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Watching some pro games, I've seen some of players spawn up a creep tumor right as their first queen pops up, some wait till their second queen pops up, or they'll get a third queen on one of their two bases and use that solely for creep tumors.
Here is my question, what do you think is the best way to start your creep spread?
There are many ways I have gone through this and I still have not come up with what works for me. When I spread creep, it's random. I'll use overlords to connect my bases, i'll end up having 25 extra energy on my queens and use that for a tumor and start the spread from there, or i've even used a third queen and used that for multiple creep tumors to start the spread and waited until i got my third base before using that queen for my third base to inject larva. (i still have not kept a queen up solely for transfusion, i still have not once used transfusion even though i know it is a VERY useful ability)
What is your take on this subject?
If it makes any difference, I am a Gold League Zerg Player.
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Im not sure if zergs can even use all the larva a queen can give out that early. So I think the one creep tumor is a good idea.
If they can use them all then inject is better
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When I go 15hat/16pool, my first two queens finish at the same time and I'll have extra energy so I usually start 2 tumors right away. Otherwise I'll wait for the 3rd queen.
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depends really upon what your opener is for your BO. If you FE 14-15 hatch with 2 queens simultaneously probably better to use the one in your main for a creep tumor and the 2nd for larva. Just because if you double inject no way you will have the minerals or usually supply room to use all the larva efficiently in time. Plus you have to take into account how early gas you go which means less minerals etc etc etc.
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When I go hatch first , and I spawn 2 queens at once , I inject with my queen at the nat and lay a creep tumor in my main with the other. If you go double creep tumor , you wont be able to spend all your minerals
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If I go for 15hatch/15pool etc kind of opening I tend to put my tumor first so I can try to hold possible fast early attacks better. However if I open with 11 pool I favor larva so I can catch up with eco fast.
This is just my way to play it and I've been satisfied with it.
Dia Zerg here.
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If I go pool first, I get my first creep tumour when the second queen pops up to connect the main and nat.
If I hatch first, generally I use my first 25 energy to get creep tumours.
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when I FE, my expo finishes I get the queen at my expo to larva inject, and the queen from main to spawn creep.
that way the creep connects the two bases, and can then start heading out.
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It depends, if you go the 15 hatch double queen, then I usuallly lay down a creep tumor in the main. If you feel like you can make 100% pure drones however, then an inject will allow you for some quicker drones, even though you can't spend ALL your larvae. When I have a good amount of drones, say 30, I make a third queen.
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If you're doing 15 hatch, I like to use the main hatch queen for a tumor and the nat to inject. 14/14 you need to inject first and make a second queen and use that for creep tumors. Generally you want a third queen somewhere in there if you're doing a low gas build.
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as far as i know when you 15 hatch you can't spend all the larvae after the first inject, so i have seen people(and tried myself for a while) plop down a tumor to start some rad spread. day9's recent daily touches on the use of queens for injects and it's a good watch.
since you're an up and coming player, i'd concentrate on making full use of your first two queens first to get you used to maximizing their use all game long---aka keeping energy as low as you can throughout the game.
what i end up doing when i'm faced with some problems in a game (a drop or needing to scout unit comp. for example) is try and plant a macro hatchery in my main so missing injects is more forgiving.
i'd say, whenever you glance over your hatcheries and queens and notice they're piling up on extra energy, send them out to tumor at the edges, and queue-move them back to the hatch.
but devoting your entire early game, each and every game, to creep tumors isn't more important than learning to nail the injects imo. there are certain builds and situations that you'll scout which call for an earlier tumor, or an earlier inject than you would want....like say, when you scout a reactor hellion opening
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15 hatch double queen ---> 2 tumors first
14gas/14pool ---> inject first
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Depends on your build. If you have the money to spend on larva, inject. If you are broke and have no money then make a creep tumor.
All about economic management.
^_^
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This is all dependent on build orders. Opening up speedlings, I'll put a creep tumor down once my second queen pops out. Opening up 15 hatch, both queens spawn at the same time, so I will use my main queen to put down a creep tumor to connect to my expo with creep. The only reason you put up creep tumors down in your base is to make it easier to defend against harassment. If, you dont scout hellions for example, you dont need to connect your bases with creep. It is very situational.
