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Can we stop talking about nerfing things please? - 9:10 KST |
On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing.
Reduce banshee damage to non light armored units. I suggested this about a dozen pages ago and people couldn't really argue against it.
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Early void ray/gateway becomes a pain when I 1-1-1.
Forces responses that I don't like to choose from.
Also keeping protoss army at bottom of ramp waiting makes me also feel uncomfortable.
But for now I guess, if its a big map do a standard FE opening if your toss, and on smaller maps with possible close spawns choose a safer opening.
I also have trouble once toss has 3-4 bases, then can start going colossi/temp, or even colossi/fenix/Vr is pretty nutty.
Toss is late game is pretty sexy though..... I guess the problem is just getting their alive and either on equal footing or a decent lead.
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The current problem I have against this build is this.
The safest build protoss has is gaterobogate. Safe against almost every single allin, and while it gets you behind against a FE from terran, it's not irrecoverable. What you gain is safety from not 1/1/1.
At this point my reasoning is that by getting the fastest safe observer, there are 2 things that should be possible. Either a one base build that wtfpwns what the terran is trying to do via hard counter, or else expand and be reasonably safe against terran assuming no screwups.
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On August 22 2011 13:08 Debo wrote:
Early void ray/gateway becomes a pain when I 1-1-1.
Forces responses that I don't like to choose from.
Also keeping protoss army at bottom of ramp waiting makes me also feel uncomfortable.
But for now I guess, if its a big map do a standard FE opening if your toss, and on smaller maps with possible close spawns choose a safer opening.
I also have trouble once toss has 3-4 bases, then can start going colossi/temp, or even colossi/fenix/Vr is pretty nutty.
Toss is late game is pretty sexy though..... I guess the problem is just getting their alive and either on equal footing or a decent lead.
The game shouldnt be in a position where the only answer to a 1 base all-in is another 1 base all-in though.
Even if it's balanced, thats not how it should work.
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On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing.
Which match-up will break if the amount of shots that PDD absorbs is reduced? I don't really see PDD used much anyway. What about if Phoenix's lift causes sieged tanks to unsiege? I'm sure Blizzard have more creative solutions.
Anyway, if it's really true what you say that those changes didn't break anything, why did this build make a return? The fact is those changes actually broke Protoss early aggression and early defense..
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On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing.
I would guess they are most likely to change banshees. As they are extremely powerful in all three match-ups, and a core part of this build, a change to banshees would be the logical place to start.
The other possible change is to factory/starport build time. One of the issues that causes the 1-1-1 to be so effective is that it is so incredibly quick and easy for terrans to access their tech.
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On August 22 2011 13:12 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing. I would guess they are most likely to change banshees. As they are extremely powerful in all three match-ups, and a core part of this build, a change to banshees would be the logical place to start. The other possible change is to factory/starport build time. One of the issues that causes the 1-1-1 to be so effective is that it is so incredibly quick and easy for terrans to access their tech.
Theres a lot of balance options and Blizzard has people with PHD's so a fix to the game is not hard to imagine. However a balance patch should be the absolute LAST option. Unfortunately I think it might be the only one at this point.
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On August 22 2011 13:10 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:08 Debo wrote:
Early void ray/gateway becomes a pain when I 1-1-1.
Forces responses that I don't like to choose from.
Also keeping protoss army at bottom of ramp waiting makes me also feel uncomfortable.
But for now I guess, if its a big map do a standard FE opening if your toss, and on smaller maps with possible close spawns choose a safer opening.
I also have trouble once toss has 3-4 bases, then can start going colossi/temp, or even colossi/fenix/Vr is pretty nutty.
Toss is late game is pretty sexy though..... I guess the problem is just getting their alive and either on equal footing or a decent lead.
The game shouldnt be in a position where the only answer to a 1 base all-in is another 1 base all-in though. Even if it's balanced, thats not how it should work.
Sometimes you just gotta play the strongest hand you can play based on the current game state. It will definitely be interesting to see how toss will be responding to this over the next couple of weeks.
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On August 22 2011 13:14 Debo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:10 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 13:08 Debo wrote:
Early void ray/gateway becomes a pain when I 1-1-1.
Forces responses that I don't like to choose from.
Also keeping protoss army at bottom of ramp waiting makes me also feel uncomfortable.
But for now I guess, if its a big map do a standard FE opening if your toss, and on smaller maps with possible close spawns choose a safer opening.
