EPTAnalysis: The Reasoning Behind MVP's Ghosts - Page 7
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Aiurr
Poland80 Posts
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purecarnagge
719 Posts
He got tricked and didn't make cracklings. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:04 p1cKLes wrote: But with that logic anything is a good counter to Ultras as long as you have enough of them. Hell, that could really be applied to any unit for that matter not just Ultras. Not at all, it's the DPS that matters. The rate at which you can get rid of those ultras is super fast via using snipe. On September 08 2011 04:04 Slusher wrote: 300 energy for 1 kill is not a hard counter. I'm with Mock on this one. Are ghosts amazing vs. Zerg? yes Used right do they neutralize 2 of zergs best units? (blord&infestor) yes are they a counter to Ultras? no Energy isn't as relevant in this situation as the DPS dealt to kill the ultra. You can kill them faster I believe than stimmed rauders, which I presume would be dealing 21 dmg per shot. If snipe had a major cooldown, yeah, it would suck, but seeing as it can be rapid fired from multiple ghosts, it can obliterate an ultra army before it gets close, and also tank damage quite well from ultras. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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fant0m
964 Posts
On September 07 2011 18:25 ManicMarine wrote: Additionally, I agree that just because when you have mass ghost (and can use them correctly) you kinda can't lose, that doesn't make it imbalanced, in the same way that carriers aren't imbalanced because you can't get that critical mass. Um, for one thing Ghosts are about 10000000000x easier to get than Carriers, especially mass Carriers. That's a really bad comparison. And you should never be able to get to a scenario where you literally can't lose. Just because you're a little vulnerable (and really, Mvp was never "vulnerable", just look at his supply for that entire game. July's only good timing would have been 2 minutes before he waited for 2/2 to finish. After that Mvp's macro was just too godly). On September 07 2011 18:39 Anima4 wrote: maybe something like mass cracklings and banelings is the way to go once you realise how many ghosts there are, which obviously means less tanks overall. That was my first thought as well, but personally the problem I have with that is that even a FEW tanks is enough to rack up 30 kills each with the right positioning when we're talking banelings and zerglings. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On September 08 2011 04:52 fant0m wrote: Um, for one thing Ghosts are about 10000000000x easier to get than Carriers, especially mass Carriers. That's a really bad comparison. And you should never be able to get to a scenario where you literally can't lose. Just because you're a little vulnerable (and really, Mvp was never "vulnerable", just look at his supply for that entire game. July's only good timing would have been 2 minutes before he waited for 2/2 to finish. After that Mvp's macro was just too godly). That was my first thought as well, but personally the problem I have with that is that even a FEW tanks is enough to rack up 30 kills each with the right positioning when we're talking banelings and zerglings. Are you kidding? He was behind 50 supply at certain points and when July attacked him at the nat MVP barely held on when he was completely in a good defensive position. If July focus attacked MVP's 3rd MVP would not have won that game because at the least he would have lost his economy. Let's not pretend July played a perfect game or even close to a perfect game while MVP did. If MVP threw away 12 ultras worth of resources for literally nothing he would have lost for sure. | ||
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dgwow
Canada1024 Posts
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
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teamamerica
United States958 Posts
But overall I think the map contributed a lot to how MVP played. Metaloplis late game has only 2 paths of attack. So while I think ultra/mass ling is good against ghost, on Meta you can't actually do that easily. There are tanks with the ghost and it's far too easy to split Meta. And drops versus Zerg are a strange thing - they become more effective the later the game goes (because Zerg gets more spread out - versus drops against protoss which become less effective cause Toss gets 15+ gates up and just warps in and you die). Again I'm hesitant to say July was in an unwinnable position, just because I don't think his early game was that good, so the endgame might look worse then it really is, but what else could July do besides throw ultra/ling down the center (I'm leaning toward just mass brood/infestor or drop play - nydus maybe but I've killed those with a marine on patrol so I'm not sure). If MVP tried the same ghost/mech turtle play on a map like Tal Darim, I don't think it works out so well because 1) if MVP stayed in the small area that's really easy to seige (in front of your nat/third) July could take like 12 bases and 2) moving out there there space is a lot more open for ultra/mass ling stuff to be effective. Shattered temple too at least has a more open center of the map. Can't think of any other maps off the top of my head but I doubt any of them are as closed as metal. I think Metal favors zerg in the early game but as once you reach beyond 3 bases, it becomes harder for zerg just because there aren't that many bases and the Terran on 4bases has the map split pretty well. