EPTOn May 05 2014 09:22 plogamer wrote:
2 rax was brought up in comparison in reply to a post on the power of P rushes.
Show nested quote +
On May 05 2014 09:03 Big J wrote:
The discussion has been about skill ceiling of 2rax all along. Not about the power of P rushes. It's been about the difficulty of the execution, not about the difficulty of holding it. It's not semantic, it's a whole different discussion that you want to go into which was never my point, since I have been very clear on that topic for ages now.
On May 05 2014 08:50 plogamer wrote:
I just don't see anyone who can think of 2 rax being as equally difficult for Zergs as Protoss openers are for Terrans. That's the point of the discussion. Discussion with you is turning semantic at this point. "Lower skill ceiling" vs "minimum requirement". Sheesh.
On May 05 2014 08:23 Big J wrote:
The comparison is between a TvZ 2rax (as was the original point of Pinhead) and an oracle rush (what you pointed out).
TvP 2rax is dead and requires incredible greed or missplay from the Protoss.
Scouting is not a minor difference in a game. But it doesnt influence the skill ceiling of a rush. Winning because your opponent didnt scout it doesnt lower the ceiling, it raises the minimum requirement to beat it for the opponent. And of course its average strenght (since people make mistakes). But that has nothing to do with you being able to execute the rush better if training it harder.
On May 05 2014 08:02 plogamer wrote:
You forgot that Terran has no way to punish failed Protoss proxies but failed 2 Rax is very punishable for any Protoss. Photon overcharge man.
/edit
Just look at any recent TvP at the top level. Where do you see 2 rax smashing Protoss left and right? To call it comparable is an exaggeration.
/edit
The lack of predictability doesn't just make Protoss openers different. You brush it aside as minor difference but any RTS player knows that kind of intel is HUGE. It makes the Protoss openers stronger in practice (over paper) because it adds a level of challenge that 2 rax does not have.
On May 05 2014 07:51 Big J wrote:
The builds themselves are very compareable. The difference is that with 2rax you always know it is a 2rax if you scout the enemy main, while with proxy oracles, unless you scout the SG you dont know. it could be other stuff too.
Not to mention there is only one real 2rax timing, but plenty of SG timings. Scouting a 2rax with a main base scout is like scouting a SG the moment it starts building. So you have way more information about the enemy build.
That's what makes 2rax so much less stupid, you know what and when. Even though it can still kill you, but you're not going to face blink stalkers with turrets, but marines with the defense of your choice.
On May 05 2014 07:36 plogamer wrote:
Come on now. Anyone can see that 2 rax in no way, shape, or form compares to all the Protoss shenanigans that can instakill Terrans.
2 Rax, if scouted and defended, puts you further behind than if a Protoss opens proxy oracles, gets scouted and defended.
On May 05 2014 07:24 Big J wrote:
Oh please... 2rax has been all ober the ladder for 3years now. It works because it is a strong build, even if scouted (though naturally stronger when not)
It's not half as hard as you make it sound. All the decisions involves like attacking the lings or attacking the hatch - sometimes either is right or either is wrong.
It's strength mainly results of a lot of tiny, often blind and mapdependend decisions people make. Most of the stuff you can influence is simple knowledge that you get from practicing the build like any other rush. Very compareable to a canonrush. MKP and Maru are Prime examples because they are known for grinding them like no others. It's the same story for any build - though builds weaker in its nature like a 1base 4gate are hardly worth the training.
On May 05 2014 06:25 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
This would be true except for the fact that no one, and I mean no one, can micro marines perfectly. Their attack delay is so short that not even Maru or Marineking can stutterstep flawlessly, and probably only about 7 terrans in the world at most can stutter-step close to perfectly while simultaneously holding position on scvs, switching scv position to surround, and block off carefully chosen specific angles.
Also, 2rax is very positioning-dependent. You must make on-the-fly decisions in where to build bunkers, where to position scvs, where to stutter-step to, and then you have to make further decisions in deciding when to retreat, when to back off, when to press forward and go for the kill, when to kill lings instead of the hatch, when to kill the hatch instead of lings or drones, etc. etc.
The difficulty of this build is evidenced by the very, very small group of terrans who can make a 2rax work by outplaying their opponent even if scouted. The majority of all terrans can't pull that off because they aren't good enough, and even those who can consistently win with it even when scouted (maybe 4) still don't do it perfectly.
