Analysis: The Reasoning Behind MVP's Ghosts - Page 2

On September 07 2011 20:07 simansh wrote:
Umm ghost mech has been around for like 2 months.. Idra and demuslim talk about it all the time.

On September 07 2011 20:10 Plexa wrote:

My thoughts...

Further, when you're in a late game situation it's never a bad idea to make a lot of ghosts. You can't go wrong;
- they can deal with infestors
- they can deal with zerg T3
- they do extra damage vs light (i.e. destroy mutas)
- snipe can still be used on roaches, although they aren't the best here (but roaches suck late game anyway)

On September 07 2011 18:25 ManicMarine wrote:


I agree with you that MVP almost certainly has a timing where he is weak while transitioning to ghosts, in the same way that transitioning to carriers has a big weakness. Additionally, I agree that just because when you have mass ghost (and can use them correctly) you kinda can't lose, that doesn't make it imbalanced, in the same way that carriers aren't imbalanced because you can't get that critical mass.

However, I still think that MVP's matches pretty plainly show that ghosts are imbalanced in TvZ. I'm a top masters terran who has previously been GM on the SEA server, so while I'm no pro, I'm not some noobie who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about either. The fact that ghosts are a hard counter to infestors, and a soft counter to both broodlords and ultralisks is plainly a problem. Even if it does turn out that terran has a timing at which they can die while getting ghosts (and I'm by no means convinced that there is), then lategame tvz may still devolve into 'can the zerg kill the terran before he gets ghosts'.

Edit: I also want to say that Tier 3 is a necessary part of lategame tvz which is by no means contained to July. It is necessary for every tvz that gets to the lategame. As I've said previously, its simply plainly imbalanced to have a unit that is a counter to all three tier 3 techs.

TL;DR I dont often like to call imbalance, particularly when its a newish strategy, but in this case I think it's justified.

On September 07 2011 18:25 ManicMarine wrote:


I agree with you that MVP almost certainly has a timing where he is weak while transitioning to ghosts, in the same way that transitioning to carriers has a big weakness. Additionally, I agree that just because when you have mass ghost (and can use them correctly) you kinda can't lose, that doesn't make it imbalanced, in the same way that carriers aren't imbalanced because you can't get that critical mass.

However, I still think that MVP's matches pretty plainly show that ghosts are imbalanced in TvZ. I'm a top masters terran who has previously been GM on the SEA server, so while I'm no pro, I'm not some noobie who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about either. The fact that ghosts are a hard counter to infestors, and a soft counter to both broodlords and ultralisks is plainly a problem. Even if it does turn out that terran has a timing at which they can die while getting ghosts (and I'm by no means convinced that there is), then lategame tvz may still devolve into 'can the zerg kill the terran before he gets ghosts'.

Edit: I also want to say that Tier 3 is a necessary part of lategame tvz which is by no means contained to July. It is necessary for every tvz that gets to the lategame. As I've said previously, its simply plainly imbalanced to have a unit that is a counter to all three tier 3 techs.

TL;DR I dont often like to call imbalance, particularly when its a newish strategy, but in this case I think it's justified.

On September 07 2011 20:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
MVP had almost 40 supply in ghosts. What's to stop the zerg from switching into mass ling baneling and just having him end up with a third of an army that's near useless?

On September 07 2011 20:20 Disquiet wrote:

I think you're very premature crying imbalance when a new strategy has been used in one series to date. I honestly don't think ghosts are that good against ultras, it takes 12 snipes to kill one.. which means the terran needs to build up his ghost energy, ghosts with 75-100 energy each are not going to beat ultralisks cost effectively. This means they are hard to replace and can be beaten using a war of attrition style. in addition I have found it very difficult to make ghosts work vs infestor broodlord, but it may just be that my mechanics are not up to par, but I feel vikings are more effective.

