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Sixotanaka
Australia191 Posts
That's not the point. It's that Terran can make a unit that basically hard counters all three of zergs late game options, broods, infestors, and ultras. The only real option left is to never tech and mass mid/early game units to trade cost in-efficiently. EDIT: I want to mention, that SC:BW was so magical because there were very few hard counters. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:05 ShootingStars wrote: snipe can still be used on roaches, (but roaches suck late game anyway) Yeah, but it's still awful. I'm aware that snipe can be used vs all Zerg units. One ghost needs to use at least 100 energy to take out a 75/25 cheap unit, and it's not like you can get off all your snipes immediately. Roaches are very good vs Ghosts, fairly good vs marines, ok vs tanks in smaller numbers, but awful vs the marine/tank comp, even worse when medivacs come. Many zergs have started making use of ling/roach/infestor comp, however. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
IMO he just got out played. There's a reason why MVP has 2 GSL wins and July has 0. He's just a brilliant player, and I think that's what it boils down to. | ||
Chill
Calgary26004 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:44 MockHamill wrote: It takes 12(!) snipes to kill a single Ultra so Ghosts do not counter Ultra at all. Of course if you let the Terran mass 18 Ghost, let them build up energy, send in 7 unsupported Ultras and expect to win, then yes in that situation Ghosts counter Ultras. They definitely do. What are good units to have vs Ultras? Tanks only deal 50 dmg to ultras (although they'll prob have some upgrades), but mass tank is a good thing to have vs ultra. ANYTHING takes a lot of hits to kill an ultra. Also, it's the rate at which they can deal this damage. | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
i mean jesus, infestors, broods, ultras and mutas all die horrible deaths to this one spell. when it comes to the late game and terran has their upgrades for seige tanks you nearly nullify banelings, so a switch isn't that good an idea :/ | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:49 Chill wrote: Aren't Ghosts (specifically with Tanks) just the ideal late game composition? I think these analyses trying to paint typical plays as genius is getting a little weird. It's ideal against a late game composition, but terrible against a early game composition. Against ghost tanks you can make pure lings (which july should have done by the way) | ||
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braheem
Canada81 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:02 ShootingStars wrote: Ghosts are a great unit, they counter anything Zerg except Zerglings, which can be easily buffered by marines/marauders. Ghosts: snipe mutas EMP infestors snipe broodlords snipe ultras okay against roaches snipe hydras Mass ghosts is going to be the new metagame. I feel like when you mass 18-19 ghosts all the zerg has to do is go 3/3 crackling/baneling and laugh at you, when you've got 4+ base economy in the late game situations you can obviously remax on that MUCH quicker and the supply on ghosts will be less supply for tanks, so yeah I hope it's the new metagame, won't need to make anything T3. You can't be everywhere at once, and if you are, then each base you have will have breakable defense. I had a terran do this to me (he made ghosts blindly because he saw a hive) after IMMVP's game. | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:49 FabledIntegral wrote: They definitely do. What are good units to have vs Ultras? Tanks only deal 50 dmg to ultras (although they'll prob have some upgrades), but mass tank is a good thing to have vs ultra. ANYTHING takes a lot of hits to kill an ultra. Also, it's the rate at which they can deal this damage. But with that logic anything is a good counter to Ultras as long as you have enough of them. Hell, that could really be applied to any unit for that matter not just Ultras. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:49 FabledIntegral wrote: They definitely do. What are good units to have vs Ultras? Tanks only deal 50 dmg to ultras (although they'll prob have some upgrades), but mass tank is a good thing to have vs ultra. ANYTHING takes a lot of hits to kill an ultra. Also, it's the rate at which they can deal this damage. 300 energy for 1 kill is not a hard counter. I'm with Mock on this one. Are ghosts amazing vs. Zerg? yes Used right do they neutralize 2 of zergs best units? (blord&infestor) yes are they a counter to Ultras? no | ||
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zerious
Canada3803 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
