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On September 08 2011 14:57 David451 wrote:
Let me get this straight: July attacked ling/bling into an entrenched defensive seige position, lost his whole army, followed it up by throwing away 10 or so unsupported ultralisks for nothing, and some people this is the game that proves ghosts are OP against Zerg?
backs slowly out of thread
Its because you got to see July use multiple MAXED armies with multiple compositions against a turtling late game heavy mech + heavy ghost play. You saw ultras and infestors and broods get slaughtered for have the game. Yeah he wasted a lot of stuff and could have definitely handled things better, but ghosts still showed they can take down hive tech and infestors in the blink of an eye, which zerg needs to break a turtling terran.
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On September 08 2011 15:06 Maghetti wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 14:57 David451 wrote:
Let me get this straight: July attacked ling/bling into an entrenched defensive seige position, lost his whole army, followed it up by throwing away 10 or so unsupported ultralisks for nothing, and some people this is the game that proves ghosts are OP against Zerg?
backs slowly out of thread Its because you got to see July use multiple MAXED armies with multiple compositions against a turtling late game heavy mech + heavy ghost play. You saw ultras and infestors and broods get slaughtered for have the game. Yeah he wasted a lot of stuff and could have definitely handled things better, but ghosts still showed they can take down hive tech and infestors in the blink of an eye, which zerg needs to break a turtling terran.
I'm just saying, maybe we should wait for a game where the Zerg doesn't let a bunker go up in their natural when the Terran went a single 13-rax? Maybe a game where the Zerg doesn't attack into a fortified position at a mined-out planetary fortress? Maybe a game where the Zerg doesn't throw away 9 ultras for free attacking a command center that wasn't even finished building? Maybe a game where the Zerg throws his maxed ling/bling/muta army at the unprotected 3rd of MVP instead of attacking into his spread out seige tank/marine line? Maybe a game where the Zerg is defending drops instead of letting their spawning pool and spire go down for free?
Frankly I'm surprised it took MVP so long to finish July off.
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On September 08 2011 12:35 ArchDC wrote:
I like the analysis, it is debatable as to whether it is the right 'counter', was it on the fly or a prepared build etc. but there is no denying MVP's game sense and decision making is top-notch as expected of a BW A-teamer.
His army positioning etc. in holding off the crazy baneling attack (though losing all his army) was impressive, a lot of terrans would've died from the subsequent zerglings rolling in...
that's cuz mvp sniped the pool, so july couldn't remake units fast enough. you saw him make 72 lings after his pool finished. imagine those 72 lings RIGHT after his initial attack when mvp lost everything.
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On September 08 2011 16:16 David451 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 15:06 Maghetti wrote:On September 08 2011 14:57 David451 wrote:
Let me get this straight: July attacked ling/bling into an entrenched defensive seige position, lost his whole army, followed it up by throwing away 10 or so unsupported ultralisks for nothing, and some people this is the game that proves ghosts are OP against Zerg?
backs slowly out of thread Its because you got to see July use multiple MAXED armies with multiple compositions against a turtling late game heavy mech + heavy ghost play. You saw ultras and infestors and broods get slaughtered for have the game. Yeah he wasted a lot of stuff and could have definitely handled things better, but ghosts still showed they can take down hive tech and infestors in the blink of an eye, which zerg needs to break a turtling terran. I'm just saying, maybe we should wait for a game where the Zerg doesn't let a bunker go up in their natural when the Terran went a single 13-rax? Maybe a game where the Zerg doesn't attack into a fortified position at a mined-out planetary fortress? Maybe a game where the Zerg doesn't throw away 9 ultras for free attacking a command center that wasn't even finished building? Maybe a game where the Zerg throws his maxed ling/bling/muta army at the unprotected 3rd of MVP instead of attacking into his spread out seige tank/marine line? Maybe a game where the Zerg is defending drops instead of letting their spawning pool and spire go down for free? Frankly I'm surprised it took MVP so long to finish July off.
I don't think any of that stuff really matters that much for whether ghosts are too good or not because we still saw maxed zerg with hive uit backing fight multiple battles. But, that map is so easy to split map and turtle for terrans so I would say, wait and see how this play turns out on different maps. So far the only terrans who have really pulled off this split map late game terran stuff has been the best two terrans in the world, Mvp and Bomber. Bomber was also slaughtering the high tech units of Dong Rae Gu when they faced off in similar fashion(not as many ghosts but same effect).
That game felt to me just like a game that a thread was recently made on. The Mvp vs Ryung game where Mvp tech switched to BCs in the late game, first time it had ever been scene. Now that sort of thing is standard and quite refined. Similarly, this Mvp vs July game felt like Mvp showing off what large amounts of ghosts can do in the late game to zerg with a tank backing. I expect this to sooner or later take over the match up so we will get plenty of time to see how strong it really is.