On September 07 2011 20:16 Itsmedudeman wrote:
MVP had almost 40 supply in ghosts. What's to stop the zerg from switching into mass ling baneling and just having him end up with a third of an army that's near useless?

On September 07 2011 20:29 Gooey wrote:

T3 is necessary, yes. By no means do you need ONLY tier 3 units in your army comp. Ghosts don't exactly hard counter infestors, either. If you are having problems with a pack of 12 ghosts or so late game, have you tried doing something like stealing a ghost and EMPing his? I've had zerg players in pvz steal one of my templar with a sneaky burrowed infestor and feedback 4 other temps. I would assume stealing a high-energy ghost and double emping a clump of ghosts would be even more devastating, and easier, than feedback. The energy is the scary part of the ghost. Massing up casters is, and should be, strong play. They are the most potent units in the game, as well as the hardest to use. Even though neural is 9 range compared to the 10 of snipe and emp, we protoss still manage to feedback fastest finger in the west style.

As far as only making tier 3, I have always seen that as very, very odd play. Seeing a zerg suddenly make 14 ultras looks scary in the production tab, but when you face it, no so much. Ultras don't do a great deal of damage due to how ridiculously large they are, resulting in poor surface area. Good players will often only engage them in chokes, were no more than 2-3 ultras are attacking at once, while 9 others are bouncing around in the back. I would much rather see 14 ultras on the field than 5 ultras, 60 lings, and 20 banes. Making 14 ultras might seem cheap when you are on 5 bases as zerg, but that is highly misleading. 4200 minerals and 2800 gas is expensive. If you cut out 9 of those ultras, you free up 2700 minerals and 1800 gas. That is a LOT of money. A few ultras leading a charge soaking up tank shots and some snipes for 2700 minerals and 1800 gas worth of ling/banelings to roll through with a few infestors to support is much scarier than only ultras. Terran can't be sniping you ultras, emping your infestors, target firing banelings with tanks, AND splitting marines/microing blue flame all at the same time if you engage with everything at once. If you only send in ultras, that is rather easy to micro against.

And as a protoss, I can say that the "having a unit that can counter all t3 techs" statement can be applied in zvp with infestors. If it gets to a point in the game where zerg has a huge clump of infestors waddling around, the last thing I want to make is a bunch of high food, expensive units, because 9/10 the zerg will just steal it all and I end up wiping myself out technically. Dealing with spell casters requires micro. There is no 'unit' or 'build' to counter a spell caster. You just have to out-play your opponent.

On September 07 2011 18:54 j0ker wrote:
ghosts are not a "counter" to ultralisks, they just aren't awful against them. using almost 200 energy of snipe to kill 1 ultra is cost effective on paper, but not really a viable solution if the ultras have support. july had a maximum of 2 infestors against mvp, and never once fungaled a ball of 20 ghosts that were not spread in the slightest. 20 spell casters of any of the 3 races is going to shit on just about anything. running 8 thors in with no support against lings and 20 infestors, and watching as they all get neuraled and kill each other would be just as idiotic as running 8 ultras alone into a tank corridor with ghost support. 20 infestors would shit on just about anything the terran has if he only had 2 ghosts for support, that game on metal is a horrible, horrible game to cite as a balance study for ghosts vs z.

ghosts are quite good late game vs Z, but its generally an issue of getting them out in time. they directly cut into tank and medivac production, both of which are 100% required against the normal zerg comps. Furthermore, they usually cannot be pumped out rapidly as terrans rarely have more than a couple tech labbed barracks lying around. letting a terran get 20 ghosts SHOULD lose a zerg a game. brood lords and ultras are designed to punish a terran that is overextending his defenses or is not prepared, not autowin the game for the zerg. ghosts are literally the 1 viable option against heavy infestor/broodlord against a competent zerg, just because that composition isn't autowin for the zerg does not make ghosts OP in the matchup.

On September 07 2011 20:37 phisku wrote:
going back to mass ling/bling would kill those ghost i think.