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Dude, this is easy, Mule unless you're supply blocked.
Oh wait--this is a zerg thread!
Inject unless your mineral timing has it so you can't afford the larva.
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On September 15 2011 15:44 lorkac wrote:
Dude, this is easy, Mule unless you're supply blocked.
Oh wait--this is a zerg thread!
Inject unless your mineral timing has it so you can't afford the larva.
This isn't correct at all. You must have misread his question. He is asking about early game creep spread. You usually want to connect you Nat and your main with creep once you second queen spawns in order to be able to defend against harassment. Mineral timings have nothing to do with this because zergs will always have money to spend on their larva. The only time a zerg cant use all his larva is in the Mid/Late game when he has 4+ hatches.
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It kinda comes down to the tightness of your play. My advice is to start with something simple that makes sense and make adjustments as you see fit. Play some games with creep tumor first, and if you don't have enough larva then you can change it.
That isn't to say that you can't take some of the excellent advice others here have said. I think some people were talking about 15 hatch and using the natural queen to inject while using the main queen to tumor, and this makes sense as dual injects is probably a lot of larva for that time.
I'm not sure about the 14gas 14 pool. I think it makes sense to use the tumor first because you will be spending money on an early upgrade and a hatchery, and I'm not sure but I think some players start their second queen before their natural hatch finishes, so all that is a lot of resources spent without using larva.
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I usually go tumor first, because in my builds, I don't have enough money to support the larvae ~75% of the time. It really does depend on the build order though - the particular expansion timing I use isn't particularly mineral efficient compared to say 15hatch 14pool, but it's pretty larva efficient, so I figure "sac some larva that would otherwise be going to waste so I could connect my main to my nat."
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If I do an early hatch like 14 hatch 14 pool, I always tumor with my first queen at least.
If I do 11 overpool, whether I inject or not depends on whether my hatch goes down on time. If it goes down at 18, then that mineral drain is far too much to make units out of the larvae I would get from an inject. However if it is like zvz, where you don't expand immediately, I spend the inject. You'll have 300 minerals extra to blow on units, afterall.
I would imagine a 14 pool is similar, but then again the queen comes 25 seconds later than 11 pool, so maybe that is enough to make inject first worth it. That certainly seems to be the consensus among players better than me.
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The larva vs creep spread is much depending on how you are going to use yout tactic. If I go a econ build 15/15/15, I always spawn larva with my double queen. This is because I am to much at a dissadvantag if I am subjected to an early rush. I simply need the larva to produce units if I find that marines are coming to my nat or suddenly a bunch of lings or roaches come crashing down. A CT would spell death since I would not have larva to spawn an additional say 8 lings to my defense.
If you also time the 15x3 you should have speed on your lings right about finished when a more heavy push comes so creep is not that big of a deal then. However...
If you are going for a super economic build and place one spine instead of lings and try to defend with queens, then I will always throw down a CT in my main. Since the spine is at your nat you will have to defend with drones and your two or three queens. Queens need that creep, it is littarly a life or death situation that they can not get to the other base in time or get sniped when not teamed together. I would say that if you are going for a slow ling build or 3+ queen opener, then a CT is a must, otherwise I would only use larva inject as my first action for my queens.
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On September 15 2011 15:16 MangoTango wrote:
When I go 15hat/16pool, my first two queens finish at the same time and I'll have extra energy so I usually start 2 tumors right away. Otherwise I'll wait for the 3rd queen.
Not to insult you, but this makes no fucking sense to me. Queens start with 25 energy, and you obviously don't have injects already en route as they're your first queens, so the energy can hardly be considered "extra"
In my experience, if you time your build to get 2 queens simultaneously, inject at your nat, tumor at your main, as you almost always need at least one initial inject to not be floating money. Likewise, most of my builds have linear queen production, and I make both queens consecutively from my main hatchery.