I also have trouble once toss has 3-4 bases, then can start going colossi/temp, or even colossi/fenix/Vr is pretty nutty.
Toss is late game is pretty sexy though..... I guess the problem is just getting their alive and either on equal footing or a decent lead.
The game shouldnt be in a position where the only answer to a 1 base all-in is another 1 base all-in though. Even if it's balanced, thats not how it should work. Sometimes you just gotta play the strongest hand you can play based on the current game state. It will definitely be interesting to see how toss will be responding to this over the next couple of weeks.
Probably similar to what we have been seeing. A lot of voidray all ins, or a lot of pure metagaming on 1 base.
Either one hurts the game and makes it less fun. And fun is what we are all about!
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On August 22 2011 13:14 Debo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:10 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 13:08 Debo wrote:
Early void ray/gateway becomes a pain when I 1-1-1.
Forces responses that I don't like to choose from.
Also keeping protoss army at bottom of ramp waiting makes me also feel uncomfortable.
But for now I guess, if its a big map do a standard FE opening if your toss, and on smaller maps with possible close spawns choose a safer opening.
I also have trouble once toss has 3-4 bases, then can start going colossi/temp, or even colossi/fenix/Vr is pretty nutty.
Toss is late game is pretty sexy though..... I guess the problem is just getting their alive and either on equal footing or a decent lead.
The game shouldnt be in a position where the only answer to a 1 base all-in is another 1 base all-in though. Even if it's balanced, thats not how it should work. Sometimes you just gotta play the strongest hand you can play based on the current game state. It will definitely be interesting to see how toss will be responding to this over the next couple of weeks.
well dude it was pretty clear from the games how toss could respond for a win, i feel the only reason for these ridiculously long threads was the "korean netizen reaction" post.
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On August 22 2011 12:59 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:56 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmm this is really tough, I keep thinking about it more and more, and as a Z player (although I watch a TON of games from all races, it's still a poor substitute to actually playing them), this is SO hard for P to stop, especially on close positions or small 1v1 maps like xel naga. I dunno what they should even do... I calculated what would happen based off of MC's mining between the first and second push (a rough estimate, but pretty accurate) if he went colossus tech. He would have had 1 colossus with ETL just barely maybe finishing with (I'd assume he'd get more stalkers with this route for banshees/raven) around 10 stalkers, a few zealots, 2 sentries, and 3 immortals (left over from first push).
Do you guys think that would've held? I think he might've had to sac his nexus for ETL to finish, I'm not sure, it depends on when Puma attacked and how careful he was... damn this is so strong. Definitely a huge challenge for P, it'll be interesting to see if P can respond to this or if it needs a nerf somehow... idk how you would nerf it though.
However if I may say one thing, all the immature idiots just screaming and bitching OP need to calm down or get out of this thread. You're not helping anything, and NONE of you are going to ever face such a well executed 1/1/1 ever, so stop crying. Well executed 1-1-1's happen on the ladder all the time. The problem with that explicit situation you were describing is another problem with the 1-1-1, its not really an all in. Even if the push is held.... 1-1-1 take two can come down and kill you anyway. And it's tough to ascertain if the terran is done with the first wave or is coming down with a second one.
In GM, sure, maybe high masters. But no way it happens anywhere beyond that.
I realize that 1/1/1 part 2 can come kill you, which is what happened. But the reason that happened is that MC overmade probes because he lost his scouting obs. He just send it in a straight line to the T base, instead of around the corners in the same way you would send a banshee or medivac into a base. He needed to be making units instead of probes. That lost obs scout was so huge.
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On August 22 2011 13:07 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing. Reduce banshee damage to non light armored units. I suggested this about a dozen pages ago and people couldn't really argue against it.
This actually seems like a pretty good idea.
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On August 22 2011 13:15 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:59 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 12:56 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmm this is really tough, I keep thinking about it more and more, and as a Z player (although I watch a TON of games from all races, it's still a poor substitute to actually playing them), this is SO hard for P to stop, especially on close positions or small 1v1 maps like xel naga. I dunno what they should even do... I calculated what would happen based off of MC's mining between the first and second push (a rough estimate, but pretty accurate) if he went colossus tech. He would have had 1 colossus with ETL just barely maybe finishing with (I'd assume he'd get more stalkers with this route for banshees/raven) around 10 stalkers, a few zealots, 2 sentries, and 3 immortals (left over from first push).