On May 05 2014 04:59 ROOTFayth wrote:
[quote]
you have exactly 1 type of unit to micro while macroing off 2 barracks, how hard can it really get, I mean seriously, small amount of marines aren't extremely hard to micro, sure some people can fuck up more than others but saying the skill ceiling is very high is laughable
[quote]
you have exactly 1 type of unit to micro while macroing off 2 barracks, how hard can it really get, I mean seriously, small amount of marines aren't extremely hard to micro, sure some people can fuck up more than others but saying the skill ceiling is very high is laughable
This would be true except for the fact that no one, and I mean no one, can micro marines perfectly. Their attack delay is so short that not even Maru or Marineking can stutterstep flawlessly, and probably only about 7 terrans in the world at most can stutter-step close to perfectly while simultaneously holding position on scvs, switching scv position to surround, and block off carefully chosen specific angles.
Also, 2rax is very positioning-dependent. You must make on-the-fly decisions in where to build bunkers, where to position scvs, where to stutter-step to, and then you have to make further decisions in deciding when to retreat, when to back off, when to press forward and go for the kill, when to kill lings instead of the hatch, when to kill the hatch instead of lings or drones, etc. etc.
The difficulty of this build is evidenced by the very, very small group of terrans who can make a 2rax work by outplaying their opponent even if scouted. The majority of all terrans can't pull that off because they aren't good enough, and even those who can consistently win with it even when scouted (maybe 4) still don't do it perfectly.
Oh please... 2rax has been all ober the ladder for 3years now. It works because it is a strong build, even if scouted (though naturally stronger when not)
It's not half as hard as you make it sound. All the decisions involves like attacking the lings or attacking the hatch - sometimes either is right or either is wrong.
It's strength mainly results of a lot of tiny, often blind and mapdependend decisions people make. Most of the stuff you can influence is simple knowledge that you get from practicing the build like any other rush. Very compareable to a canonrush. MKP and Maru are Prime examples because they are known for grinding them like no others. It's the same story for any build - though builds weaker in its nature like a 1base 4gate are hardly worth the training.
Come on now. Anyone can see that 2 rax in no way, shape, or form compares to all the Protoss shenanigans that can instakill Terrans.
2 Rax, if scouted and defended, puts you further behind than if a Protoss opens proxy oracles, gets scouted and defended.
The builds themselves are very compareable. The difference is that with 2rax you always know it is a 2rax if you scout the enemy main, while with proxy oracles, unless you scout the SG you dont know. it could be other stuff too.
Not to mention there is only one real 2rax timing, but plenty of SG timings. Scouting a 2rax with a main base scout is like scouting a SG the moment it starts building. So you have way more information about the enemy build.
That's what makes 2rax so much less stupid, you know what and when. Even though it can still kill you, but you're not going to face blink stalkers with turrets, but marines with the defense of your choice.
You forgot that Terran has no way to punish failed Protoss proxies but failed 2 Rax is very punishable for any Protoss. Photon overcharge man.
/edit
Just look at any recent TvP at the top level. Where do you see 2 rax smashing Protoss left and right? To call it comparable is an exaggeration.
/edit
The lack of predictability doesn't just make Protoss openers different. You brush it aside as minor difference but any RTS player knows that kind of intel is HUGE. It makes the Protoss openers stronger in practice (over paper) because it adds a level of challenge that 2 rax does not have.
The comparison is between a TvZ 2rax (as was the original point of Pinhead) and an oracle rush (what you pointed out).
TvP 2rax is dead and requires incredible greed or missplay from the Protoss.
Scouting is not a minor difference in a game. But it doesnt influence the skill ceiling of a rush. Winning because your opponent didnt scout it doesnt lower the ceiling, it raises the minimum requirement to beat it for the opponent. And of course its average strenght (since people make mistakes). But that has nothing to do with you being able to execute the rush better if training it harder.
I just don't see anyone who can think of 2 rax being as equally difficult for Zergs as Protoss openers are for Terrans. That's the point of the discussion. Discussion with you is turning semantic at this point. "Lower skill ceiling" vs "minimum requirement". Sheesh.
The discussion has been about skill ceiling of 2rax all along. Not about the power of P rushes. It's been about the difficulty of the execution, not about the difficulty of holding it. It's not semantic, it's a whole different discussion that you want to go into which was never my point, since I have been very clear on that topic for ages now.
2 rax was brought up in comparison in reply to a post on the power of P rushes.
In relation to the skill ceiling of said rushes, not their power.