When done this way, the first queen will inject as soon as she pops, and then the second queen will pop right before the first queen is ready to do her second inject cycle, so the new queen drops a creep tumor and walks down to the natural, where she should have enough energy to inject at the natural right about when it starts, depending on the build (going by a ~21 hatch)
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If I 14 gas/14 pool against terran, I use my first queen for energy, drop the hatch on 22 then start another queen in my main, then use that queen to drop the tumor in my base before she crawls away to the other hatch. I've seen pro's do it this way too, and seems pretty legit as on some maps, by the time she reaches the other hatch she has nearly enough energy for another inject...
If I go hatch first I pop both queen at the same time, and use them both to inject, next round of energy I have my main queen drop a tumor and depending on the situation either drop another tumor or inject. I feel comfortable when I have a little bit extra larva then I need, because then when you really need the defence, and you make a few drones, you still have larva left
I'm a mid plat player, so take this as you will 
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You know, this actually helps me A LOT!!!! if i hatch 1st, double queen, main gets tumor, nat injects. or if i pool first then expand, get 2 queens from the main and when 2nd queen pops up, get the tumor. THANK YOU!!! I've always wondered really, always wondered lol. I've learned before being promoted to silver that creep is so important because i started seeing a lot of marine/tank pushes and i need to be able to run in with banelings and zerlings to be able to defend it but I always end up losing if I did not expand creep so I end up "DANG YOU MARINE/TANK!!!!!" lol. But the games I see the marine/tank, i run in with banelings and zerglings, i easily kill off his forces and he is left wide open to a counter attack, i bust in, i win!
Then i end up getting promoted to gold in 2 weeks after my promotion to silver and now my creep spread is so much more important now than it was when i was in bronze or silver especially with the game placing me against a bunch of high level gold players and low to mid level platinum players. i'm never going to win if i do not have a good creep spread. :/
Thank you guys :D
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The only time you can debate this is when you go 14/14 or 15/15 against terran. Otherwise you have enough money to make units from the larvae. When I go hatch first vs terran I usually drop a tumor with my nat queen and a inject with my main queen. Because you get 2 queens so early on you cant sustain the production yet but the creep spread is really helpful against hellions. In both zvp and zvt I always get a third queen early on for further creepspread..
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All depends on map/matchup for me. Generally:
- ZvZ : Inject first rarely do tumors as it benefits both parties. Will use tumors if they go muta's; othewise overlords to spread creep as it can be removed after the attack.
- ZvT: Almost always 15 hatch building 2 queens at once; use tumor on my main, inject nat unless it is a 2rax.
- ZvP: Generally have later creep spread; unless I take a super fast 3rd after scouting a forge FE. The second I see the forge, I use a tumor on the main and build an extra queen. This is in hopes I have all 3 bases near connected by the time a Void Ray hits it.
I find creep spread most beneficial in ZvT as it makes the tanks start leap frogging; thus slowing down the push. It's great in ZvP but they always have an observer with their army, so I don't prioritize it. Don't get me wrong I love creep spread but it is just a nuisance to a protoss, while it is a game changer to a Terran.
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I think a simple rule of thumb is that you want as many larvae as possible that you plan to and can use. After that, extra larvae provide absolutely no utility and you're better off using your queen's energy on a creep tumor, which does help you.
This translates into play depending on your queen and hatchery timings: if you go for a 15 hatch/15 pool and two queens as soon as your pool pops, for instance, if both of those queens use those initial energy on injections you'll end up with a large surplus; best to inject with one and spread creep with another. If you go for a 14 pool/18 hatch, alternatively, and start a queen as soon as your pool finishes, you won't have enough larvae to spend your money unless that queen injects ASAP, and you'll have to wait for a second queen to start spreading creep.
Other builds have other timings, and they need to be worked out just like any other aspect of a build.
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On September 16 2011 01:04 Ipp wrote:All depends on map/matchup for me. Generally: - ZvZ : Inject first rarely do tumors as it benefits both parties. Will use tumors if they go muta's; othewise overlords to spread creep as it can be removed after the attack.
- ZvT: Almost always 15 hatch building 2 queens at once; use tumor on my main, inject nat unless it is a 2rax.