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On September 08 2011 14:19 Elean wrote:
Congratulation to MVP for predicting July was going to make biological units in the late game...
Ghosts are good against any zerg late game composition, it's not as if MVP was making a gamble here. They counter, ultra, bl, and infestors...
And to anyone saying that ghosts are OP based on this game, do you honestly think july played better than MVP in this game ?
any ghost make is almost one less tank, and certainly less marines.
If july didn't invest 70% of his resources into T3 units, he could've easily overwhelmed Immvp little siege line and massive ghost groups with roaches/zerglings/banelings.
He could even abuse the immobility of heavy ghost/mech army with drops or nydus. Take out Mvp's expansion or production line should win him the game as well.
It doesn't even have to come down to that as well. Good control of infestors/broodlord should still be equal footing against ghosts and vikings. Landing one fungal = all ghost and viking dies, and snipe range = BL range
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I just don't understand why he didn't make non Brood/Ultra/Infestor. It's like July was trying to prove that Ghosts in high numbers destroy those 3 units. We already knew that on paper, so he proved it in practise for us. Thanks!!
If Ghosts are in fact overpowered then this is not a good case study on trying to prove that point.
One of the most painful to watch games i've seen in some time.
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On September 08 2011 16:30 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 14:19 Elean wrote:
Congratulation to MVP for predicting July was going to make biological units in the late game...
Ghosts are good against any zerg late game composition, it's not as if MVP was making a gamble here. They counter, ultra, bl, and infestors...
And to anyone saying that ghosts are OP based on this game, do you honestly think july played better than MVP in this game ? any ghost make is almost one less tank, and certainly less marines. If july didn't invest 70% of his resources into T3 units, he could've easily overwhelmed Immvp little siege line and massive ghost groups with roaches/zerglings/banelings. He could even abuse the immobility of heavy ghost/mech army with drops or nydus. Take out Mvp's expansion or production line should win him the game as well. It doesn't even have to come down to that as well. Good control of infestors/broodlord should still be equal footing against ghosts and vikings. Landing one fungal = all ghost and viking dies, and snipe range = BL range
I disagree. When july's first muta/ling/baneling max failed MVP had an amazing defense set up when he got his gold. He had tanks spread out very well, had thors and then the ghosts. If july had stayed tier 2 he would have still lost just as bad and ghosts are a good counter to infestors (although I do agree july could have gotten a fungel or so on the ghosts as MVP did not spread them at all that game and didn't snipe the infestors/emp when they both had opportunities for a little bit).
I do question why july never dropped though, nydus I can understand but he got drop tech (believe he had overlord speed to) but didn't drop at all. But other then drop I don't see any way he could have broken that amazing defense by MVP with tanks spread out so sexily and had some on the high ground in that one area. I do not see tier 2 EVER breaking that defense ^^.
But drops would have been better at least to try I do think july should have done some sort of drops but yeah.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
doesn't need to be 100% correct to be a good read
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The game was over when July's drone-cutting all-in failed to inflict any economic damage whatsoever.
It's incidental that Mvp's anti-broodlord choice (snipe) is workable against mass ultra when you have a huge econ lead.
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On September 07 2011 18:54 j0ker wrote:
ghosts are not a "counter" to ultralisks, they just aren't awful against them. using almost 200 energy of snipe to kill 1 ultra is cost effective on paper, but not really a viable solution if the ultras have support. july had a maximum of 2 infestors against mvp, and never once fungaled a ball of 20 ghosts that were not spread in the slightest. 20 spell casters of any of the 3 races is going to shit on just about anything. running 8 thors in with no support against lings and 20 infestors, and watching as they all get neuraled and kill each other would be just as idiotic as running 8 ultras alone into a tank corridor with ghost support. 20 infestors would shit on just about anything the terran has if he only had 2 ghosts for support, that game on metal is a horrible, horrible game to cite as a balance study for ghosts vs z.
ghosts are quite good late game vs Z, but its generally an issue of getting them out in time. they directly cut into tank and medivac production, both of which are 100% required against the normal zerg comps. Furthermore, they usually cannot be pumped out rapidly as terrans rarely have more than a couple tech labbed barracks lying around. letting a terran get 20 ghosts SHOULD lose a zerg a game. brood lords and ultras are designed to punish a terran that is overextending his defenses or is not prepared, not autowin the game for the zerg. ghosts are literally the 1 viable option against heavy infestor/broodlord against a competent zerg, just because that composition isn't autowin for the zerg does not make ghosts OP in the matchup.
Exactly. Spot on.
Also, July was in a decent position throughout the whole game even though he set himself back by not cost effectively killing MvP's army with his 2-2 muta ling bling timing attack. Not to mention suicide ultras without support and not having enough infestor's to support his mainly tier 3 army.
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