EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 471
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p14c
Vatican City State431 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
-shorter burrow/unburrow time -faster (not locusts) -enable to queue burrow and rally -enable walk over locusts?, so they can more easily unburrow and retreat right after they spawn locusts. These things would just make them slightly more easier to use. And in battle they would do still same, which is pretty good I think. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
- Can't beat Terran: Win last two major tournaments, taking out Gumiho and Flash in ZvT's. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 28 2013 15:14 larse wrote: To the extend the discussion on swarmhost, I have to say something about all the new units. All HOTS new units feel very peripheral, especially the zerg ones. Compare to the BW addition to SC1, most BW new units are very core units. You have to use medic, valkyrie, lurker, dark templar, and corsair. You just can't play the game without using them. But in HOTS, you don't have to use new units. It's nice to have all the new units but they are just there. Pros can still win games consistently without even look at the new units. What? Most of the new units are completely standard (some only in particular match-ups or scenarii, but still). Mines are standard against Zerg. Hellbats are standard when playing mech. Vipers are standard by lategame against mech or Protoss. Tempests are/will be standard by lategame against Terran (bio or mech), etc. | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On April 28 2013 19:48 Ghanburighan wrote: I'd just like to point out that a lot of Zergs should feel very embarrassed right about now. - Can't beat Terran: Win last two major tournaments, taking out Gumiho and Flash in ZvT's. Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On April 28 2013 15:05 Zarahtra wrote: My experience against SH is really only that if you allow the zerg to stock pile gas, SH becomes an issue, if he can't make like 10+ SHs at once I feel I can stabalize quite quickly and just push through it normally(with mech). With that in mind I'd venture a guess that pro players don't allow the zergs to stockpile enough for SH to be effective(aswell as most just playing bio where SH doesn't work really). But yeah, I don't really like the idea of buffing SH so they are very effective in small numbers, mostly because I feel zerg doesn't need to commit enough gas then into certain units. I already feel vipers are very cheap on gas for the zerg army(since you can suck energy you need so few), adding another cheap unit for great gains is iffy imo. Kinda yes or no on the gas numbers. Viper has pretty low range and Z doesn't tend to have any anti air against mech so when I go to blinding cloud tanks I normally end up losing all of them to vikings | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:40 FCReverie wrote: Kinda yes or no on the gas numbers. Viper has pretty low range and Z doesn't tend to have any anti air against mech so when I go to blinding cloud tanks I normally end up losing all of them to vikings What? 9 is not "pretty low range" and Zergs do have anti-air against mech because they go Hydralisks. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote: Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. Yes and no. It wasn't some lone Zerg that made it to the top, nor did we have some sweep of Zerg in the top 8/16. We probably increased the number of pro games to look at by 50%, so the stats will change tremendously as well. At the very least, it does point out that the feeling many Zergs have expressed in this topic about Terran needing a nerf and being too powerful in ZvT has been overblown. Top Zergs aren't having issues with top Terrans, not in the least. | ||
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( bush
321 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote: Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. Yea we need Xlord and JonnyRecco beating Flash and Innovation 3-0 in a BO5, then we can assume ZvT is balanced. | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:56 TheDwf wrote: What? 9 is not "pretty low range" and Zergs do have anti-air against mech because they go Hydralisks. I normally wouldn't go hydra against mech because they can't hold their own until after the vipers are already out. Until hive I will be building primarily swarm host to force the terran to stay in siege while I tech with either lings or roaches for worker harass on the side bases. And the thors will at least be able to get 1 shot off before the blinding cloud hits due to being 1 more range so every time you blinding cloud you will at least lose a few. | ||
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Aeroplaneoverthesea
United Kingdom1977 Posts
The game seems well balanced to me so far. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