- ZvP: Generally have later creep spread; unless I take a super fast 3rd after scouting a forge FE. The second I see the forge, I use a tumor on the main and build an extra queen. This is in hopes I have all 3 bases near connected by the time a Void Ray hits it.
I find creep spread most beneficial in ZvT as it makes the tanks start leap frogging; thus slowing down the push. It's great in ZvP but they always have an observer with their army, so I don't prioritize it. Don't get me wrong I love creep spread but it is just a nuisance to a protoss, while it is a game changer to a Terran.
This man knows what he's talking about.
ZvZ: I don't use creep but I think I will start. It's most beneficial when your opponent decides he can't kill you and tries to retreat with his army. You get the extra roach volley off when he steps off creep.
ZvT: Creep spread is so important I only make 4 lings before 7:00 and get a 3rd queen to spread creep/defend against helions. The 3rd queen comes right when the queen at the natural finishes and allows for a massive amount of creep spread before the 9:00-10:00 Terran push comes. It's also useful for defending against the SlayerS BFH/Marine elevator at 8:45 since you can use 3 queens to target down the medivac and lings/queens to clean up the rest of the units in your base.
ZvP: 14/14, I'll inject with the first queen and lay a tumor with the 2nd queen (started at 21 or 22 supply, after expo hatch has gone down) on its way to the expansion. It should have close to 25 energy when the expansion finishes.
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It's first inject then a creep tumor. The reason for this is that your first inject can allow you to create early defense or more drones to boost up your second base which should be coming up or should be done and making a queen.
You want three queens. You inject the first time with the first queen.
Second is creep tumor
and the second queen's first energy is used on a creep tumor as well while you get your third queen.
The reason for the second queen creep tumor is to quick connect the bases and because you simply don't have the minerals to support your injects so quickly on.
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If you go 15 hatch then you should for sure lay a creep at your nat first. Its actually impossible to spend all that larvae at that stage.
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I wouldn't double eject as 15 hatch, and I wouldn't inject twice as 14/14 either. You can't really afford it, so you might as well as put down the tumor. I mean, you could inject twice as 14/14 and then tumor on your second queen. That can work. But again, it seems like you're just capping your hatchery's natural larvae production cycle for longer than it needs to be, since you probably wont be able to get back down to two larvae quickly.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, just base your injects on your minerals.
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if i go 14 hatch 14 pool instead of 2nd inject with the main queen ill plop a creep tumor down
if i go any other build i will build a 2nd queen at main as natural hatch is building, plop a tumor down when its done, send that queen to your natural and usually if my timing is right ill have the energy for an inject just as natural hatch finishes
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it depends on the situation. i'm assuming you are referring to 15hatch.
usually i creep tumor between main/nat w/ my queen in main and inject w/ queen @ nat, however, if i get an ol scout off on their base and see they are going react hellion, i become extremely greedy: i double inject, drone really hard then pop 2 evo chambers + spine (which finish right when their hellions get to my front door), and block w/ queen and i take a huge advantage.
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You can't support all that larva in the early game if you only inject, do an injection then tumor and then you should be able to support all injections until 3rd queen for tumors only
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Typically, just to throw out my 2 cents,
I do the following : some variation of hatch first type build w/ 2 queens coming out, I inject with both first, then depending on my scout either go double tumor with the 2nd 25 energy, or just tumor with my 2nd - 25 energy with my queen in the main, and inject with queen at the natural. I like to get the larva count up early, but also don't want to go to long without having my natural/main connected in case I need the 2nd queen down to help fend off some early pressure.
If it is a 14pool with a later hatch, I inject first still, and then tumor 2nd, then move that queen down to my natural. Shortly after my next queen usually pops in the main and I'll inject with that.
I find that I'll have just 1 tumor going early game when I have 2 queens and just spend energy injecting. Lately I've been getting a quicker 3rd queen and then dropping additional tumors with that queen. Knowing that I'll miss injects as the game goes on I personally want to start stockpiling larva as much as possible as soon as possible.
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If I open 15 hatch and get my queens at the same time I put down a creep tumor with my queen in the main and inject with the other one in my nat.
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It depends. If i see hellions coming, my natural queen gets a tumor out first, helps alot vs hellions. Otherwise just inject.