Do you guys think that would've held? I think he might've had to sac his nexus for ETL to finish, I'm not sure, it depends on when Puma attacked and how careful he was... damn this is so strong. Definitely a huge challenge for P, it'll be interesting to see if P can respond to this or if it needs a nerf somehow... idk how you would nerf it though.
However if I may say one thing, all the immature idiots just screaming and bitching OP need to calm down or get out of this thread. You're not helping anything, and NONE of you are going to ever face such a well executed 1/1/1 ever, so stop crying. Well executed 1-1-1's happen on the ladder all the time. The problem with that explicit situation you were describing is another problem with the 1-1-1, its not really an all in. Even if the push is held.... 1-1-1 take two can come down and kill you anyway. And it's tough to ascertain if the terran is done with the first wave or is coming down with a second one. In GM, sure, maybe high masters. But no way it happens anywhere beyond that. I realize that 1/1/1 part 2 can come kill you, which is what happened. But the reason that happened is that MC overmade probes because he lost his scouting obs. He just send it in a straight line to the T base, instead of around the corners in the same way you would send a banshee or medivac into a base. He needed to be making units instead of probes. That lost obs scout was so huge.
Maybe. But I am pretty sure I can teach a gold leaguer how to build those units and move them across the map into siege range of the natural and then press E on all siege tanks.
The micro flair that happens afterwords is just the final 5 percent of the build. Protoss can't handle the first 90 percent of the build reliably even if they know about it, let alone that final grand master touch.
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On August 22 2011 13:07 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing. Reduce banshee damage to non light armored units. I suggested this about a dozen pages ago and people couldn't really argue against it.
but then it wouldnt counter ultralisks hard like it says in the help guide  . Honestly though, they took the wraith and gave it super high attack. A unit that high tech shouldn't be so quick or cheap to get. Conversely, if you think its low tech, a unit that low tech shouldn't get so much powers. You know how retarded it is to be hellioned in your mineral line after pushing as hard as possible to get out a defense by cutting drones to get spines and speedling or roach, only to turn around and have 5 banshees instasnipe your queens, and then snipe your spores?
The problem is the do ridiculous amounts of damage for cost to begin with. Lets not forget they are LESS gas than a siege tank, while doing nearly as much damage They are slightly more expensive in mineral as a compensation, and yet that synergizes perfectly with mules doesn't it? Anyway, it should be apparent the idea was that these would be used to quickly snipe down ground based T3 units, if all the background write ups and help files can be believed, and yet its so highly damaging to everything else. its a flying colossus without splash but with cloak.
Also, reducing damage to non-lights would actually mean that its +(whatever) to light to keep its damage the same, and then we're in the same boat with hydralisks again, where damage is way over the top and snipes your units faster than they can have made themselves cost effective.
The problem is the unit is flimsy and not overly deadly late game, but completely overpowering early game. it forces so much specialized response JUST to get rid of it, that the terran can mass marines and roll you with stim.
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On August 22 2011 13:17 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 13:07 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 13:05 NicolBolas wrote:On August 22 2011 12:28 Brian333 wrote:
I think the most frustrating thing is the general community response to this entire debacle.
Zergs have problems with 5-rax reaper rush -- Reapers are nerfed hard.
Zergs have problems with 2-rax openings -- Bunkers are nerfed.
Zergs have problems with air-openings -- Spore Crawler root timing is decreased.
Zergs have problems with 2-gate openings -- Zealot build time nerfed.
Zergs have problems with Blink-Stalker all-ins -- Fungal Growth changed to stop Blink.
Zergs have problems with various early-game pressure / all-ins -- Roach range increased to 4.
Terrans have problems with Voidray harass / contain / all-in builds -- Voidrays are nerfed hard.
Protoss have problems with 4-gate v 4-gate in PvP -- Warp-gate nerfed, Pylon power range nerfed.
Protoss / Zerg have problems with stim-timing pushes -- Stim research nerfed.
Blizzard has shown time and time again that in a game that has yet to reach meta-game stability and strategic maturity that if the margin of error is too thin on the defender's side and the execution too easy on the aggressor's side, adjustments are made. Yet...
