EPTYou can try drops, you can try mutas but they are just as susceptible to mass snipe. I think the problem is that snipe targets biological and everything zerg has is biological making ghost the counter to virtually everything zerg has. If mech is the counter to speedling/baneling, and ghost is the counter to practically everything else, I think it may have been a very bad decision for blizzard to buff the ghosts cost to 200/100.
Analysis: The Reasoning Behind MVP's Ghosts - Page 3
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emc
United States3088 Posts
You can try drops, you can try mutas but they are just as susceptible to mass snipe. I think the problem is that snipe targets biological and everything zerg has is biological making ghost the counter to virtually everything zerg has. If mech is the counter to speedling/baneling, and ghost is the counter to practically everything else, I think it may have been a very bad decision for blizzard to buff the ghosts cost to 200/100. | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:26 bigjenk wrote: Whether you want to say ghosts are op or not, the fact is they are a pretty great response to just about everything in tvp and tvz if you can buy the time to get them out, in the current meta. just as infestor are used in every match up. | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:48 phisku wrote: just as infestor are used in every match up. But they have never single handedly won a game | ||
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mburke05
United States130 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:47 epoc wrote: It's just that zerg tier 3 loses almost against every terran unit. It'd be nice if only ghosts countered t3 but it's not so. this is just plain wrong | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:49 epoc wrote: But they have never single handedly won a game so how did ghosts single handedly win MVP the game when he had tanks marines and viking support? | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:41 bigjenk wrote: In high level play, relying on np/emp is not the most stable of strategies as both emp and snipe have longer range. I do however agree with ultras still being a pretty shitty unit 90 percent of the time, can't remember the last time I watched a game where ultras won the game when they weren't already ahead by quite a bit. I addressed the reasoning behind NP/emp, comparing it to the 9 range feedback of HT being an effective way to deal with the ghost. There is nothing unstable about it. Even if they fire the emp at 10 range, you can still use the time of the projectile to get into range and feedback, so why couldn't an infestor, which moves faster than an HT, get into range and steal a ghost? Once you cast Neural, you no longer need energy. | ||
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phisku
Belgium864 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:47 bigjenk wrote: Also I don't think ling/bane is that efficient against ghost mech. Never tested it myself but even with ghosts low dps it takes what 5 banes to kill a ghost? And with fast fingers you can snipe 8 lings or banes per ghost with full energy and even with autos they 2 shot while tanks rape bane/ling. Plus a planetary in chokes>ling bane by a long shot. just a ton of lings then? idk i'm a not a zerg or a very good player either... | ||
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:51 Itsmedudeman wrote: so how did ghosts single handedly win MVP the game when he had tanks marines and viking support? Rarely have even infestors with banelings and zerglins won the game | ||
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alepov
Netherlands1132 Posts
On September 07 2011 18:54 j0ker wrote: ghosts are not a "counter" to ultralisks, they just aren't awful against them. using almost 200 energy of snipe to kill 1 ultra is cost effective on paper, but not really a viable solution if the ultras have support. july had a maximum of 2 infestors against mvp, and never once fungaled a ball of 20 ghosts that were not spread in the slightest. 20 spell casters of any of the 3 races is going to shit on just about anything. running 8 thors in with no support against lings and 20 infestors, and watching as they all get neuraled and kill each other would be just as idiotic as running 8 ultras alone into a tank corridor with ghost support. 20 infestors would shit on just about anything the terran has if he only had 2 ghosts for support, that game on metal is a horrible, horrible game to cite as a balance study for ghosts vs z. ghosts are quite good late game vs Z, but its generally an issue of getting them out in time. they directly cut into tank and medivac production, both of which are 100% required against the normal zerg comps. Furthermore, they usually cannot be pumped out rapidly as terrans rarely have more than a couple tech labbed barracks lying around. letting a terran get 20 ghosts SHOULD lose a zerg a game. brood lords and ultras are designed to punish a terran that is overextending his defenses or is not prepared, not autowin the game for the zerg. ghosts are literally the 1 viable option against heavy infestor/broodlord against a competent zerg, just because that composition isn't autowin for the zerg does not make ghosts OP in the matchup. That's how I feel about it. Awesome comment, didn't expect that in a balance whine thread. Props. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:56 epoc wrote: Rarely have even infestors with banelings and zerglins won the game Mutas have single handedly won the game by that logic. No one is going 100 supply ghosts here. | ||