What I would like to see is some buffs towards underused units/styles such as swarmhosts and terran mech. If anything the game pace has become even faster in HOTS which really makes these clunky siege-type units suffer. They either need to be more flexible (faster siege/burrow mechanics) or they simply need to do more damage, because right now they are getting used less and less while mobility (bio/mutas) reigns supreme. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:21 TheDwf wrote: What? Most of the new units are completely standard (some only in particular match-ups or scenarii, but still). Mines are standard against Zerg. Hellbats are standard when playing mech. Vipers are standard by lategame against mech or Protoss. Tempests are/will be standard by lategame against Terran (bio or mech), etc. What would you use them for, ghost/viking snipes? Forcing T to engange and get stormed more easily? I've never gone Tempest myself sounds interesting :O | ||
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Grobbles
United Kingdom16 Posts
On April 27 2013 08:28 dargul wrote: 2 terrans in ro16 DreamHack... Yeh, sure, terrans are imba ![[image loading]](http://chat.sc2tv.ru/img/yao.png?1) Lets be realistic, the terrans in the tournament weren't the best (excluding gumiho and polt) and the imbalance isn't at the highest level of play, its everywhere else, how do you expect bronze/silver and gold players to beat hellbat drops, or win engagements vs 6 widow mines when using units lings banes mutas. Only people with super great control can win these against this. | ||
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oGsTrueSmug
England141 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:57 Grobbles wrote: Lets be realistic, the terrans in the tournament weren't the best (excluding gumiho and polt) and the imbalance isn't at the highest level of play, its everywhere else, how do you expect bronze/silver and gold players to beat hellbat drops, or win engagements vs 6 widow mines when using units lings banes mutas. Only people with super great control can win these against this. When you balance the game around those low level players, you end up with what we had for the last 14 months of WoL: zergs all going infestor/broodlord with some minor variations in how they get there and some all-ins, and every other race having to find ways to deal with it. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12043 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote: Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. You can't look at tournament win rates. Tournament win rates (when looking at Dreamhack) for example would show people lower down getting crushed which would skew the data far too much. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:57 Grobbles wrote: Lets be realistic, the terrans in the tournament weren't the best (excluding gumiho and polt) and the imbalance isn't at the highest level of play, its everywhere else, how do you expect bronze/silver and gold players to beat hellbat drops, or win engagements vs 6 widow mines when using units lings banes mutas. Only people with super great control can win these against this. Really? How is this any different from terran having to deal with marines vs banelings in WOL, where everyone thought it was just fine? I feel there is a much greater balance even for lower level games, now that both sides have things that are imbalanced at low level. If you don't like that, just learn to macro and you'll be masters in no time. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:57 Grobbles wrote: Lets be realistic, the terrans in the tournament weren't the best (excluding gumiho and polt) and the imbalance isn't at the highest level of play, its everywhere else, how do you expect bronze/silver and gold players to beat hellbat drops, or win engagements vs 6 widow mines when using units lings banes mutas. Only people with super great control can win these against this. Sigh, we've had to listen to "I'm too bad at the game to micro my marines, please nerf X" from Terran players throughout the entirety of WoL, and now Zergs are going to join the pity train? | ||
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SlixSC
666 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:34 FCReverie wrote: Winning tournaments doesn't mean anything. You can cherry pick any piece of data you want. Have you checked the tournament winrates for example? Something like 55% T 50% Z and 45% P. I'd just be interested to know where in the world you got these numbers from? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0 Are you one of these people who are in the business of making up random statistics to prove a point? | ||
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TimENT
United States1425 Posts
On April 29 2013 02:30 Toadvine wrote: Sigh, we've had to listen to "I'm too bad at the game to micro my marines, please nerf X" from Terran players throughout the entirety of WoL, and now Zergs are going to join the pity train? If Terrans are complaining about it being incredibly hard to micro U vs. V, Zergs are complaining about it being incredibly hard to micro W vs X, and Protoss are complaining about it being incredibly to micro Y vs. Z, we are finally in a good place. As of now, Terran and Zerg are both incredibly hard to play at the diamond/masters level. Protoss still has it pretty easy at the diamond/masters level. Hopefully, the next game makes it hard for Protoss like it's hard for Z and T now. Once it's hard for everyone at the masters/diamond level, we've reached where we want to be | ||
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