Protoss have problems with 1/1/1 -- DEAL WITH IT Let's assume that everything you just said was true. I don't think it is, as others have pointed out. But let's assume that those changes were made specifically and solely to deal with the particular issues you identified above. Each of those changes were targeted and focused. They changed a single, specific aspect of a race. They tried to affect a specific thing and nothing beyond that specific thing. What targeted, focused change would you suggest to deal with 1/1/1? Nerfing MULEs? That's hardly a focused change, as it would affect the Terrans throughout mid and late game. Nerf Marines? Same problem. Nerf Tanks or Vikings? It's a staple unit; you can't just go around nerfing it, because then the Terrans will be vulnerable to something else. If 1/1/1 is a problem, there is no simple single thing you can change that will fix everything without simultaneously breaking tons of other stuff. So even if Blizzard decides to fix it pre-HOTS, it's not going to be a quick, easy thing. Reduce banshee damage to non light armored units. I suggested this about a dozen pages ago and people couldn't really argue against it. This actually seems like a pretty good idea.
As with all balance changes, you need to attempt to make arguments against it. Would this break anything else?
In any matchup? Would it hurt TvZ? Is there a zerg build where terrans only response is banshees?
Remember. Damage to lights are the same, so drone harass is unaffected.
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On August 22 2011 13:15 Flonomenalz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:59 Medrea wrote:On August 22 2011 12:56 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmm this is really tough, I keep thinking about it more and more, and as a Z player (although I watch a TON of games from all races, it's still a poor substitute to actually playing them), this is SO hard for P to stop, especially on close positions or small 1v1 maps like xel naga. I dunno what they should even do... I calculated what would happen based off of MC's mining between the first and second push (a rough estimate, but pretty accurate) if he went colossus tech. He would have had 1 colossus with ETL just barely maybe finishing with (I'd assume he'd get more stalkers with this route for banshees/raven) around 10 stalkers, a few zealots, 2 sentries, and 3 immortals (left over from first push).
Do you guys think that would've held? I think he might've had to sac his nexus for ETL to finish, I'm not sure, it depends on when Puma attacked and how careful he was... damn this is so strong. Definitely a huge challenge for P, it'll be interesting to see if P can respond to this or if it needs a nerf somehow... idk how you would nerf it though.
However if I may say one thing, all the immature idiots just screaming and bitching OP need to calm down or get out of this thread. You're not helping anything, and NONE of you are going to ever face such a well executed 1/1/1 ever, so stop crying. Well executed 1-1-1's happen on the ladder all the time. The problem with that explicit situation you were describing is another problem with the 1-1-1, its not really an all in. Even if the push is held.... 1-1-1 take two can come down and kill you anyway. And it's tough to ascertain if the terran is done with the first wave or is coming down with a second one. In GM, sure, maybe high masters. But no way it happens anywhere beyond that. I realize that 1/1/1 part 2 can come kill you, which is what happened. But the reason that happened is that MC overmade probes because he lost his scouting obs. He just send it in a straight line to the T base, instead of around the corners in the same way you would send a banshee or medivac into a base. He needed to be making units instead of probes. That lost obs scout was so huge.
I don't get it. Even with "overmade " probes when they pull up the economy tab it was equivalent. And isn't the lack of an the expansion already a big indicator that a second push is incoming? It's a pretty safe bet that it would come especially when the raven actually survived the first push. Considering how many marines were left in the final battle, let's say MC skipped 6 probes and he had 3 more zealots. That wouldn't have helped in the final battle vs the marines and banshees. The limiting factor was gas for stalkers that would take out those 3 banshees. If that push was more refined, the raven and marines would snipe any observer, making the situation much much worse. And also remember that Puma got one of his banshee sniped. There could have been 4 banshees at that 2nd push. There are as many mistakes with Puma's attack as with MC's defense.
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I have some questions for this 1/1/1 build. When does the first wave hit in game clock approximately? Do you get cloak on banshee? Can you get a raven after the first banshee or 2?
