighty decreased. ALso, zerg got better and cheaper scouting + more changelings to kill enemy Siege tanks.
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Changelings killing tanks, news to me.
Edit: NP doesn't need nerfing. Fungal is the problem, it's simply too good.
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On September 20 2011 04:19 Existor wrote:
It's more balanced now.
They're balanced parasite over Ultralisk, so both are ok. Parasite now is a bit less strong, and Ultralisk built time slighty decreased. ALso, zerg got better and cheaper scouting + more changelings to kill enemy Siege tanks.
lol wut? NP isn't "a bit less strong" its basically useless now. Ultralisk build time is neat but the only thing it changes is Zerg isn't as incredibly vulnerable if they ever try to build Ultras, it doesn't make Ultras any better otherwise.
but wtf, how does more changelings equate to killing Siege Tanks? Do you honestly think Zergs are going to waste their Overseers trying to drop Changelings on Siege Tanks? Seriously?
Whatever, this patch pisses me off. At least I've been honing my "all-in" strats more in preparation for this patch.
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I think it´s to hard to change the range from 9 to 7.It would be nice if Blizz would decrase the range to 8 and look what effect the change has. Maybe the can decrease it then to 7 if NP would be still overpowerd. IM a zerg and find the fungal nerf OK , cause i WanT a balanced game and i know that it was too strong but in my opinion are the 2 nerfs ( fungal and NP) too hard.
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On September 19 2011 06:24 Reithan wrote:
AoE for Toss:
1 Colossus
2 HT
3 Archon
Zerg
1 Baneling
2 Ultra (LOL)
3 Infestor
Terran
1 EMP
2 Nuke
3 HSM
4 Hellion
5 SeigeTank
6 Thor (AA)
7 PF
Mutas does technicallly have AoE as well with their bounce.
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the change made it in omg sad day tt
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Couldn't even Neural parasite Siege Tanks today.
God, this is just brutal.
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The infestor now sucks, way to fuck up blizzard. 4 fungals to kill roaches, what a nerf. Disgusting. Where are the zurg buffs?
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On September 22 2011 01:21 Saltydizzle wrote:
The infestor now sucks, way to fuck up blizzard. 4 fungals to kill roaches, what a nerf. Disgusting. Where are the zurg buffs?
To be fair, Infestors should not be the turning unit in ZvZ
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EPT