On September 08 2011 03:44 MockHamill wrote: It takes 12(!) snipes to kill a single Ultra so Ghosts do not counter Ultra at all. Of course if you let the Terran mass 18 Ghost, let them build up energy, send in 7 unsupported Ultras and expect to win, then yes in that situation Ghosts counter Ultras. Don't forget sending them running PAST the ghosts (letting them get free snipes) and targetting a CC under construction, AND being indecisive (sending them back and forth letting them get MORE free snipes). July completely misplayed it. This whole attitude of anything T does is OP and anything Z does is just 'amazing play' is dumb. If Mvp had completely wasted 3000+ resources worth of slow building units no one would be saying X Zerg unit is OP. Heck, I'd bet July could've even killed every single ghost since Mvp had them out by themselves. | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On September 07 2011 18:25 ManicMarine wrote: I agree with you that MVP almost certainly has a timing where he is weak while transitioning to ghosts, in the same way that transitioning to carriers has a big weakness. Additionally, I agree that just because when you have mass ghost (and can use them correctly) you kinda can't lose, that doesn't make it imbalanced, in the same way that carriers aren't imbalanced because you can't get that critical mass. However, I still think that MVP's matches pretty plainly show that ghosts are imbalanced in TvZ. I'm a top masters terran who has previously been GM on the SEA server, so while I'm no pro, I'm not some noobie who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about either. The fact that ghosts are a hard counter to infestors, and a soft counter to both broodlords and ultralisks is plainly a problem. Even if it does turn out that terran has a timing at which they can die while getting ghosts (and I'm by no means convinced that there is), then lategame tvz may still devolve into 'can the zerg kill the terran before he gets ghosts'. Edit: I also want to say that Tier 3 is a necessary part of lategame tvz which is by no means contained to July. It is necessary for every tvz that gets to the lategame. As I've said previously, its simply plainly imbalanced to have a unit that is a counter to all three tier 3 techs. TL;DR I dont often like to call imbalance, particularly when its a newish strategy, but in this case I think it's justified. What's wrong with that? Anything XvZ was for a long time "can X kill Z before Blord+Infestor" | ||
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j0ker
275 Posts
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j0ker
275 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:13 oxxo wrote: Don't forget sending them running PAST the ghosts (letting them get free snipes) and targetting a CC under construction, AND being indecisive (sending them back and forth letting them get MORE free snipes). July completely misplayed it. This whole attitude of anything T does is OP and anything Z does is just 'amazing play' is dumb. If Mvp had completely wasted 3000+ resources worth of slow building units no one would be saying X Zerg unit is OP. Heck, I'd bet July could've even killed every single ghost since Mvp had them out by themselves. exactly. if mvp ran 8 thors onto creep with no support and a bunch of infestors neuraled them all and had a thor civil war, nobody here would be arguing that infestors are op. even though they are quite op if you let the zerg get 20 of them without punishing, just like ghosts. | ||
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Adventurekid
Sweden505 Posts
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N1k0
Uruguay1075 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:16 j0ker wrote: ghosts late game vs zerg is not new at all people. despite what idra says, plenty of people have been using it for quite a while. we might not have seen 20 before in a gsl game, but we also havent seen many half map gsl tvz's. terran actually having a counter to broodlord infestor does not make ghosts OP jesus christ. 1 fungal and every ghost is killed. You will never get the fungal off unless your opponent fucks up, even if you do how on earth every ghost is killed?. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Zergs have had infestor+broodlords late game dominance for quite a while now (to the point where it was almost untouchable and still is insanely strong / cost effective). So now Terran players got better and are developing ghost play...Zergs cry imbalance all across the forums again? After a game in 1 series where July basically punched himself out and MVP just let him do that? Ghosts are really good and people are using em more, but MVP could have turtled and had that 40 supply invested in marines+marauders and July still would have suicided over and over into MVP because that is just how July has played since SC1. I just find it amazing how few Terrans openly criticized broodlord/infestor on the forums, but after ONE game in a series of a Terran developing something new every Zerg and his brother immediately is in a frenzy and crying imbalance already. I think, and this bothers me, for some reason Zergs would be perfectly happy if they were unbeatable late-game in a macro game. Guess what guys? Just because T found a way to finally play you guys after the 15 minute mark doesn't mean what they are doing is imbalanced. No more auto-wins for you!  Start building double nydus to spread T thin, start doing brofestor drops with 80 infested Terrans like destiny, and you still have infestor+broods ! User was warned for this post | ||
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