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On September 08 2011 05:05 LAN-f34r wrote: Ghosts vs zerg is the ultimate end game army. However, it can't really be gotten unless you are already ahead, and it can't be used effectively unless you are good. Its similar to the broodlord/corrupter/infestor composition or the void ray/colossus vs Z. You can't really deal with these compositions, but they aren't imbalanced because it is so easy to kill someone who is going for them, unless they are already ahead (in that case, shouldn't they win?). It's not applicable at all, what? How is it so easy to kill someone going for either BL/Corrupter/Infestor or Voidray/Colossus? That's completely nonsense. And at no point do you have to be "already ahead." | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
After the push you have 3base T vs. 3 base Z(with 2 queens) Terran has just finished their ghost academy and Zerg has no pool and no pool building. Zerg has no army, Terran has some units, and all production is still online. Let's pretend for a minute that this was irrelevant to the outcome of the game, at 32:54 he pushes a mined out planetary fortress with ~12 broodlords and no ground support, into 7 vikings and all of MVPs ghosts. meanwhile MVP drops the 3 o'clock and kills 1 of 2 mining hatcherys (3 if you count the gold which had no drones) for 2 medivacs and ~16 marines. he never gets that base back up and running again for the rest of the game, and the gold is under constant pressure. The point I'm trying to make is the fact that MVP won this game largely revolves around good drop play and bad management of drop defense, nothing new to ZvT. Am I arguing that ghosts are bad? hell no, they are one of the best units in the T army if not the game, but the majority of the units they sniped were poorly thought out half pushes to questionable areas of contention, a big part of the reason those ghosts were "invincible" was because they were glued to the siege tanks yet July continued to attack them even after the position had lost some of it's relevance. The fact of the matter is July continued to make units that eat a ton of supply and pushing an entrenched position with less than all of his army, until the final push. but by the time that came MVP had marine dropped the 3 and the 4 and July had no income in comparison to MVP. | ||
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TutsiRebel
United States172 Posts
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Deleted User 109835
629 Posts
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Treble557
United States221 Posts
So yeah.. game was sick tho, imo, even if it seemed a little silly with the snipes. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
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Maghetti
United States2429 Posts
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ArchDC
Malaysia1996 Posts
His army positioning etc. in holding off the crazy baneling attack (though losing all his army) was impressive, a lot of terrans would've died from the subsequent zerglings rolling in... | ||
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Elean
689 Posts
Ghosts are good against any zerg late game composition, it's not as if MVP was making a gamble here. They counter, ultra, bl, and infestors... And to anyone saying that ghosts are OP based on this game, do you honestly think july played better than MVP in this game ? | ||
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SC.Shifty
Canada135 Posts
July was going infestor ultra blord ling late game, that's not a typical style that Ghost counters. If July had went anything else (roach, muta, lingbling, etc.) He would have got stomped even harder due to the mech MVP was massing. This is all tier 3 units + the end all be all OP infestors getting completely stomped by ghosts, watching an ultra trying to out DPS a single Ghost near the and failing gave me shivers. Ghost needs a fix soon, either up the energy of snipe, reduce damage, change the cost back to gas, or reduce hp. Ghosts don't like to die easily unless it gets a feedback. | ||
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David451
United States491 Posts
backs slowly out of thread | ||
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