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Spitfire
South Africa442 Posts
Obviously you'd rather people just sat back and enjoyed watching someone play the game the way MVP plays it then ruin it by crying about imbalance. That said though, it does seem unfair that a Terran can blindly counter both of Zergs late-game tech paths with one unit. | ||
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KiaL.Kiwi
Germany210 Posts
On September 07 2011 20:51 Gooey wrote: I addressed the reasoning behind NP/emp, comparing it to the 9 range feedback of HT being an effective way to deal with the ghost. There is nothing unstable about it. Even if they fire the emp at 10 range, you can still use the time of the projectile to get into range and feedback, so why couldn't an infestor, which moves faster than an HT, get into range and steal a ghost? Once you cast Neural, you no longer need energy. You're partially right - if you are able to get off an EMP on the other Ghosts their strength diminishes radically, and it's always worth a try. Your comparision to Feedback vs. Fungal situations makes it appear a lot easier than it actually is though since you ignore two pretty important aspects: - While Feedback hits instantly, Neural has something you could call 'cast time'. The control over the neuraled unit starts the moment the tentacel hits the unit, not the moment you cast the spell. This may sound insignificant but actually makes a huge difference because during all this time the infestor is open to being attacked - which stands in strong connection to the second point - Ghosts are usually covered by tanks. And that's the range disadvantage that actually matters - it's the 13 vs 9 in addition to the cast time that makes neuraling ghost so much harder than feedbacking Infestors (target priorities complelty aside - you usally don't want to fungal the Ht, while its the mad wish of every terran to EMP/siege the infestors down ;D) | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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epoc
Finland1190 Posts
On September 07 2011 21:04 Itsmedudeman wrote: Mutas have single handedly won the game by that logic. No one is going 100 supply ghosts here. I wonder what marines do to mutas | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
Due to its architecture, meta is T-favored as long as T aims for the late game. The same reason why ladder wins rates are so skewed in zerg's favor on meta. Ladder terrans of their skill level tend to go for 2 base pressure/push instead, but zerg has an advantage at that period of the game due to ease of taking 3rd and counterattacking terran's open natural. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
By Phisku: going back to mass ling/bling would kill those ghost i think. Tanks will be +3 by then, which 1 hit lings & banelings no matter the armor upgrade. | ||
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arbitrageur
Australia1202 Posts
j0ker: july had a maximum of 2 infestors against mvp, and never once fungaled a ball of 20 ghosts that were not spread in the slightest This is a crap suggestion as it relies on a mistake from the terran. When figuring out a solution to ghosts for Z, you can't rely on bad play from the opponent as an element of that solution (unless there is no solid way to beat it). Sending in 1 burrowed infestor, unburrowing out of a-move range to try to get a fungal may be viable.. But perhaps not. Not sure of the dynamic w.r.t. tank range & ghost A-move range, unburrow timing etc (not to mention this isn't possible anywhere a turret is). | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
If everything that was said in the topic is how MVP's thought process was then he is a excellent sniper. All that probably explains perhaps how he and NesTea always reaches so far, they know the game inside out and have incredible solid mechanics to back them up. P.S. Picture still not showing! | ||
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
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Emperor_Earth
United States824 Posts
On September 07 2011 21:24 arbitrageur wrote: Tanks will be +3 by then, which 1 hit lings & banelings no matter the armor upgrade. Yeah. I'm still of the opinion that most Zergs don't abuse their tech swapping ability as badly as they should. Even at the pro level, showing one tech tree will often cause an opponent to massively overreact. Showing just a greater spire can often induce a Terran to make 10 vikings preemptively. If you instead just mass infestor/sling/bling behind this all of a sudden 10 vikings are worthless. Alternatively, Thor/Hellion --> Mass Muta --> Thor/Marine --> Mass roach -> Mass infestor/roach Transition costs you.. what, 150 + 150/150 -> 150/150 + 150/150? [300/150 -> 300/300] (Unit costs are ignored since you would try to empty your bank for reinforcements in either case) Would you rather have 1 muta extra and 8 lings extra or the complete counter to your opponent's unit comp? Obviously it's not as easy as that, but you get the pic. | ||
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