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If you go 15 hatch, then it is a good idea to spread creep with your first two queens because you will not be able to support all of the larvae you could get through the queen injects. But if it is pool first like 14/14 then use first queen as inject, and make second straight away. Use the second to make creep to your expansion and that is how you make creep
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Depends on your gas timing. For hatch first with late gas, you can spend all your larva with even with 2 injects. Faster droning = get 3rd queen for creeping.
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It's tactic dependent of course but you would be wise to use creep on main and larva on exp imo, unit/drone spawn closer to the new hatch with fewer drones, connect both base with creep and get higher vision of ramp.
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In ZvT, where I 15 Hatch/16 Pool with 2 queens simultaneously popping, I inject with one and tumor with the other (usually tumor in the main, inject at the nat, since I find that my main gets way ahead in saturation otherwise). Then on the next round, I reverse that. So, after 2 cycles, each queen has injected once and tumored once. I also get a 3rd queen that goes around planting extra tumors until it goes to my 3rd.
In ZvZ, where I speedling expo, I generally always inject until I'm feeling like we've gotten past any ling/bane shenanigans. Then I might chance a tumor. Tbh though, I don't think creep spread is terribly important in ZvZ beyond connecting your bases (which is always good), so more than one isn't really necessary in that case.
In ZvP, where I also speedling expo, I inject with the first 25 energy, tumor with the 2nd. I usually have a 2nd queen starting almost immediately, and it pops pretty much as my inject finishes, so it can do the 2nd inject and my first queen can lay the tumor.
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Rule No.1 in StarCraft:
Do things when they need to be done.
So when you need creep, spread creep. When you need larvae, spawn them.
Oftentimes you don't need creep right at the start of a game, so pumping larvae is better then.
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When I do early exp and two queens pop simultaneously, I usually inject with one and put down a creep tumor with one. Two tumors delay two base sat with too much I feel. At the same time I'm not sure if 14 larva can be produced off that early optimally (ie two injects), but I havent looked into it. I guess you can say that each tumor that early delays 4 drones with 45 seconds (iirc the injected larva spawn time). In a situation where you are on one base for some time I would definitely inject first. As the game progresses though I feel that creep is SO important and a dedicated creep queen can never go wrong (unless your macro apm suffers from the extra burden )
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Depends a lot on the matchup and what you're doing. If I opened 15 hatch and suspect hellions or banshees in ZvT I'll immediately drop a tumor in my main to connect my bases for fast queen travel but in ZvP if he fast expands I'll double inject then double tumor.
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On September 16 2011 02:16 enemy2010 wrote:
Rule No.1 in StarCraft:
Do things when they need to be done.
So when you need creep, spread creep. When you need larvae, spawn them.
Oftentimes you don't need creep right at the start of a game, so pumping larvae is better then.
That's not useful because when you realize that you NEED creep (any kind of early hellion/voidray harass), you should've started spreading it a minute before that. You've got to at least connect your main to your natural so that your queens don't get stalled in these cases, and since you often won't have enough money to use all the larvae you can produce with 2Q/2H, it makes a lot of sense to lay at least one creep tumor early game (like during your first 3 cycles).
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Hi; what's this build you guys keep talking about where 2 queens hatch at the same time?
I'm just plat so am a newb, but I've been doing 15h,14,13 (vs T), and do the 1 queen and 4(ish) lings when pool finishes (I think at 15 after overlord). That queen pops before the natural hatch is even up.
Am I missing out on a better, more economic hatch first build?
Also, if you guys have 2 queens popping at the same time but not enough money to use all the larva from 2 injects, wouldn't it be better to skip a queen and build 3 drones with that 150 min? Or are you larva blocked already anyway with that build?
Thanks!
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with hatch first, the best way: inject with queen at natural first, 1 creep tumor from main to natural with first queen at main. Then, only inject for the 2 first queens. And with 3rd and 4th, only creep tumors.
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i would say it depends on what you scout. if you see a passive player you can be safe and inject for the economic boost. but if you see something agressive (ex a 2 gate or early pool) you can throw down the creep to make your lings and queens more effective.
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EPT