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On August 22 2011 11:09 Ravencruiser wrote:Further proof, I'll word it this way, why "Protoss is at an IMMENSE disadvantage in PvT" (instead of 1/1/1 IMBA! cries). WATCH THESE GAMES between the Chinese pro xiaOt and none other than MarineKing: First game: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzMTg0MTQw.htmlRecap: xiaOt opens 1 gate FE, while MKP goes for 1/1/1 with marines/siege tanks/banshees. MKP scouts the fast FE and proceeds to push, while xiaOt scouts the 1/1/1 with a probe shortly before. With 3 gate (4th warping) and a robo pumping immortals, AND a near perfect 3 way flank, he crushes the 1/1/1 push and proceeds to deny MKP's natural and win the game. Exactly what the OP said, 1/1/1 can be held off with the extra income from 1 gate FE. Second game: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjYzMTg3NTk2.htmlRecap: xiaOt opens 1 gate FE yet again, while MKP goes for a strong 2 rax (reactor + tech lab) scv push in correct anticipation of the 1 gate FE. xiaOt has 3 warp gates and a robo when the push hits, but has like 5 units in total so he's forced to give up the natural expo. MKP goes for a bunker contain at the protoss ramp, and the game at this point should be, essentially over. However, xiaOt played AMAZING this game, choosing to make a warp prism and counters the terran base forcing MKP to pull his army back to defend, killing all but 7 SCVs (he keeps 3 sentries at his ramp for defense). Then, the Chinese commentators point to just how good (imba, if you will) the mules are; MKP has 2 orbitals, and he pumps SCVs none stop with mules, somehow surpassing the protoss' ~26 probes in mineral income and looks to be in a very good shape (xiaOt stopped probes/tech/expansion during his counter). xiaOt had however, ninja'ed a probe out with his warp prism earlier and ninjas an expansion, which remains unscouted for most of the game - a huge blunder on MKP's part. With this ninja expo, xiaOt holds the next terran bio push at his natural with some very nice FF usage and the game goes to a late game where xiaOt eventually wins. Again, exactly as the OP says, if protosses gambles on a 1 gate FE, they will lose their natural expo and subsequently the game if the terran player goes for any sort of 2 rax pushes. Conclusion: 1/1/1 with marines/tanks/banshees can be held off with 1 gate FE, but the protoss is forced to guess whether the terran player is actually going for 1/1/1 or a 2 rax pressure. If the protoss player guesses wrong, he dies, simple as that. But for the terran player, it's still possible to play an even or slightly behind game despite his initial build order choice. TLDR: Further evidence confirming the OP, the (option of doing) 1/1/1 gives Terran players a huge advantage over their protoss opponents.
This sums up the essence of the problem mostly. But if the protoss player gets 2 gates after his 1 gate FE he can hold the 2 rax pressure (Huk PVT 1 gate FE & variants). the Problem is the terran could be more committed than 2 rax. Also the timing of observer coming out could be real tight if the terran is crisp with his banshee/cloak.
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All the problems with all-in come from MULE imo, there should be some punishment on Terran pulling SCV in a game. I watched Rain vs Cat today, 1 scv vs 26 drones and yet he still in the game. That's ridiculously stupid anyway.
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On August 22 2011 12:48 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2011 12:45 Finchy711 wrote:
I'm really surprised that no one has mentioned a quick scout and gas steal to throw off the 1/1/1 timing. The 1/1/1 is a tech build meaning that it is limited by gas with a marine mineral dump so anything you can do to delay said tech will put you in a better position to defend against it.
Also another thing to mention is that before stim or CS comes out stalkers pretty much have complete map control which allows great poke/harass. The reason this is important is because, from what I understand, the best way to hold off this push is to delay it as much as possible (hence gas steal in the first place) with something like a 1gate +robo FE (Cella). Correct me if I'm wrong but no variation of 1/1/1 includes marauders (with or w/o CS) or stim? And if they do come with CS or stim that means less tanks/banshees/raven i.e. support for the marines.
If you delay the T enough then robo tech gives you all you need to defend against the 1/1/1 variations. i.e. obs for cloak, immortals for tanks, colo for marines. Also 1gate robo allows you to scout which variation it will be quickly w/ obs.
Just some thoughts I had while reading this thread, criticism welcome. The 1-1-1 is a very thick build. Stealing the gas not only doesn't stop it, it only slightly changes the outcome.
Not sure what you read there but the gas steal isn't meant to stop 1/1/1 it's meant to delay it. I'm pretty sure if T doesn't get the second gas quickly (~16food) then this push won't come at 9mins and if it does it won't be nearly as strong. I'm not sure if you've ever watched 1-2 marines try to kill an assimilator but it doesn't happen instantly. (Usually 1 b/c of reactor going down after first marine, which is obviously used to deny further scouting) Also it would be good to note here that if the marine/s are targeting the assim then that leaves your probe alive to figure out what T is doing.
So if by "only slightly changing the outcome" you mean delaying it by the lost gas mining time to take advantage of your much faster expo then yes you're 100% correct.
You also failed to acknowledge that a change in BO is still something that you have to account for which in itself throws off the timing.
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EPT
